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45fan
09-18-2012, 01:46 AM
Hello all I have slugged my barrel of my 1911 and know now what sizing die I need to get. How do I determine size on my revolver, by slugging the barrel or the cylinder?

runfiverun
09-18-2012, 01:59 AM
both:
the cylinder throats to determine all of thier sizes.
and the bbl to measure and to look for tight spots.

Piedmont
09-18-2012, 05:01 AM
I almost never slug a revolver barrel. Match or exceed your cylinder throat size and start shooting. Only if you don't get acceptable results will you need to look any further.

Lefty SRH
09-18-2012, 05:05 AM
I almost never slug a revolver barrel. Match or exceed your cylinder throat size and start shooting. Only if you don't get acceptable results will you need to look any further.

Yep, match the size to the cylinder throats and shoot. If there's still a problem then slug the bore and compare that to the cylinder throats.

357shooter
09-18-2012, 05:32 AM
Ditto to the others, I size to the cylinder plus a little. As a quick check I take an oversize bullet and drive it into the muzzle about 1/8 inch. Yank it out with pliers, and see if it fits into each cylinder. If not, you you a problem.

mdi
09-18-2012, 11:09 AM
Yep, match the size to the cylinder throats and shoot. If there's still a problem then slug the bore and compare that to the cylinder throats.
Jes whut I was gonna say. I slug/measure the cylinder throats for bullet sizing and slug the barrel mostly for information. When I do this I have very little leading...

bobthenailer
09-18-2012, 12:44 PM
for the possibly 15 45 acp handguns ive owned over the years ive allways had excellent results wit bullet sized @.452 dia
for revolvers size@ cyl throat size , i have a few with oversized throats and thats the only way you can geet good accuracy with them there 44 mags and both need bullets sized @.433 to shoot accuratly my other 44 mags shoot .430 excellent

45fan
09-18-2012, 03:36 PM
Thanks for all the info all, seems as all I really need to do is measure throat of cylinder. Do I add any to that measurement .001 or .002?

357shooter
09-18-2012, 03:45 PM
You'll get a few different answers.

My 357's seem to like +.002 over throat size the best. However I've had some some equal to the throat that shot great. The way to tell is experiment and see what you gun likes the best.

The math and numbers help us to talk and compare notes, there really aren't that many hard and fast rules.

RetAFSF
09-18-2012, 04:27 PM
Ehhhhhh, more of an opinion vs researched fact, I would only slug an old firearm, one shot a lot or a knock-off/obscure Mfg'ed firearm (personally wouldn't buy one). Mfg standards and equipment in use today turn out quality firearms, with I'm sure a few exceptions, that exceed the abilities of say those of the 1940s. A reloader can turn that 1941 Russian contract 1911 into a serious shooter just by mixing and matching powder bullet weight/design & dia to find out what it likes but all in all new industry processes greatly improved mass production firearms. Factory ammo is mass produced to function in any firearm designed in the bullet caliber. Reloaders have the advantage of tweaking a load that surpasses mass produced ammo accuracy. For example out of my Colt Python I can expect 1" to 2" groups with reloads of the same weight/bullet design/dia that group shrinks down to 1/2" groups as long as this shooter does his part. Just my 2 cent opinion.

MtGun44
09-18-2012, 05:21 PM
Start at throat size and then go up .001 and maybe even .002. Mr. Target has the
answers.

Bill

44man
09-19-2012, 11:45 AM
There is no reason on earth to go over throat size. The boolit just gets sized down anyway. A perfect thumb push through throats is all you need. Even a hard boolit will upset enough to seal the throat if it is close. Seal in the bore is always more important.
Stop skid in the bore and the seal will be right.

357shooter
09-19-2012, 12:15 PM
I've heard that same logic but it hasn't proven to be true for my 357's.

The reason is that in my 357's, over throat size bullets are more accurate. In just about every gun that I've tested. (all 357's).

44man
09-19-2012, 01:36 PM
I've heard that same logic but it hasn't proven to be true for my 357's.

