Need Help: Teaching proper sight alignment

[PS Paul]

Hi, fellas. I need some helpful advice on something I have struggled with over the years and I KNOW the good folks on Castboolits can help with this.
Over the years, I have taken many new shooters out for the first time. Although we, as regular shooters, take the basics of proper iron sight alignment for granted, I have had some difficulties in teaching "what proper sight alignment should look like" to some folks. I took my daughter's 18 year-old boyfriend out with us yesterday and started him off with a .22lr single-action pistol with a hog trough sight to get started. I made a little drawing on a piece of paper to show what he should be looking for, but he still couldn't quite get it, so we switched over to a security six with mild 158 gr. SWC boolits over light bullseye charge to see if it would be easier with the adjustable blade sights.
I made a new drawing and adjusted the sights for a six o'clock hold. We brought over a pistol rest and he started to get in the black with most of the shots after I watched him for a few cylinders full.
While watching and coaching, it dawned on me the guys on the forum might be able to offer either A: some printed sight alignment "photo" of what to look for with a link making it easy for me to print, or B: maybe some "analogy" that might help explain it in terms other than what I've used.
I have seen in the past some printed tutorials on the subject, but I felt if I put it out there on the forum, I could get many different opinions/thoughts on what has worked for some of you over the years.
Ultimately, he started getting pretty decent groups for his first time out, but the light did not go "on" as quickly as I had figured, if that makes sense?

I have a knack for displaying tremendous patience and understanding, which is what it took with him. In the end, I really felt we had accomplished something, but he told me on the way home he was not picturing exactly what to look for until he started getting consistent hits.
Thanks and I will be looking forward to some great suggestions!!
Paul

[williamwaco]

I feel your pain.

I have tried that many times over many years - trying to describe it, and by drawing pictures. Seems I never have photos in my range kit.

Some people just don't get it - even with a picture.

I just can't get how they can't get it,

get it?


.

[500MAG]

This is a darn good question and I am looking forward to hearing what the guys have to say. I have the same problem with my kids. I try to tell them what to do and can't seem to get good results. I know I am a horrible teacher but I feel I am telling them the same way I was taught. At least you thought of drawing it.

[PS Paul]

I felt with all the video games kids play nowadays, that sight alignment is just second nature for them, but it ain't so!!

[OBIII]

There are tremendous variations in sight picture from gun to gun. Adj. front, adj. rear, round front post, square front post, v notch rear, square notch rear, rear peep, etc., etc.. I would suggest two handguns, say a .22 and a .38, with different type of sights, i.e. notch and square. Pictures to show what is happening with each different sight. Let them practice on one until they understand what it is that they are doing, then switch them to a different sight. Best I can suggest.

[500MAG]

At the age of 8, I was given a Daisy BB Rifle. I remember getting the tar beat out of me by my Grandfather for shooting flies off the pump house cover. The cover was fiberglass and got full of holes. When I graduated to a real gun, I had the sight thing down. You mention the video games and that may be the problem. My boys play them all day. I handed them a BB gun and they couldn't hit a tin can at 10 yards.

[Artful]

When I was teaching handgun Bullseye shooting.

I made up a stick gun with oversized sights in colored paper.
Sort of like this but with sights stuck on it.
http://www.toxel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/woodengadgets13.jpg

Made up a front sight in orange and a rear sight in white then made up a target with the
Bullseye and in the Navy 6 o'clock position had in grey, the outline of what the sights should look like.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/images/04-24-08-hold.jpg

Had them hold the simulated gun out with one hand at arms length then move it until all the grey disappeared which would leave them in perfect alighment. Worked for me! Seemed to help them get a grasp on it before wasting ammo. One of my fellow instructors made his up out of some sheet cellophane stuff that he and they could see thru, he liked it but I didn't.
So to each his own.

For my wife who knows what to look at I use the laser to check her pull and follow thru for dry fire. In the old days we would take a sharpened pencil and put in the barrel of our 1911's and "shoot the wall" - put up paper with a reduced sized target on the wall and when the hammer kicked the pencil forward it would leave a dot so you could get a group indicator.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/upfiles/10553/A0DA01C9023542EFB6260B938D73951E.gif

One thing I did to help the kids - taped a neco wafer over the center of the bullseye - seemed to make them improve their concentration.

