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View Full Version : Did we lose Lee's sponsorship?



Jim
09-25-2012, 08:02 AM
I just noticed Lee's banner ad is not at the top of the home page. Don't know how long it's been gone, 'cause I don't look at that every day. Did we lose their sponsorship?

Hamish
09-25-2012, 08:49 AM
Hmm,,,,

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157781

FISH4BUGS
09-25-2012, 10:36 AM
I still don't know the answer

357shooter
09-25-2012, 10:52 AM
It's not there this morning too. Maybe all the Lee bashing finally got to them?

I'd say no banner = yes we lost their sponsorship. But that's unconfirmed by anyone that has the facts, other than the obvious missing ad.

waksupi
09-25-2012, 11:03 AM
I don't know the answer, but I suspect that since they no longer get a pile of group buys from us, they went elsewhere. We lost Lyman some years ago, because we would not censor criticism that was being given to their product line. You can buy advertising space here, but don't expect that to stop reports on your product, good or bad.

skeet1
09-25-2012, 11:09 AM
I hope we didn't loose them, I don't see any RCBS or Redding types waiting to take their place. Lee has been the bullet casters friend for a long time but with all the bashing going on I wouldn't blame them for pulling out. The way I see it if you like paying a lot more for a product then go ahead but don't knock the people that have helped many to get started loading.
Ken

x101airborne
09-25-2012, 11:12 AM
Well, if it be the case that they left because of the criticism rather than increasing the quality of some of their products, then good riddence.

Mal Paso
09-25-2012, 11:14 AM
It was those Drip-O-Matic comments from the malcontents.

I Love my Lee 4-20s. :grin:

quilbilly
09-25-2012, 12:11 PM
It would be a shame if we lost them. Lee makes good products at the right price. I have been using Lee ten pound pots for 35 years in fishing tackle manufacturing business making custom jigs for niche markets. Of course they drip after a while but I replace them every 3 years. I keep two new pots on hand for backup. I like their boolit molds too and I have several other brands of boolit molds as well.

Wal'
09-25-2012, 12:22 PM
There been as much positive as negative with Lee, much the same as any other product.

Can't see why that should bother them, unless they're a little thin skinned. :?:

Recluse
09-25-2012, 12:31 PM
Well, if it be the case that they left because of the criticism rather than increasing the quality of some of their products, then good riddence.

Agree.

I've been pulling the handles on reloading presses for over forty years now, and I bought my first Lee equipment back in the late 80's. The little Challenger press is still going strong, but the Pro1000 is ready for the scrap heap.

Fine. I got my money's worth out of the Pro1000.

I keep wondering if it is just me, but I saw a notable decrease in QC after the 2008 elections when everything reloading and casting became very scarce. Lee seemed to make it back "first" in terms of availability, but the quality control was non-existent.

Examples:

• I prefer the Lee 2-cavity molds over the six-bangers. Prior to the elections, I only had to do light Lee-menting and I had a pretty good mold for twenty bucks. I bought three molds after the elections and ended up throwing all three in the trash. No amount of Lee-menting even came close to saving them. Misalignment, ROUGH cavity finishes, etc etc., handles falling off, BLOCKS falling off because the pins popped out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could've wasted more money in shipping sending them back. Haven't bought a Lee mold since--doubtful I will.

• The vaunted "Classic Cast" series. . . I'd messed with both the single stage and the turret a little bit when they first came out and was genuinely impressed. Seems I waited too long. I bought myself a Classic Turret this past Christmas. Never again.

Not one caliber will line up for the decapping/sizing stage going into the die. I have to manually push and align the casing to go into the sizing/decapping die, then push the casing back on the down stroke to seat the primer.

Someone from Lee told me I need to disassemble the top of the turret head and reassemble while changing the torque on the bolts.

I've never had RCBS or Dillon tell me I needed to disassemble one of their brand new products and do THEIR job by re-assembling it correctly.

• Two brand new Classic Cast single stage presses showed up via the UPS truck at some friend's hangar. He had to disassemble both of them, polish the rams down, polish the linkage in order to stop the sticky and hesitating ram stroke along with the sandpaper grinding feel.

The Lee crowd's solution was, "Oh, mine came like that too. After several hundred ram strokes, it all smooths out."

