Question On Minimum .45-70 COAL

[FredMcIntire]

I'm looking to take a .45-70 case and trim the case back to 1.80" maximum case length, to meet our states maximum case length regulations for deer legal rifles.

I want to load a 350 grain cast bullet, with gas check into this shorter case. The bullet is .852 in length, and .455 from nose to crimp.

My question is, will a shorter CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH create a dangerous pressure situation in the gun ?

I plan on using these in an H&R Buffalo Classic .45-70 SINGLE SHOT rifle.

Thanks for any and all input !

Fred

[PuppetZ]

A shorter COAL will increase pressure. It's difficult to guess how much but it will. Can it create a dangerous situation? Yes it can. Could you possibly load the bullet at the same COAL with the shorter case? Assuming there is still enough of the bullet in the case, that might be the way to do it, although it might create some other problems I am not aware of.

The other thing with the shorter COAL, is the the chamber is not really made for that short of a round. We're talking about 3/8" there(assuming the max case length of 2.105" vs your 1.800", that's .300"). That's a lot of space for the bullet to wobble inside the chamber before hitting the lands. That might alos cause it'S own ste of problems with inaccuracy.

Hope that help.

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, Fred!

That's the first such regulation I've heard of--what state will you be hunting in? Most regs specify a MINIMUM power factor for game calibers. That power limit you mention throws out many classic deer calibers, but does address the magnumizing of the deer woods. Interesting.

I would be more inclined to purchase a 44 Magnum or 45 Colt levergun, rather than modify the chamber or cartridges of an existing 45-70. I know, I know--any excuse to buy a new war toy, but that's how I roll.

[I'll Make Mine]

Based on that length, I'd look at .45 Colt load data. Don't expect much accuracy, though; that boolit is taking an awfully long leap before it hits rifling.

I agree, it seems very odd to limit rifle case length to that of a top end revolver cartridge -- are you sure you read it right? Contact your state's Fish & Game to verify? With a 1.8" maximum length, they'd outlaw .308, .243 Win, even .222 Remington (.221 Fireball is close to 1.8" OAL with 55 grain bullets, may exceed it if you load a heavier pill) -- they'd force you to use Short or Super Short class rounds more suitable for varmints and bolt action pistols. I think it much more likely they intended a minimum length of 1.8", specifially to rule out .221 Fireball, .357 Magnum, .45 Colt, and other handgun cartridges that might be chambered in rifles, while still allowing .223 Rem, .308, .30-30, and other traditional rifle cartridges.

Meanwhile, which state are you in? Someone here might already have clarified what sounds like a misprint in the hunter's regulation booklet...

[9.3X62AL]

Fred said CASE LENGTH, so if it the regs say "minimum" and not "maximum" then the magnum revolver cartridges AND the 222/222 Rem Mag/223 calibers would be disallowed, while the 22-250, 243, and 250 Savage would get a pass. A clarification is definitely in order--I would hate to see a hunter get a citation or lose a firearm due to unclear regs.

[wgr]

it,s indiana. they have a 1.8 case length max. on pistol rounds to use in rifles. i hunt with a muzzle loader but i have shorten 45-70 cases and loaded a 500 grain boolit out to max. col. with no problems. accuracy was good at 100yards

[Max Brand]

Fred here's what I came up with when I saw the new 2012 DNR deer rules including the increase in cartridge length to a maximum of 1.8 inches. I decided it was time to make up a short case load for my 45-70 but wanted to maintain a COL as near 2.55 as possible to alleviate any pressure concerns. I call them my 45-55 loads due to the reduction in case volume...

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1992/10790285/24151632/403285713.jpg http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1992/10790285/24151632/403988983.jpg

I use a 45-70 case trimmed to 1.8" and a Beagl'd Lee 457-450 plain base boolit because if its profile. These drop at .4595 diameter and are seated to a COL of 2.525". I use a Lyman "M" die on these to prevent any boolit resizing and lead shaving by the case and remove the bell at the case mouth by running it up into a .458 sizing die just a smidgin'. With a moderate charge of Accurate 2230, as listed on their website, these average 1510 fps and the accuracy from my 22" Marlin 1895 is a lot better than my old eyes are capable of keeping up with.

[I'll Make Mine]

it,s indiana. they have a 1.8 case length max. on pistol rounds to use in rifles.

Aha!! So .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt would be okay. In fact, I don't know of any pistol or revolver cartridge with a case longer than 1.8" -- .454 Casull, .445 Super Mag, and .357 Max are all shorter. No need to shorten your .45-70 or .444 Marlin; those are rifle rounds...

[rexherring]

Strange reg. Here in ND we have a minimum length in handguns but no max length. Rifles just have to be centerfire. You could use a 600 nitro if so inclined or a .22 Hornet.

[Max Brand]

Indiana deer firearms regs in a nutshell;

Muzzleloading firearms must be .44 caliber or larger, loaded with a single bullet of at least .357 caliber. Saboted bullets are allowed, provided the bullet is .357 caliber or larger. A muzzleloading firearm must be capable of being loaded from only the muzzle. Multiple-barrel muzzleloading long guns are allowed.

Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms and special antlerless seasons. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf.

Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long. Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted.

Handguns are not permitted on any military areas.

Some handgun cartridges that are legal for deer hunting include .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .35 Remington and .357 Herrett.

Some handgun cartridges that are illegal for deer hunting are .38 Special, .38 Smith and Wesson, .38 Colt New Police, .38/200,
.38 Long Colt, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .38 Colt Auto, .45 ACP, .45 Automatic and .45 Auto Rim. All .25/.20, .32/.20 and .30 carbine ammunition is prohibited.

Makes you wonder who the knuckle heads were that came up with this doesn't it?

[FredMcIntire]

Fred here's what I came up with when I saw the new 2012 DNR deer rules including the increase in cartridge length to a maximum of 1.8 inches. I decided it was time to make up a short case load for my 45-70 but wanted to maintain a COL as near 2.55 as possible to alleviate any pressure concerns. I call them my 45-55 loads due to the reduction in case volume...

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1992/10790285/24151632/403285713.jpg http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1992/10790285/24151632/403988983.jpg

I use a 45-70 case trimmed to 1.8" and a Beagl'd Lee 457-450 plain base boolit because if its profile. These drop at .4595 diameter and are seated to a COL of 2.525". I use a Lyman "M" die on these to prevent any boolit resizing and lead shaving by the case and remove the bell at the case mouth by running it up into a .458 sizing die just a smidgin'. With a moderate charge of Accurate 2230, as listed on their website, these average 1510 fps and the accuracy from my 22" Marlin 1895 is a lot better than my old eyes are capable of keeping up with.

Max;

You are definitely rocking it out with these ."45-55's" ! This is exactly what I was looking for ! Thank you !

I know the Lee 457-450 mold; however, what exactly do you mean by Beagl'd ?

I speaking with Marshall at Beartooth Bullets, he also suggested using the Lyman "M" die to help with bullet seating and making sure the bullet is square in the case.

Yes, we have some pretty ridiculous deer regulations here in Indiana.

I also have a .38-55 Wesson & Harrington that I plan on doing the same thing with.

Thanks to everyone for your help !

[I'll Make Mine]

Makes you wonder who the knuckle heads were that came up with this doesn't it?

No kidding -- a .327 Magnum is legal in a handgun, but not in a rifle, as are .243 Winchester and .45-70. A .44 Magnum is legal in a rifle, but a .444 Marlin isn't (but it's okay in a Contender). And the classic deer cartridge, .30-30, along with .308 Winchester and .30-06 (and their European cousins, .303 British, 7.62x54R and 7.62x39) are all banned in rifles, due to too small a bore?! And I think it might be legal to hunt with 000 buckshot (.360" diameter), but not 00 or 0 (projectiles too small). I don't think knucklehead is the right word -- these regulations sound as if they were written with the intent of confusing hunters so badly as to discourage hunting. Wonder how long until Indiana has to start allowing farmers to shoot whitetails year around (with whatever they like) as crop-destroying pests?

Lots of places have restrictions against centerfire rifles for safety (several counties here in NC allow rifles only from stands at least 15 feet above ground, others ban them entirely), requiring hunters to use shotguns with either shot or slugs because they don't carry like a rifle bullet -- but something just doesn't add up for Indiana: a .458 Win Mag will carry about as well as a .30-30, and leave a lot less edible venison if you shoot a deer with it (or do a lot more damage if it comes down a mile or two away).

[whisler]

Indiana, if I understand correctly, used to be a "shotgun only" state (except muzzleloader/pistol). This is an attempt to allow the use of rifles that are chambered for pistol rounds of sufficient power for humane kill but still eliminate over-carry (if that is a real term).

[Max Brand]

Fred the term "beagling" refers to making a mould drop a larger boolit than it was designed for. Here is the article by Beagle (hence the term beagling) himself http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=117331. It simply uses thin strips of aluminum ducting tape placed between the mould halves to produce a slightly larger boolit.

Good luck with your endeavor.

[1Shirt]

Nebraska HAD a law that said you could use a 357 in a handgun but not rifle for deer until this year. Laws regarding firearms and hunting are often made (in my opinion) by people who have little reality regarding firearms and hunting!
1Shirt!

[Cap'n Morgan]

My question is, will a shorter CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH create a dangerous pressure situation in the gun ?

Fred

The pressure in straight-wall cases will rise considerably when the seating depth is increased - seating the bullet .30 deeper will increase the pressure as much as 30-40% depending on bullet weight and the powder used. I'll suggest you find a suitable boolit and calculate the seating depth based on the 1.8" case length - post the numbers here and I'll run the data through Quickload to give you some safe starting loads suggestions.

[44man]

Stupid regs for sure but can you get away with just shorter brass? The 45-70 is capable of using longer brass then the regs say so they might tag you on the gun, not what you shoot.