I didn't teach Junior rifle but did help with friends kids - so I would say start them off with peep sight on long barrel and large target with reactive backstop.

example: balloon floating on a pond. then work it down to a large leaf then a small leaf floating on the water, then after getting 100% hits move to slow moving creek and go back up to large leaf, etc.

after they get the hang of that you can move on to reactive targets like these

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Do-All-Impact-Seal-Ground-Bouncing-Targets/1217809.uts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Wp-gcD6_Q

[BD]

I found that the first thing is to determine eye dominance, Then FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT FRONT SIGHT! Most of time, inability to "Get" the sight picture is rooted in the failure to focus the front sight. This is primary, Alignment to the rear sight is secondary. Most first time shooters are so focused on the target that sight alignment gets lost.
BD

[PS Paul]

BD, great point! I discovered he was "left-eye dominant", but a right-handed shooter during the session. You are absolutely right about focusing on the target, which is what he tried at first until I made the front sight-focus the main focus of the lesson.

I had to repeat this-very patiently- severl times during the session.

[PS Paul]

Artful, your bullseye photo is exactly what I am looking for PLUS the info on the wafer to keep 'em interested! Perfect! I also like the idea of the cardboard gun.

We're gettin' somewhere on this......

[akajun]

Ill second the notion for starting him off with a rifle with a peep sight. Then repeating, "focus on the front sight"" the target should be blurry". coupled with a "dont jerk the trigger, add pressure till it breaks, Dont try to break a perfect shot, just concentrate on focusing your vision on the front sight as you add pressure"

When he gets that, then switch him to a pistol type leaf sight, in which you have to align the rear as well.

[PS Paul]

The only remaining peep sight rifle I've got is a model 70 in .458 win mag! LOL! Not going to do that to him.....
I do have scoped rifles and express-sighted rifles as well as buckhorn types. After this last session, he asked to shoot rifles with me, so we are going to try a scoped .22 and an old Mauser with battle-sights on it (classic ladder with v notch).
We reached a point where he did understand what I was attempting to convey, but I suppose good "visual aids" would be most helpful.

[375RUGER]

You may have to blind that left eye if he is going to shoot right handed.
If he can learn to shoot left handed even better. I've run into this quite a bit when I was helping boy scouts get their rifle and shotgun merit badges. In most instances they had been shooting with the off eye for quite some time. Putting a blinder on the dominate eye put shots in the black and earned merit badges.

Son number 1 is a lefty, but right eye dominant. He shoots right handed. Gun and bow. I knew it early and made him aware of the complications, he choose to shoot right handed.

Since he is a new shooter I suggest he put forth some serious effort to learn to shoot with the "right" hand. Or just stick with scoped guns.

I hope someone here can chime in with their personal experience with this.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

make your drawings on the pages used for overhead projectors , the clear plastic sheets with the target the front sight then the rear sight

make one for each type of sight you want to show them , they had some made up like this a few weeks ago when i took my certification to teach juniors pistol

they had some others cut from cardboard so that they could be lined up showing the proper aliment

i have also set a gun on a rest then taken a picture to show people some times just taking a picture of it then flipping the camera to view and showing them what they are doing

another trick is to use a hand mirror hold it at the end of the barrel and you will look back and see if they have the alinement correct you will see their eye and the sight

[PS Paul]

Green county, this is TERRIFIC stuff!! All 3 are ideas I never would have come up with on my own. See, I KNEW you guys wouldn't disappoint.

[Larry Gibson]

I found that the first thing is to determine eye dominance, Then FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT FRONT SIGHT! Most of time, inability to "Get" the sight picture is rooted in the failure to focus the front sight. This is primary, Alignment to the rear sight is secondary. Most first time shooters are so focused on the target that sight alignment gets lost.
BD

That is exactly my experience in 40+ years instructing soldiers (male and female). Even old shooters would not really know how to focus on the front sight instead of the target. They wondered why they could only barely qualify with rifle or handgun until I made them focus on the front sight........

Larry Gibson

[PS Paul]

Thanks for all the great stuff so far, everyone! I failed to mention that at some point during all this, I handed the .22 single-action to my daughter who turned around and put 4 cylinders-full into about 3" off-hand at 20 yds. while her boyfriend was still struggling to grasp the whoe sight picture and alignment thing!! This may have made him a little "stressed"! Ha-Ha!!

