Dirty or clean?

[leftiye]

Is there any where that anyone knows about that rates powders as to clean burning/dirty? I know, this is also all about pressures/ guns/ignition, but let's look at it as -how hard or probable to get clean burning? 1 to 10 scale with 1 the cleanest, and 10 being the dirtiest. That way the powders can be rated individually.

I'm kinda playing with the concept that the less lube fouling, and the less the powder fouling, and the less fouling period, then the better the situation accuracy wise.

[felix]

The cleanest powders out there are V-V brand. That does not mean others are not as clean. Powder selection has to be done on a situation by situation basis. Tall lands don't need to worry too much about the powder. Lube, yes, to some extent. Always best to use the lowest viscosity as is possible for the application. Know in advance what is acceptable before cleaning the barrel. Always start with a barrel slicked down with a light oil, especially if the barrel is clean and dry. Never let lube stay in a microgroove barrel for too long, just in case the lube decides to harden. I personally don't like squeeky clean barrels unless being stored for a long time. ... felix

[BruceB]

There seems to be a substantial fixation among modern handloaders on this subject, and it never fails to amaze and amuse me.

The relative fouling production of various powders simply never appears on my list of reasons for using a given powder. I NEVER consider it, it any way.

My Garand, for instance, has fired in excess of 600 cast-bullet rounds loaded with a wide variety of powders, without needing cleaning. My M1A seems to share that trait, often going into several hundreds of rounds before I clean it....and the cleaning is NOT required, as the rifles are still functioning well and delivering good accuracy. It's just that I get to feeling guilty, or curious, or something.

The "dirtiness" of powders can be affected in great measure by the pressure they develop in a given load. Low-pressure loads often show extreme amounts of fouling, as the powder never gets to burning very well. High pressure loads with the same powder will show much less crud after the firing is over.

I find the very fast powders much nicer to use in the target-load .45 ACP and .38 Special, for instance. Slower powders definitely show more fouling. I've never thought Bullseye to be a dirty powder, but many people seem to hold that it is. Unique in the .45ACP can be a fouler, but a high-pressure .44 mag load of Unique burns nice and clean in my guns.

Cast bullets, along with their associated lubes, have always shot "dirtier" than equivalent jacketed loads, and I believe it's just part of the game. Our target-grade .38 autoloaders will choke after about 400 cast rounds, but the .45s will run until I get bored counting.

The WAY we use a given powder has great impact on how much it fouls, and I don't think a truly definitive positional list could be made on the subject of what is, and what isn't, a "dirty" powder.

The funny thing is, that even with all the recent introductions of powder, I could still fare just fine on the ones I started with forty years ago. Bullseye, Herco, and 2400 in handguns, and 4895, 4350 and H4831 in rifles, will take care of most of my loading. In a nod to my cast bullet rifles, I'd add 5744 and 4198, the latter being yet another oldie from 'way back. The other 150-or-so types now available just aren't needed by myself, at any rate, be they clean OR dirty!

[AlaskaMike]

Bruce, I fully agree with you--I don't really care about how clean the powders burn in my rifles. In my semi-auto pistols it's a completely different story however. I quit using Unique and W231 in .45 ACP because my Springfield 1911 jams after about 50 - 100 round of those type of loads due to the powder fouling. When I use Clays and Power Pistol, it simply doesn't, and I get at least as good accuracy with the newer powders as I do with W231 and Unique. So for me and my 1911 it's a no brainer.

But my rifles? I couldn't care less--I get no feeding problems whatsoever in them with dirtier powders.

Mike

[Bass Ackward]

I'm kinda playing with the concept that the less lube fouling, and the less the powder fouling, and the less fouling period, then the better the situation accuracy wise.

That's a good'en to play with. Especially if you want to shoot cast like cast. Remember, anytime you combine carbon and a petroleum product you get tar. And tar will harden.

But .... I .... mostly prefer slow dirty powders and let my bullet design and Carnauba deal with the fouling and I'll just clean around it when it gets to be a problem.