The reason is that in my 357's, over throat size bullets are more accurate. In just about every gun that I've tested. (all 357's).
I don't know why! Logic means it makes no sense.

fredj338
09-19-2012, 03:19 PM
In rev, both. If the cyl throats are small, & the bore large, you will likely get leading & poor accuracy. If the throats are large & bore smaller, results will vary, but often a better result. Smaller cyl throats are a bigger problem IMO. They size the bullet down & then it has to try & bump back up, not good for leading or accuracy. My last RBH was 0.4505 avg cyl throat & shot ok bu always leaded early. After opening the them to 0.4515", accuracy improved & leading went down pretty much nothing shooting 0.452" bullets.

**oneshot**
09-19-2012, 04:40 PM
I size to a snug push through on the cylinder.

mdi
09-22-2012, 03:42 PM
There is no reason on earth to go over throat size. The boolit just gets sized down anyway. A perfect thumb push through throats is all you need. Even a hard boolit will upset enough to seal the throat if it is close. Seal in the bore is always more important.
Stop skid in the bore and the seal will be right.

I tend to agree; cylinder throats will swage oversize bullets...

357shooter
09-22-2012, 04:01 PM
I tend to agree; cylinder throats will swage oversize bullets...

They most certianly do swage them. But that's why I test with my 357's. Sometimes what doesn't make sense actually works. I don't know about other calibers, but over throat size is consistenly more accurate on target in my revolvers.

44man
09-23-2012, 09:42 AM
I love a thumb push force fit in throats. Yet I shoot the SBH with all from .430" to .434" with .432" best in .4324" throats. Bore groove size is .430"
My BFR 45-70 has .4592" throats, .458" groove and I use .459".
BFR .475 has .4765" throats, .475" groove and I use .476" boolits.
My BFR JRH has .5015" throats and a .500 groove, I use .501" boolits.
Everyone knows my groups.
I will never see where swaging a boolit in throats is an advantage as it wipes GG's.
Here is an off hand group at 100 yards with a .430" boolit from the .4324" throats.

44man
09-23-2012, 10:24 AM
They most certianly do swage them. But that's why I test with my 357's. Sometimes what doesn't make sense actually works. I don't know about other calibers, but over throat size is consistenly more accurate on target in my revolvers.
You might be doing very well, it is OK. It is just I never proved it with my guns. I will never argue with results.
Actually, I find the .357 hard to work with and since I hunt deer, I no longer have one to test. The best .357 I ever owned was a S&W model 27 with an 8-3/8, ribbed barrel that would hold 1" at 100 yards. I shot the 358156 HP sized .357", original mold.
Back then we knew nothing about boolit fit yet my flat top Ruger would hit targets at 400 to 500 yards, my original Marlin 25-20 would shoot 3/4" at 100 with open sights and the model 71 would do 1". I never got the Marlin 35 Rem to shoot cast but jacketed would do 1/2" at 100. I knew nothing about over size for the Marlin micro groove.
I have shot cast all my life and even in 1956 my .44 flat top was a 100 yard gun to as far as I could see. Never gave it a thought to shoot 25 yards!
Even today, I set targets at 100 after sighting at 50 with a revolver. I go to 200 and clear to 547 yards. Elmer was right! :bigsmyl2:
I shot this with a new, out of box, BFR, .500 JRH at 50 yards. Just under throat size.

357shooter
09-23-2012, 11:17 AM
Your long range results with the BFR are just amazing!

I'm coming to the same conclusion that the .357 is mayb a little quirky compared to larger calibers.

mdi
09-23-2012, 11:54 AM
I've found with my revolvers if the bullet is much over cylinder throat diameter I'll get leading (or mebbe lead "spray) on the cylinder face, frame, and around thr forcing cone...

Moonman
09-23-2012, 12:21 PM
mdi,

Check the Barrel/Cylinder Gap, it may be EXCESSIVE.

Cylinder Gaps that are TOO MUCH and Bevel Base Bullets lead even more.

bones37
09-23-2012, 01:16 PM
I've found with my revolvers if the bullet is much over cylinder throat diameter I'll get leading (or mebbe lead "spray) on the cylinder face, frame, and around thr forcing cone...

I am having this same problem with a 629-6. I am getting lead smearing in the chamber beyond the end of the case(using 44 special) and up into the throat(s) Also, there is this " spray" on the cylinder face, frame and forcing cone as you described.

44man
09-23-2012, 01:24 PM
mdi,

Check the Barrel/Cylinder Gap, it may be EXCESSIVE.