So far I have several good visual aids to add to my coaching tool kit and lots of great suggestions about other teaching tools. Please, keep 'em comin!!!

[sthwestvictoria]

Today I was coincidentally looking for rifle peep sight information and came across this for the hangun:

http://www.owrpc.co.uk/Applications/ironadjust.pdf

It may be helpful.

[Moonman]

1) Establish eye dominance. You should learn to shoot with dominate eye and the dominate hand the same. If CROSS DOMINATE, you can shoot a pistol well because you can move your head over or tilt the pistol some, but will have GREAT PROBLEMS shooting a rifle and shotgun well, if much at all accurately due to the long sighting radius. There are people who NEVER DISCOVER THIS IS WHY THEY SHOOT POORLY WITH A RIFLE OR SHOTGUN.

2) FOCUS on the FRONT SIGHT. The REAR SIGHT and TARGET will be slightly out of focus, and that's OK as your eyes only focus on one thing at a time. The Front Sight is the IMPORTANT POINT OF YOUR FOCUS.

3) Shoot from a Bench Rest until the shooter has The Basics Down, (Trigger Control, Sight Alignment, Aiming, Breathing, Follow Through, etc.) and can PRODUCE A GROUP. To reduce STRESS in a new shooter, TURN A TARGET AROUND and shoot at the BLANK backside. This is LESS INTIMIDATING TO THEM.

WE DO NOT CARE WHERE THE SHOOTERS GROUP HITS THE BLANK TARGET. We only want them to be able to GROUP the HITS TOGETHER somewhere on the target.

When then can produce a group, we teach them HOW TO ADJUST THE SIGHTS TO MOVE THAT GROUP TO THE CENTER OF THE TARGET. Different types of shooting require different aiming points, ONE IS THE "SIX O'CLOCK HOLD" which is like a whole balloon sitting atop the front sight, and the "Point Of Impact" (POI) hold, where the bullet hits the point that you aim at.

YOU ADJUST THE SIGHTS IN THE DIRECTION YOU WANT THE TARGET HIT TO MOVE.
If you need the the bullets to move to the RIGHT to hit the BULLSEYE, you move the sights TO THE RIGHT, if you need them to MOVE UP, Move the SIGHTS UP.

The 6 O'Clock Hold is used in "BULLSEYE" TARGET SHOOTING, and the Point Of Impact Sight (P.O.I.) Hold is used in COMBAT Type Shooting or Hunting.

An ADVANCED shooting technique after you become an accomplished shooter, is called POINT SHOOTING, but that's down the road, study and LEARN THE BASICS FIRST, and have fun.

ONE OTHER THING, DON'T START A NEW SHOOTER OUT WITH A 357 OR 44 MAGNUM JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE ONE. RECOIL FEAR AND DEVELOPING A FLINCH IS NOT COOL AT ALL TO NEW SHOOTERS TRYING TO LEARN. PLEASE DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

.22s are just fine to learn the shooting fundamentals with.

GOOD SHOOTING!!!!!!:Fire:

[captaint]

You guys are right.... It ain't easy teaching new shooters, young or old. I find that more often than not we find new people grabbing & pushing the handgun, anticipating recoil and yanking the trigger. I try to tell them forget the recoil. You can't change it. It should be a surprise when the gun goes bang. If you have a revolver, it helps for instruction purposes, to leave an empty chamber somewhere in the mix and watch what happends. Hopefully, the new shooter will see what happends too... enjoy Mike

[cajun shooter]

I went to the FBI Firearms instructor school in 1981 and after the2 week school became the instructor for my 600 man department. I also taught several smaller departments in the area and even taught at the LSU Law enforcement school.
The NRA is a large source of Instructive material if you have yourself attended any of the schools they put on.
Teaching shooting is not all the front sight and trigger control. You have to be trained yourself and learn about lesson plans, goals and the use of training aids if you intend on making your classes have some back bone that will stand up to being looked at.
A lot of people are jumping on the band wagon to collect the dollars for teaching CCW classes, they themselves don't have the needed paper work.
You have to include several items besides shooting like when to shoot for a very important one. Later David

[Moonman]

The NRA BASIC PISTOL COURSE is an excellent learning course.