[Char-Gar]

BruceB said it best. Like him and others who have been around a while, I am amused, amazed and vexed by this new generations of short horns and their preoccupation with "clean" powder. I am equaly amused, amazed and vexed that the powder manufactures cater to this contemporary foolishness.

Big boys, bath, wash their hand, change their underwear and clean their rifles when needed.

Alaska Mike..If you pistol jams with Unique and 231 after 50-100 rounds there is something wrong with your pistol. I have a Colt Govt. Model and two Norinco 1911A1s and they will all go 500 rounds of Unique and 231 loads without jaming. They will also do it with Rooski Wolf ball ammo and that stuff is do dirty, it looks like you have been sacking charcoal by hand after 50 roounds. Well, the latter is a small exageration, but it is very dirty stuff.

[Char-Gar]

BruceB... Talk to me about Herco. I used some 45 years ago, but don't even remember why for and why. Some antique memory tells me that started life ad a shotgun powder.

I stick to the basics as well.

Pistol: Bullseye, Unique and 2400
Rifle: 2400, 4895/3031 and now WC872

I also use some 4227, 4759 and H335 in rifles, but could do without them if needed.

That is it for me and powders.

[BruceB]

I've used Herco for a long time, but not really in an intensive manner.

It all started when I was having serious leading trouble with Unique in a Browning 9mm Hi-Power, and read somewhere that Unique had a tendency to leading that perhaps some others didn't have. A simple switch to Herco, and the leading problem disappeared....NO other changes.

Since then, I've used it occasionally in the .45 ACP, hottish .38 Specials, light .44s, etc. I find that it's well-mannered and predictable in the applications I've tried.

Just this week, I tested some Herco loads in my Ruger 77 7.62x39, under the Lee 312-155 bullet sized at .311". The best load was 9.0 grains, delivering 1450 fps and a 3/4" fifty-yard group of TEN rounds. Nice economical load, with over 700 loads to the pound of powder, and good accuracy. Since these were unlisted loads, I was pleased to see that they worked so well. I ran it up to 12.0 grains, reaching about 1700 fps with fairly-good grouping and no pressure problems. I'll be doing more testing in the 7.62x39 with Herco.

Back in the '70s, Speer published a 9mm Para load with 7.0 Herco and their new 125-grain RNSP bullet. This charge filled the case right to the mouth and was heavily compressed by the bullet. A 4" S&W M39 delivered that bullet at 1330 fps!!!! This speed was HIGHER than a lot of the 125-grain .357s of that time!

It seems that in my shop, Herco is my substitute for Unique, and it serves me very well.

[357maximum]

There is alot of wisdom in what Bass and Bruce have just told you......heed it

That being said them Vhit powders will amze you if you get the pressures right...they almost clean a gun as you shoot them

[leftiye]

Jest so you know, I ain't no newbie to reloading. It kinda seemed to me that you were making that assumption. And, yes those older powders, and those older cartridges , and my '58 Impala still do do anything necessary in this world. But (in the case of the Chevy) that's if you want to pay for the gas, and if the performance isn't a problem.

Now that that's out of the way, and as you've all expressed that you don't care if it burns dirty, and that there are all kinds of "well it depends on's" It still seems to me that dirt in the bore, excess lube mixed in that can harden and deform later boolits ..........Ain't good? BTW thanks Felix,.357 max.., B.A.

[357maximum]

Thoughts.............maybe a,,,,,"Hey I'm reloading this cartridge" or a "what is the cleanest as well as accurate powder with XXXX cartridge" forms of question might have precluded the tight muscles in your forehead. I am sure the tension and assumptions would go away if the question was a bit more pointed.....just an outsider view of the deal, it is hard to tell how advanced a handloader is when BROAD questions are asked.....we have all been guilty of both sides of this particular issue...it is no biggum deal...

[pdawg_shooter]

Only one powder has ever given my trouble when it comes to cleaning, H335. That is some serious fouling! Still my best .223 powder though.