Cylinder Gaps that are TOO MUCH and Bevel Base Bullets lead even more.
Gap is something I never paid much attention to. Boolit jump to the cone and rifling doesn't seem to be important either.
In the .357 I am thinking tension can vary too much on boolits just from the diameter of the brass. Then there might be too much primer pressure so I would try standard primers too, even with H110 and 296.
I have to load some .357's for my mailman so I will measure seating pressure. I will have to borrow his gun to test primers.

MtGun44
09-23-2012, 03:51 PM
My THEORY on why some guns need "over throat diameter" is possibly an out of
round throat or boolit so that without oversize there is still a bad fit.

Not proven, just a theory. FACT is that some of my revolvers shoot better with .001
or .002 oversized - most do not need .002, but many seem to like .001 over.

Bill

Char-Gar
09-23-2012, 04:06 PM
There is no reason on earth to go over throat size. The boolit just gets sized down anyway. A perfect thumb push through throats is all you need. Even a hard boolit will upset enough to seal the throat if it is close. Seal in the bore is always more important.
Stop skid in the bore and the seal will be right.

I would agree with this, IF a fellow is working with one revolver. There are times when I am loading ammo that will be used in sixguns that have cylinder throats that vary. In that case, I size for the largest throat size and shoot the ammo in the others as well.

Example... I have many 38/357 sixguns with throats that run from .357 to .359. I will size the bullets .359 and use that ammo in all of them.

I freely admit that this is for the sake of expediency and will probably not deliver the very best accuracy in each revolver, but the accuracy will be plenty good enough for 99.9% of what we shoot at.

This is the one "reason on earth", I can think of to go over throat size. Some of us, just have to darn many sixguns to fiddle around loading tailor made ammo for each individual sixgun. Other than this exception, 44man is dead nuts on.

44man
09-23-2012, 04:30 PM
I would agree with this, IF a fellow is working with one revolver. There are times when I am loading ammo that will be used in sixguns that have cylinder throats that vary. In that case, I size for the largest throat size and shoot the ammo in the others as well.

Example... I have many 38/357 sixguns with throats that run from .357 to .359. I will size the bullets .359 and use that ammo in all of them.

I freely admit that this is for the sake of expediency and will probably not deliver the very best accuracy in each revolver, but the accuracy will be plenty good enough for 99.9% of what we shoot at.

This is the one "reason on earth", I can think of to go over throat size. Some of us, just have to darn many sixguns to fiddle around loading tailor made ammo for each individual sixgun. Other than this exception, 44man is dead nuts on.
That is correct, right way to go.
I would lap all to .359".
What you say might be the reason some of the .357's are picky. I only measured all throats on a few guns.
Lapping can round out an oblong throat too.
The big problem we had with one .357 was it had all .357" throats but the bore was out of round with the largest groove at .3599".
Lapping is easy and really works. I found it can work better then a reamer.

357shooter
09-23-2012, 05:01 PM
My THEORY on why some guns need "over throat diameter" is possibly an out of
round throat or boolit so that without oversize there is still a bad fit.

Not proven, just a theory. FACT is that some of my revolvers shoot better with .001
or .002 oversized - most do not need .002, but many seem to like .001 over.

Bill

+1. Glad I'm not the only one, there may only be two of us though. :smile: :smile: :smile:

Char-Gar
09-23-2012, 06:02 PM
That is correct, right way to go.
I would lap all to .359".
What you say might be the reason some of the .357's are picky. I only measured all throats on a few guns.
Lapping can round out an oblong throat too.
The big problem we had with one .357 was it had all .357" throats but the bore was out of round with the largest groove at .3599".
Lapping is easy and really works. I found it can work better then a reamer.


Most of my 38/357 sixguns are of the vintage/collectable stage of their lives and I don't feel inclined to modify them in any way, just to get a smidge better accuracy.

I am something of a 38 Special nut with over 20 vintge Smiths and Colts. I also have a number of Smith and Colt 44s that I regard the same way. I still enjoy shooting them and each takes thier turn seeing the light of day, being removed from the safe. I have a generic load I shoot in these sixguns. Works for me.

With the Rugers, I will size to exact throat size mentioned.