You can then progress to an NRA PISTOL INSTRUCTORS COURSE.

Advanced NRA Courses are offered beyond those. Personal Protection In The Home,
Personal Protection Outside The Home, RIFLE, SHOTGUN, RELOADING Instructor courses, Refuse To Be A Victim.

Many fine Shooting schools exist but are very PRICEY, ALA Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Sig Academy, MAS 40/80/120, as well as some others taught by LEO'S both current and former.

People involved in CCW training are a varied lot to begin with due to different state laws on the subject.

Just learning to shoot a firearm correctly is one thing, carrying a firearm daily is a very serious personal responsibility and should not be taken lightly.

[KCSO]

Artful has it after you check each student doe dominance you use his chart and dummy gun till you get solid results. I had a device that fri on a rifle so the coach could watch the sights too and TELL the student, There thats what you need to see.

[PS Paul]

Man, I'm overwhelmed with gratitude, folks! Southwest Victoria, the attachment you offered is superb and also is exactly the thing I'm looking for!

I don't have the difficulties in teaching the basics and if you look at the OP, you will see we started with a .22 and a .38 with light loads. As always, I slip in an empty chamber in the cylinder (I don't start newbies with auto-pistols, ever....) and we noticed an "anticipation of recoil" drop-down immediately, even with very light loads, so the switchover to a rest was the next move.

Although I am aware of schools out there, I ahve always felt the intimate session with a friend or family member, WHO IS PATIENT(!), is the best way to learn for those who I've taught- and I have taught dozens of folks over four decades of shooting. Might be different for others since some folks do learn more "efficiently" in a controlled classroom environment, but every last one of the folks who I have introduced to shooting has approached me, so I figure they do not want the classroom environment.

So again, thanks to all of you for offering all the terrific suggestions and visual aids! The stuff is priceless and this is exactly why I just LOVE this forum (and do not participate in or even LURK on other sites) and keep coming back! If anyone has more of the "visual aids" offerings, I plan to print them, make copies and share with a few folks who also give basic instructions and keep copies in my range bags always.

[Moonman]

PS Paul,

You just might GOOGLE

The Encyclopdia of Bullseye Shooting (it contains a wealth of information)

[PS Paul]

Moonman, it looks as if the page Southwest Vicoria sent is directly from the bullseye shooting encyclopedia site. Really cool!
I had no idea such a site existed. Man, this newfangled interweb thing is just full of surprises!! LOL!!
Great tip. Thank you VERY much for that!
Paul

[PS Paul]

Moonman, I just re-read your earlie post about classes. Kinda funny, I actually paid for two of our employees back in spring to go to frontsite and take the course! Both guys were former military, but they really enjoyed it and said they actually learned a lot- including some "re-learning" to drop some habits they had picked up in the military!

It seems I often give and do without myself (ha-ha)! Next Time I am going to go and not send one other guy!!
Paul

[MtGun44]

I have taught a lot and in my experience, it is best to eliminate as many of the
"issues" as possible. THE first thing is dominant eye test. Critical, critical, critical.

Once the dominant eye is identified, and what that actually means is explained,
I start with a Ruger Std Auto, sandbag rest and a max range of 15 ft. The bull is
a 1" black dot on a large featureless target. After briefing with drawings, I have two
cardboard oversized sights and show how they can move, laying them on a properly
scaled bullseye and moving both of the to show what you are trying to do. Sometimes
I put a target paster or even two or three strips of "transparent" (translucent) tape
on the lense of the non-dominant eye. Not all need it, but it helps many in the
beginning. Reduce the number of new things to learn. Learning it all is MASSIVE
overload.

Then ONE round is put in the gun. Sitting, sandbag, quiet gun with no recoil and really
decent sights. THE KEY POINT is to make the target CLOSE and SMALL so they can
INSTANTLY SEE THE RESULT OF EACH SHOT!
This instant feedback on each shot by just looking is very important, and why
I start them very close.

Usually the first shot is great, then the second is pretty good too, and the third is
wild (which is only 2-3" off at this very short range) - shows them how much error
happens when they fail to concentrate, yet doesn't "lose" the shot which is good
to keep from frustration.