• The shellplate holder on my Classic Turret wasn't machined correctly and even the LEE shellplates would not snap in except with a hammer. Was told to use some emory cloth, smooth it out and "take a little of the metal off." This was from a press I bought in December of last year.

Both Classic Cast single stage presses at my friend's hangar came the exact same way--and he just bought the presses a month ago. That means a KNOWN PROBLEM continues to be ignored by Lee.

What frosted the cake for me was something that happened earlier this year.

The little Lee adjustable charge bar that works with their disc powder measures is infamous for allowing squib loads and wild variations of powders through. I must've sent at least three of these things back trying to get one that works. . . (definition of insanity)

Then I saw on a reloaders' forum a statement from one of the Lee company folks that it is a known problem but here's a solution that some folks have come up with. When asked if THEY (Lee) were going to incorporate that fix, the reply was basically, "Nope."

So we have a reloading company producing a component that the reloader trusts to drop a pre-measured amount of powder, but which they acknowledge has problems and which they have zero intentions of correcting or even removing the product from their line.

I defended Lee, vociferously, for a lot of years--going back to the late 80's when I first started buying a few Lee things. No more. Not with the way their QC ain't happening.

I know all about entry-level economics in reloading and casting and I know a lot of folks might not be in reloading were it not for Lee's "affordable" prices.

But I also know on old business idiom that goes like this: "Why is there never enough money to do a job right the first time, but there's always enough money to do it over to get it right?"

I'm not expecting Lee to begin using brass or steel in their molds--and it wouldn't make any difference anyhow. Lee's problem is not the materials they use, it's the lack of care and finish to ensure that the tools are of the correct SIZE and MEASUREMENT and FUNCTION.

The problem with Lee isn't metallurgical. . . it's apathy for their consumer base.

:coffee:

theperfessor
09-25-2012, 12:50 PM
Gotta agree with Recluse. I know how hard it is to make products to spec, and I can appreciate Lee's QC difficulties. But I have never figured out why deliberately selling sub-quality products at ANY price is a good business model.

And yeah, I've been in on three GBs for Lee molds, several of which ran longer than a year and required sending back at least once. But the last GB I was in on was from Mihec, and it took longer than a year too, but the end product was a lot more refined.

Larry Gibson
09-25-2012, 12:59 PM
Perhaps you should research some member’s continual criticism of some of our sponsors, their products and their service; the answer should be self evident..........it’s no wonder we have lost them as sponsors…….

If criticism is due I've no problem with it but a couple members run down certain companies (Lyman, Lee, RCBS, etc.) every chance they got, especially when undeserved.

Larry Gibson

dragon813gt
09-25-2012, 01:12 PM
But I have never figured out why deliberately selling sub-quality products at ANY price is a good business model.



See Harbor Freight as an example. They are expanding in this economy.

I will not defend a poor quality product. But you have to figure that people that are satisifed do not usually post thet they're happy with "x" product. Then figure that most people do not participate on this board or others. The good versus bad is firmly in the good for Lee.

In the indsustry I work in the company with the largest market share is not a product I would buy or recomend. I don't like working on them and they do seem to have more duds. But they also produce equipment that works trouble free for it's lifetime. Now the brand that I'm a dealer for is the most expensive. I'm seeing more duds then ever lately with this brand. And at four to five times the cost I have to wonder if I can recomend this brand anymore.

Cost plays in to everything. And with the economy the way it is it's a determining factor for a lot of people. Maybe I'm lucky but I haven't bought any Lee products that were duds. This includes a cast turret in the past year.




Brought to you by TapaTalk.

Tokarev
09-25-2012, 01:19 PM
Recently I've been unsuccessfully trying to contact Lee for a custom order - not a word back in 6 months or so.
Previously Pat would reply back within a week. Still following up once a month though.

Press broke, I asked them what part I should replace - no reply either, 4 months and counting. Unimpressed is an understatement.
I have a feeling that the problems have started when Lee's daughter joined them and the new site was put up. Just my 2c.

In the heat of the moment I forgot to mention, that they burned me on a custom die order. Their customer service agreed in an email to provide a certain custom feature, but the dies that they delivered lacked that feature. It was critical, pivotal point of the whole project. I just did not see myself spending as much on shipping dies back to them as they were worth and altered them myself. They claimed that customer service never communicated the requirement to the machine shop. As if I care.

Now, I own a 7 year old turret press, but the turrets no longer fit on the indexer nut. I have to modify each of the new turrets I buy. 2 years ago I told Lee about that and they said 'sorry'. That was it - nothing changed.