[1Shirt]

A lot of the older powders have been cleaned up a bunch. Unique and 2400 come to mind mostly. Son in law was given a qty. of old Unique that is probably 15-20 yrs old. It is about as dirty as shooting with black powder (almost). The new unique and most of the new batches of fast burning shotgun type powders to me seem to burn a whale of a lot cleaner than they did as little as 5 or 10 years ago.
Not only is there a difference in some of the current batches of the old names, but there is also sometimes a difference in burning rates I think. 2400 in new powder is in my opinion definately faster than 2400 was 10 years ago. The same charges that I loaded with 2400 in a hornet case back in the 50's & 60's with cast are over max charges with modern stuff according to primer flattening. It pays to have old data for reference material, but it also pays to pay attention to new loading info which seems to be constantly coming out.
1Shirt!:coffee: :coffee:

[NVcurmudgeon]

The funny thing is, that even with all the recent introductions of powder, I could still fare just fine on the ones I started with forty years ago. Bullseye, Herco, and 2400 in handguns, and 4895, 4350 and H4831 in rifles, will take care of most of my loading. In a nod to my cast bullet rifles, I'd add 5744 and 4198, the latter being yet another oldie from 'way back. The other 150-or-so types now available just aren't needed by myself, at any rate, be they clean OR dirty!

Thanks, Bruce. Now I can come out of my sparsely furnished powder closet and admit getting by with a very limited selection of powders, ranging from old to very old; Green Dot, 231, 2400, IMR 4198, IMR 4895, RL 15, IMR 4350. RL 15 may be redundant, but my .35 Whelen really likes it. Only one of these choices was made for cleanliness-231 over Bullseye in .45 ACP.

[Ricochet]

That '58 Impala wouldn't happen to have a 348 with 3 deuces, would it? Got pics? :mrgreen:

[targetshootr]

Big boys, bath, wash their hand, change their underwear ...when needed.
Uh-oh. Is that, like, written down somewhere?

:Fire:

[tom barthel]

I have found unique to be very consistent. It is also quite dirty in MY guns. I don't shoot matches any more. I'm still having cleaning parties after shooting. Old habits are hard to break. I have also found Federal ammo to be the most dirty. My opinions are based on shooting my guns. Federal factory ammo has been THE most accurate in my guns. If you are shooting a match and are not permitted to run a brush or patch through between stages then, it may be a problem. Just shoot for your on enjoyment and don't worry about it.

[targetshootr]

I don't mind powder residue but I don't like it if it feels greasy and the only one I know of that does that is Unique. Green Dot seems to be cleaner.

[leftiye]

Sorry if I seemed a bit snippy. Just frustrated, I guess. 357, I don't know how to ask this question more narrowly. I know that even clean powders can be made messy at low pressures, and dirty powders can be made to shoot clean in the right cartridge at the right pressures. And just as some don't care about the dirty powder thing, I don't in the present instance care about the whereases, and wherefores, just what has a general reputation for clean or dirty. Thanks, Ted

[grumpy one]

Maybe the issue here is under what circumstances certain powders are dirty, and what the consequences are. The best accuracy results I've had with J-bullets in 30-06 so far are with AR2213SC, which I believe is sold in the US as H4831. At pressures which list below 47,000 psi this stuff is nasty - it is really difficult to get a nylon brush through the bore afterward, and it takes time and effort to get the Ed's Red to penetrate the hard carbon and allow its removal. However at high pressures - which means drop tube and compression - the stuff is not only giving superior accuracy, it's also possibly the cleanest powder I've tried.

I'm not enthusiastic about really thick, hard carbon deposits in case they deform cast bullets, or perhaps generate high localised bearing forces inside the barrel. Hence I no longer try to use 4831 for cast bullets. (Actually I really hate cleaning the stuff out, too.) On the other hand a bunch of loose soot or unburned granules don't seem important to me unless they cause harm or loss of accuracy.

[Ricochet]

One thing that's unique about Unique is that it lists rosin among its ingredients on its MSDS. I'm unaware of another powder containing rosin.Throw some pine logs in your stove and keep the draft low, and you'll find a lot of soot forms.