The only things they are working on are sight alignment and trigger squeeze. All
else is eliminated or seriously minimized. Slowly add some of the other factors,
like loading from the mag, operation of the safety, then loading, then finally standing
(all still very close). Then move to 12 yds or so, and it all gets much harder.

This has worked for many students, and especially women - they often progress to
shooting a 1911 at 12 yds with full power 200 gr SWC in a few hours - IF THEY
WANT TO. NO pushing.

Bill

[Artful]

I always found the women easier to teach - they actually listen and ask questions.

[10x]

snip

2) FOCUS on the FRONT SIGHT. The REAR SIGHT and TARGET will be slightly out of focus, and that's OK as your eyes only focus on one thing at a time. The Front Sight is the IMPORTANT POINT OF YOUR FOCUS.

snip

Moonman is right on! I can not stress how important it is to focus on the front sight.

Also (like a shotgun) kids should practice a good cheek weld on the stock when they are looking down the sights. If the stock is forcing their dominant eye to the left or allowing it to go too far to the right, or forcing the eye up, they are not going to get a good sight picture. If the stock is too low, they can always raise their head. Just a like a shotgun stock fit is important when shooting with open sights. I discovered this with a target rifle. I could not get my head low enough and to the right enough to see through the peep to see both the front sight and the target. A half hour of very carefully removing wood from the stock I could see the front sight through the peep without any discomfort or force.

[PS Paul]

I always found the women easier to teach - they actually listen and ask questions.

Ha-ha!! THAT is so very true! Hence my daughter stepping up to the line and just pastin' the target over and over---to the surprise and chagrin of her boyfriend.

I gotta say, she made her old man proud that day!

[Moonman]

We find that Ladies "PAY ATTENTION" to the instructors.

Many times they out shoot the guys, and do better on the written exam also.

NO TESTOSTERONE getting in the way I guess.

We prefer no previous experience (BAD HABITS TO UN-DO) for the best students.

[10x]

The NRA BASIC PISTOL COURSE is an excellent learning course.

You can then progress to an NRA PISTOL INSTRUCTORS COURSE.

Advanced NRA Courses are offered beyond those. Personal Protection In The Home,
Personal Protection Outside The Home, RIFLE, SHOTGUN, RELOADING Instructor courses, Refuse To Be A Victim.

Many fine Shooting schools exist but are very PRICEY, ALA Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Sig Academy, MAS 40/80/120, as well as some others taught by LEO'S both current and former.

People involved in CCW training are a varied lot to begin with due to different state laws on the subject.

Just learning to shoot a firearm correctly is one thing, carrying a firearm daily is a very serious personal responsibility and should not be taken lightly.

Learning to shoot a firearm safely while under the stress of being under attack is important. More important is safety during the "stand down" after the need to draw a gun is over. That is the time that intense training really serves to reduce accidents and possible injury. During "stand down time" after a very stressful situation ingrained safety habits are paramount to reduce the risk of an accidental discharge. The gunfight ain't over until the gun is "made safe" and secure in a holster.

[Grandpas50AE]

I have taught a lot and in my experience, it is best to eliminate as many of the
"issues" as possible. THE first thing is dominant eye test. Critical, critical, critical.

Once the dominant eye is identified, and what that actually means is explained,
I start with a Ruger Std Auto, sandbag rest and a max range of 15 ft. The bull is
a 1" black dot on a large featureless target. After briefing with drawings, I have two
cardboard oversized sights and show how they can move, laying them on a properly
scaled bullseye and moving both of the to show what you are trying to do. Sometimes
I put a target paster or even two or three strips of "transparent" (translucent) tape
on the lense of the non-dominant eye. Not all need it, but it helps many in the
beginning. Reduce the number of new things to learn. Learning it all is MASSIVE
overload.

Then ONE round is put in the gun. Sitting, sandbag, quiet gun with no recoil and really
decent sights. THE KEY POINT is to make the target CLOSE and SMALL so they can
INSTANTLY SEE THE RESULT OF EACH SHOT!
This instant feedback on each shot by just looking is very important, and why
I start them very close.