375RUGER
09-25-2012, 01:29 PM
If they are that thinned skinned.......Lee isn't the only mould or machine that is bashed here.

There are as many or more here that are very loyal Lee followers compared to other brands.
Just start a poll thread that allows selecting how many of each brand of mould and loader and dies are owned by those on this site.

Joe504
09-25-2012, 01:51 PM
I had a problem with some missing peices from a die set. Filled out the online form, had the part in 4 days.

Recluse
09-25-2012, 01:53 PM
Perhaps you should research some member’s continual criticism of some of our sponsors, their products and their service; the answer should be self evident..........it’s no wonder we have lost them as sponsors…….

If criticism is due I've no problem with it but a couple members run down certain companies (Lyman, Lee, RCBS, etc.) every chance they got, especially when undeserved.

Larry Gibson

Larry, look at some sponsors whose praises are continuously being sung, then look at (former) sponsors who we're not missing.

In every single instance, Quality and Customer Service was at the forefront.

I'm sick and tired of the "giants" in our industry dictating to us, their consumer base, that we have to put up with their shoddily built, over-priced questionable-quality merchandise simply because they are Lee or Colt or Glock or Smith & Wesson or (especially) Taurus.

Fact is, we DON'T have to put up with it. When Lyman screwed us on the sponsorship thing several years ago when Robert (No1) talked with them at the SHOT Show in Florida, and the way Lee did us on group buys and their overall plummet in quality-control, we had a number of smaller mold makers step in.

And they're making better products for roughly the same money. . . or less.

My wife and I have all but quit eating at the big chain restaurants. Two-star food at four-star prices with only three-star service is not what we choose to support. So we seek out family-owned businesses where the owners and staff themselves have all of their skin in the game--as opposed to only regional managers and corporate officers worrying about the stock price and how Wall Street will react.

I'm having some home improvement work done and I'm having all bids done by locally-owned businesses. Forget the big Lowe's and Home Depots--won't even go through their contractor base books.

Apathy kills us. As a gun-owner and Second Amendment patriot, I refuse to be apathetic and endlessly apologetic to those industries who seek my hard-earned dollars, but in return are more than happy and content to give me only a mediocre product and lukewarm service in return.

The folks here at Cast Boolits are not amateurs or rookies or new to the shooting and gun world. We know quality, we know what we expect and there is no reason for US to lower OUR standards simply to have a national company's banner waving at the top of our website.

While we, Cast Boolits, may not change the entire shooting world, we can damn well change our corner of it by letting sponsors know that it's a two-way street: We're happy to have you on board, but as Ric (Waksupi) stated, don't think that sponsorship grants immunity from deserved criticism.

:coffee:

41 mag fan
09-25-2012, 02:20 PM
Wont be a loss of having lee drop their sponsorship.... only things good I've bought off them was their turret press and 6 bangers.

But if their QC has lacked over the years only stands to reason it's due to saving money, next step to saving money would be to drop sponsorships too.

Sounds like greed might of stepped into Lees company when it used to be to provide a product to the shooter and reloader at an affordable price.

Tokarev
09-25-2012, 02:42 PM
Apathy kills us. As a gun-owner and Second Amendment patriot, I refuse to be apathetic and endlessly apologetic to those industries who seek my hard-earned dollars, but in return are more than happy and content to give me only a mediocre product and lukewarm service in return.

Very well said, Recluse.

Wally
09-25-2012, 02:42 PM
Wont be a loss of having lee drop their sponsorship.... only things good I've bought off them was their turret press and 6 bangers.

But if their QC has lacked over the years only stands to reason it's due to saving money, next step to saving money would be to drop sponsorships too.

Sounds like greed might of stepped into Lees company when it used to be to provide a product to the shooter and reloader at an affordable price.

Looking through their recent catalog---their prices cannot be considered cheap anymore---the classic Lee Loader---$37.98? Trimmer pilots @ $5.98 each...ouch!

bruce drake
09-25-2012, 02:45 PM
Its cheaper to buy from one of their distributers like MidSouth or Midway since they buy in bulk and pass it along. LEE is not a big fan of selling directly from their website as it interrupts their production of large orders so they adjust the prices to reflect that. Besides, if you couldget it cheaper from them direct, the distributor stores would not buy as many as they would consider LEE a direct competitor.