Camphor was a chief ingredient of ballistite, Nobel's early smokeless powder from the 1880s, and I've smelled it in steel cased .223 ammo from Sellier & Bellot and 1977 Romanian military export 8mm ball ammo, both of whch were very sooty burning. The Soviets and their clients long stuck with the proven old formula and may still be using it. By WWII it had been learned how to synthesize camphor from turpentine. Camphor's a fine plasticizer for nitrocellulose. That was the basis of celluloid.

[targetshootr]

Well I'll be derned. Rosin. Wonder how Unique would behave if it didn't have it?

[Ricochet]

Like some other powder. :-D

[Ricochet]

As an aside, rosin also burns with a lovely bright yellow flame, and I suspect contributes to Unique's well known propensity to produce lovely brilliant muzzle flashes in pistols.

[felix]

There has to be a reason why they don't make a speed like 630 was. It was exactly between BlueDot and 2400/9/820 in speed. It was comprised of two kinds of powder, a small ball, and a larger flatten ball. Both had different specific gravities and that was the powder's demise. The balls would seperate out in a non uniform fashion. If you kept the powder stirred up, no problems unless you kept the loaded rounds in the trunk of the car for 6 months. It was taken off of the market because of various problems associated with these different balls over time. Now, it would be very nice indeed if another powder hit the market with the same speed designation, but made more correctly. I don't care if it has rosin or not, or some other funky deterrent. ... felix

[lovedogs]

When I was looking for a powder that'd work well for low speed long-range loads for my .45-70 I called several ballisticians to ask about fillers and about load densities and position sensitivity, etc.

I tried several powders and settled on AA5744. Boy, was it dirty. It looked like sand laying in the bottom of the bore. I called their ballistician back to inquire about it. He said to ignore it.

Still concerned, I pushed some of those granules out and looked at them. They were burned but not consumed, if you can relate to that. And they were like little waxy pellets. I thought they'd be hard and be a problem with fouling a bbl. But they didn't seem to bother anything. So I shot it. I'm not sure whether those kernals stay in and the bullet irons them or if they blow out ahead of the next bullet, but there's no problem with fouling or anything else.

Accuracy was phenominal. This rifle with this loading shoots MOA all the way to the limits of my range, almost 900 yds. With an aperture sight I'd say this is better than anyone would expect.

A friend of mine who also shoots a .45-70 refuses to use 5744 because it's dirty. The best his rifle will shoot is about 3 to 4 MOA. Of course, this could be the difference in our rifles instead of the powder. I just keep smiling and beating him at each match. Even after over 100 shots the bbl. cleans easily and is still shooting MOA. I no longer worry about how dirty a powder burns. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if it's actually beneficial sometimes. Could it have a sort of lubricating property? I think maybe this is the case with some of the ball powders and anything that leaves a waxy residue like 5744.

[Ricochet]

I don't care if it has rosin or not, or some other funky deterrent. ... felix
Oh, I don't either, or whether a powder's "dirty" burning or not. But I'm curious about the makeup of things and notice their characteristics, just as you do. I think there's a missing niche for 630, too.

[targetshootr]

I'm at the point where price matters more than cleanliness (kinda like my wimin [smilie=1:) but I agree with the original post that there should be a chart for that kind of thing just like burn rates. Thought I was gonna get a real deal on 8 lbs of an Alliant powder from a guy at the range so I asked for Unique but haven't heard a peep since. The factory guy suggested American Select burns cleanly.

[targetshootr]

The guy from Alliant wrote back today:

"Unique does have some rosin in it, as do many of our other powders. It is a solid material that is used as a deterrent. The amount used effects the burn speed of the powder. For instance, a fast burning powder such as Red Dot or Green Dot has less than Unique. Unique has less than Herco. At any rate, it should not be the cause your gun feel greasy. That feeling may be due in part to gun oil or cast bullet lube. "

So how it burns the lube must make the difference.