Usually the first shot is great, then the second is pretty good too, and the third is
wild (which is only 2-3" off at this very short range) - shows them how much error
happens when they fail to concentrate, yet doesn't "lose" the shot which is good
to keep from frustration.

The only things they are working on are sight alignment and trigger squeeze. All
else is eliminated or seriously minimized. Slowly add some of the other factors,
like loading from the mag, operation of the safety, then loading, then finally standing
(all still very close). Then move to 12 yds or so, and it all gets much harder.

This has worked for many students, and especially women - they often progress to
shooting a 1911 at 12 yds with full power 200 gr SWC in a few hours - IF THEY
WANT TO. NO pushing.

Bill

Great post - I have had the same experience when teaching. Earlier this year I took 3 people on different days to begin their experience (none had any), and all three were shooting moderate 200 gr. LSWC loads in 1911's reasonably well in less than 1 hour.

[Mk42gunner]

Out of all the people I taught to shoot while I was in the Navy, I can think of two glaring examples of "focus on the front sight" failing.

Example #1-- A young female AOAN shooting an M9 Beretta. She couldn't put enough rounds on paper for us to figure out what she was doing wrong. Towards the end of the range session, when my assistant and I had to shoot to qualify for the quarter, we had her between us on the firing line. Looking fromn the side it became obvious, she was focusing on the front sight; but had completely missed the part about aligning the top of the front and rear sights. From her perspective, the front sight was about 1/2" above the rear sight.

Example #2 A young AOAN that was slated to work for me in the Armory, once we got him qualified. M-14 Rifle, 1000 inch range, NO HITS on paper. My Second class was working with him, and told me "Bob, I don't know what the $*)& he is doing, the rear sight isn't loose or anything."

Turned out the kid heard focus on the front sight, but missed the part about looking through the hole in the rear sight. I still don't know how he was seeing aroung the rear aperture.

Sometimes it takes going back through all of the verbal instructions two or three times before the light goes on.

Robert

[Artful]

Out of all the people I taught to shoot while I was in the Navy, I can think of two glaring examples of "focus on the front sight" failing.

Example #1-- A young female AOAN shooting an M9 Beretta. She couldn't put enough rounds on paper for us to figure out what she was doing wrong. Towards the end of the range session, when my assistant and I had to shoot to qualify for the quarter, we had her between us on the firing line. Looking fromn the side it became obvious, she was focusing on the front sight; but had completely missed the part about aligning the top of the front and rear sights. From her perspective, the front sight was about 1/2" above the rear sight.


I had a gal do something similar - cost me flourescent light fixture down by the target wall. :bigsmyl2:

[wv109323]

I heard a basic description of sight alignment that has always stuck with me.
For Highpower rifle it is " An apple on a fence post"
For pistol it is " A pumpkin on a fence post".

[Artful]

I heard a basic description of sight alignment that has always stuck with me.
For Highpower rifle it is " An apple on a fence post"
For pistol it is " A pumpkin on a fence post".

That ain't related to a turtle on a fence post is it? :p

[sthwestvictoria]

Following up from the pistol side I came across this article. It is for rifle rather than open pistol however is jammed packed with great information.

And it is right here on castpics:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/GeneralReference/PeepSightsForHuntingRifles.pdf

[Echo]

+1 for focusing on the front sight - with the further admonition (later in the training) to CONCENTRATE on the front sight! Be aware of how sharp the upper left corner of the front sight is! This after the student is generating good sight alignment and shooting groups. Those groups will shrink, and they will be totally hooked.

[popper]

Be aware of how sharp the upper left corner of the front sight is For those of us with blurry vision, I have found (last 2 range trips) that antihistamine eye drops really help. Allergies or not, a couple hours before shooting really helped me.

[sthwestvictoria]

Again this is more for the rifle than the original post about handguns however this book is a free download, easy and quick to read and full of excellent information about using the peep on a rilfe:

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=310-Shoot-to-Live-1945-%28Practical-Shooting-with-the-Enfield-Rifle-%29

It is the Canadian Army book for instructors who were training recruits with the Enfield mark 4.

It make a statement in the book that trigger control is "65% of good shooting" with position, aiming, position, holding, breath control making up the rest.

http://i48.tinypic.com/30vc8j7.jpg

Free and more than worth the price of admission!