Larry Gibson
09-25-2012, 02:45 PM
Larry, look at some sponsors whose praises are continuously being sung, then look at (former) sponsors who we're not missing.

In every single instance, Quality and Customer Service was at the forefront.

I'm sick and tired of the "giants" in our industry dictating to us, their consumer base, that we have to put up with their shoddily built, over-priced questionable-quality merchandise simply because they are Lee or Colt or Glock or Smith & Wesson or (especially) Taurus.

Fact is, we DON'T have to put up with it. When Lyman screwed us on the sponsorship thing several years ago when Robert (No1) talked with them at the SHOT Show in Florida, and the way Lee did us on group buys and their overall plummet in quality-control, we had a number of smaller mold makers step in.

And they're making better products for roughly the same money. . . or less.

My wife and I have all but quit eating at the big chain restaurants. Two-star food at four-star prices with only three-star service is not what we choose to support. So we seek out family-owned businesses where the owners and staff themselves have all of their skin in the game--as opposed to only regional managers and corporate officers worrying about the stock price and how Wall Street will react.

I'm having some home improvement work done and I'm having all bids done by locally-owned businesses. Forget the big Lowe's and Home Depots--won't even go through their contractor base books.

Apathy kills us. As a gun-owner and Second Amendment patriot, I refuse to be apathetic and endlessly apologetic to those industries who seek my hard-earned dollars, but in return are more than happy and content to give me only a mediocre product and lukewarm service in return.

The folks here at Cast Boolits are not amateurs or rookies or new to the shooting and gun world. We know quality, we know what we expect and there is no reason for US to lower OUR standards simply to have a national company's banner waving at the top of our website.

While we, Cast Boolits, may not change the entire shooting world, we can damn well change our corner of it by letting sponsors know that it's a two-way street: We're happy to have you on board, but as Ric (Waksupi) stated, don't think that sponsorship grants immunity from deserved criticism.

:coffee:

Note I said; "If criticism is due I've no problem with it "

It is the continual bashing when not due that I have the problem with and obviously the former sponsors have also.

Comparing a Lee mould quality at the price paid to a much more expensive (twice or more) custom mould is also not "due criticism"....., also failing to follow instructions or abusing a product are not the makers fault.......in my humble opinion.

Anyone who is in manufacturing knows there will be some product problems. That's why they have a "customer service" and a warrenty program. I've had some problems in the past (most recently with Thompson Center/S&W) but I don't go around bad mouthing them at every opportunity like a couple members here have with other manufacturers.

I'm of the opinion we should be supportive of our sponsors. If there is a problem a little patience and positive attitude when dealing with them will get the problem taken care of. Some membrs are lacking both, evident in their posts on the topics.

We've lost sponsors is the problem. If the "problem" is on our end we should police it ourselves.......again, just my humble opinion.........

Larry Gibson

Recluse
09-25-2012, 03:10 PM
Note I said; "If criticism is due I've no problem with it "

It is the continual bashing when not due that I have the problem with and obviously the former sponsors have also.

Comparing a Lee mould quality at the price paid to a much more expensive (twice or more) custom mould is also not "due criticism"....., also failing to follow instructions or abusing a product are not the makers fault.......in my humble opinion.

Anyone who is in manufacturing knows there will be some product problems. That's why they have a "customer service" and a warrenty program. I've had some problems in the past (most recently with Thompson Center/S&W) but I don't go around bad mouthing them at every opportunity like a couple members here have with other manufacturers.

I'm of the opinion we should be supportive of our sponsors. If there is a problem a little patience and positive attitude when dealing with them will get the problem taken care of. Some membrs are lacking both, evident in their posts on the topics.

We've lost sponsors is the problem. If the "problem" is on our end we should police it ourselves.......again, just my humble opinion.........

Larry Gibson

Believe me, Larry, I hear where you're coming from. We have members here who could tear up an anvil and for whom a crowbar is a one-time use tool. . .

Bear in mind that I spent two decades in the marketing, advertising and promotions industry and I can assure you that there is now a mindset that has permeated the Big Businesses which goes like: "HEY! If we spend money advertising and sponsoring a website or event, those people DAMNED WELL BETTER SUPPORT US or we won't be back."

Nowhere does the brand ever consider that if they do not offer a competitive product for a good price or if their customer service stinks or if their warranty is lacking or if their product isn't one of quality. . . only that they're throwing dollars at a sponsorship.

And therein lies the problem. You cannot simply throw money at a problem and expect the consumer base to forgive you.

I hear the word "greed" being thrown around a lot these days as it relates to businesses.

Newsflash: I'M GREEDY! I didn't work and manage big ad agencies to break even--I did it to make copious amounts of money for the agency, which in return rewarded me and the rest of the employees with handsome salaries.

However, we did not skimp on the quality of our work, the thoroughness of our relationships with clients, vendors, producers, et al, and we did not hoard all the money for those of us in the corner offices while tossing cracker crumbs to the lowly minions who actually designed and wrote and produced the ads.

But that is what is going on today in Big Business. The top handful of senior executives are reaping the overwhelming share of profits made on the backs of their employees. In return, the employees receive reduced benefits at much higher premiums, reduced or stagnant wages, fewer perks/rewards, significantly increased workload and expectations of performance/output.

Back in the 90's, another ad executive and myself put out a couple of books and in one of them, I referred to these conditions as a "captive economy with a hostage workforce." IN short, it means that in a struggling or challenged economy, Big Business will exploit the living hell out of its workforce because they know there are few jobs out there and employees will do whatever it takes to keep the one they have.

With Big Business buying out so many companies these days (see: Mergers, Acquisitions), we're even seeing this in our own gun industry. Winchester is owned by someone else. So is RCBS, Smith & Wesson, etc.

The head corner offices become out of touch with those actually doing the work, and even WORSE, out of touch with those who are purchasing and using the goods and services being produced.

This is where, how and why quality goes down the crapper.

I'm firmly convinced that Lee has fallen squarely in this trap given the tremendous increase in orders and business they experienced after the 2008/2009 Firearms Industry Salesman of the Year (Obama) scared so many people--and the newcomers flocked to the most affordable brand(s) out there which is primarily Lee.

I've never argued that Lee's materials were high quality, but in thirty years of Lee products, I've never seen the abysmal lack of quality control that I've seen in just the past four years. I've also never experienced the complete "who gives a you-know-what" attitude from them, either.

As far as I'm concerned, Lee has done everything in their power to earn the criticisms they are experiencing at the moment, and their response is NOT to address, adjust, explain and improve. . .

Instead, it is to deny and run.

Lee is but one example in our industry at the present. Taurus is another. I love my 92 and 85 that I purchased back in the 80's, but the Judge I have now came out of the box with zero QC. I could've sent it back, had it fixed, etc etc. . . the issue is WHY is so much Taurus stuff coming out of the box unfinished?

I remember when Colt Gold Cups were having that problem. I love my Series 70 Gold Cup, but it cost some extra money having a smith finish it out for me. Colt was too busy getting rich off the U.S. military to care about their core consumer.

Look what happened--a company called Kimber came along. ParaOrdinance. Springfield cranked up production. S&W and Sig came up with 1911 designs.

Nature abhors a vacuum and will fill it at some point.

It very well may turn out here at CB that the "big" company sponsors want nothing to do with us. Fine. To hell with them. I'll take the "small" sponsors we have like Glen (White Label Lubes), Rotometals, Bullshop (if he cranks his biz back up), our own "vendor/sponsors" and the such all day long over the "big" guys who choose to throw money at us in a patronizing way--then expect our loyalty based upon sponsorship alone.

:coffee:

GRUMPA
09-25-2012, 03:41 PM
I see greed as a major issue with some (if not all) companies attitudes and personally I think the exact opposite. Yes I do sell on this site, but I do it primarily for the passion of it rather than the almighty dollar. As time goes by I see more and more greed coming into play with money being the primer behind there decisions rather than having a devoted customer base.

I've worked in manufacturing all my life, but it was aero-space and things are different, you make a mistake along the way the companies liable for it. Quality Control and a few other courses I've had to take over the years taught me more than 1 thing. It's the responsibility of the person (company) providing a product that is responsible for the outcome of the product.

When I left all the machines were pretty much what they called N.C. machines and once a program was written by an experienced person that person would be relieved (fired) and have some $10hr person come in and run the machine. That may sound good to the ones with money on the brain but it don't work that way in the real world. This is still going on and quality and customer base is suffering because of the way they neglect the responses of the customers by choice.

There's only 2 ways as I see it, your either going to make a good product and listen to what customers have to say and actually change things to make them happy or continue with the current philosophy and so long as the product gets out the door we got paid so even if we sell 1000 units but get 10 calls because of a mistake that's 90% that didn't have a problem. But we still have cheap/unskilled labor at a reduced cost so all in all we did OK.

When my customers regardless of how small the issue I still bend over backwards to always make it better. So far this has worked great I just wish it was like old ways where not so much the customer is always right but actually making the effort to prevent the customer from having an issue in the first place.

My .02

geargnasher
09-25-2012, 03:43 PM
Perhaps you should research some member’s continual criticism of some of our sponsors, their products and their service; the answer should be self evident..........it’s no wonder we have lost them as sponsors…….

If criticism is due I've no problem with it but a couple members run down certain companies (Lyman, Lee, RCBS, etc.) every chance they got, especially when undeserved.

Larry Gibson

Yep, it's all my fault, running off Lyman before I even joined the forum. And the hundreds of bragging/defending posts I made about Lee didn't seem to do any good, either, now did it? I think you need to revisit Waksupi and x101airborne's posts above. I call them like I see them, good or bad, your milage will vary from mine, that's just the law of averages. BTW I have over two dozen Lee moulds and every single one of them is excellent, some of the ones I've bought in the past two years needed only a cleaning before use, and many have cast thousands of in-spec, round, very accurate boolits without undue wear or malfunctions. I take care of my stuff and know how to cast, Lyman is using worn out boring vises and oversharpened cherries, if you know about machining practices is it obvious where the faults are with their processes. Since 2007 Lyman has been going downhill, with zero-for-twelve moulds bought by me as proof in the past four or five years. This is a real shame, they were pretty darn good before that.

Gear

joec
09-25-2012, 03:48 PM
Its cheaper to buy from one of their distributers like MidSouth or Midway since they buy in bulk and pass it along. LEE is not a big fan of selling directly from their website as it interrupts their production of large orders so they adjust the prices to reflect that. Besides, if you couldget it cheaper from them direct, the distributor stores would not buy as many as they would consider LEE a direct competitor.

With the cheapest I've found being FS Reloading as well as reasonable shipping costs and fast to boot.

connecticut-yankee
09-25-2012, 04:36 PM
I called Lee about a few items and the customer service rep suggested that I purchase them from one of their distributors. Apparently, they have set their catalog prices high enough so they don't compete with their distributors. If this is true then I say BRAVO.

Larry Gibson
09-25-2012, 05:19 PM
Gear

Did I mention you?

Perhaps your heartburn with me is better served on the AR forum?

Larry Gibson

Recluse
09-25-2012, 06:36 PM
Gear, Larry,

What the hell is going with you two?

:coffee:

500MAG
09-25-2012, 06:57 PM
I use a mixture of everything. When I was teenager, I wouldn't have been able to start without Lee. I still have, and use, every Lee item I started with except a 4 pound dipper pot I sold a couple a months ago and was still working. I don't expect a 6 cavity mould sold for less than $40 to be the best but I have been happy. I, like Gear, take very good care of my reloading equipment.

ShooterAZ
09-25-2012, 07:00 PM
Gear, Larry,

What the hell is going with you two?

:coffee:

I was wondering the same thing... What gives with you guys? Iv'e seen some really good threads get completely lambasted recently by you guys.

oneokie
09-25-2012, 07:07 PM
Second warning Guys. Take it back where it started, and keep it there.

MT Gianni
09-25-2012, 11:01 PM
Wont be a loss of having lee drop their sponsorship.... only things good I've bought off them was their turret press and 6 bangers.

But if their QC has lacked over the years only stands to reason it's due to saving money, next step to saving money would be to drop sponsorships too.

Sounds like greed might of stepped into Lees company when it used to be to provide a product to the shooter and reloader at an affordable price.

The board owner relies on their funds and other sponsers. Any loss of one in our industry is a loss to our board. We don't have porn links as sponsers, redirects or any number of traditional web money makers. This board only accepts sponsers that are related to our sport and since it is s very small niche in the shooting sports any sponser moving away is a loss, both to this board and to their visibility as caster suppliers.
This should not prevent any of us from telling it as it is but continually running down someone's product from a single experience over twenty years ago is not a valid test IMO. No this is not aimed at any one individual but there are many that do not give things a resaonable shot, again IMO.