Char-Gar
09-23-2012, 06:06 PM
+1. Glad I'm not the only one, there may only be two of us though. :smile: :smile: :smile:

I have not be able to prove or establish in any sixgun that oversized (for the throats) improve accuracy. I am however convinced, by shooting, that oversized bullets either do not degrade accuracy or only by a small and insigniciant (to me) amount. Others who into ultimate accuracy may not find that amount insignificant.

So much of the stuff we talk about here is subjective and personal that it is hard, or impossible, to lay down the law and say..this is the way it is! We are taking about personal experience and not hard and fast proof by lab protocols.

Mal Paso
09-23-2012, 09:28 PM
I am having this same problem with a 629-6. I am getting lead smearing in the chamber beyond the end of the case(using 44 special) and up into the throat(s) Also, there is this " spray" on the cylinder face, frame and forcing cone as you described.

Both of the 629s I've measured had Cylinder Throats smaller than the Barrel Groove.

44man
09-24-2012, 10:05 AM
I have not be able to prove or establish in any sixgun that oversized (for the throats) improve accuracy. I am however convinced, by shooting, that oversized bullets either do not degrade accuracy or only by a small and insigniciant (to me) amount. Others who into ultimate accuracy may not find that amount insignificant.

So much of the stuff we talk about here is subjective and personal that it is hard, or impossible, to lay down the law and say..this is the way it is! We are taking about personal experience and not hard and fast proof by lab protocols.
That is how I feel. Most times it does not hurt accuracy to go larger then throat but it has never improved it for me. This will depend on the boolit too. The Lee TL can have the GG's and lube removed before the bore is reached.
Then a boolit that enters the throat can not be chambered.
I feel a boolit just barely under throat by .0005" or a little less is fine. Yet I can shoot boolits well under throat. Alignment I guess.

1bluehorse
09-24-2012, 12:25 PM
Most everything I've learned about shooting cast lead bullets :Fire: has come from here and places referred to from here. It's been quite a journey. (one I'm sure isn't near over) What I have come to believe from all the information and what shooting I have done is the the bullet should be sized to the cylinder throat. (as long as it (throat) is slightly larger than barrel groove size.) ie; for 45 colt, .4525 cyl, .451ish groove dia. MtGun 44 makes a very good point to consider, but I trust the sizing die in my lubrasizer to size a 453ish bullet to .452(ish) at least as well as the cylinder throats on my revolvers. I have measured all the Ruger 45 colts I have had (many, with 4 left) and they all were undersized in the cyls. and groove on all were .451/.4515. All had varying amounts of thread choke and some had tight spots in the barrels. I reamed all cyls to .4525 and firelappped each of them to where a .442 pin gauge will slide completly down the barrel, ( a .443 won't start from the muzzle) I think this is about as good as I can do with them. I would take these same steps with any caliber (in fact have done so with my wifes .357s) ( I have not the equipment or knowledge for line boring nor does my shooting ability warrant it) This is a long winded way of saying I agree with 44MAN and Char-Gar, and this is quite possibly way more info than anyone wanted to read....but I enjoyed sharing it with you all....:drinks:

Char-Gar
09-24-2012, 01:20 PM
I have run into zero Colts and only one Smith and Wesson that had cylinder throats larger than barrel groove diameter. That one Smith was an early 6" blue 29 with the underlug barrel. The throats were OK at .430, but the barrel groove was a whopping .432. I sold that gun down river ASAP.

I am not big into Ruger SA sixguns, but have owned 6 or 8. The NM Blackhawks were too tight in the cylinder thoats. I had them reamed. Recently I bought one of the new Lipsey's 45 Flatop sixgun on the smaller frame. This is the best Ruger that has passed through my hands. The cylinder throats are a uniform .452 and the barrel is .451 and is so smooth there is zero leading from any load I have put through it.

I first read of the relationship of cast bullet, cylinder throats and barrel groove in a Guns Digest piece written by Elmer Kieth entitled Sixgun Miscellany, published in the mid 1950s. So this issue has been around quite some time. The advent of the jacketed bullet in the sixgun put the art and science of cast bullets in the sixgun on the back burner for a generation or two. I am glad to see it coming back to the forefront again.

9.3X62AL
09-24-2012, 01:45 PM
So much of the stuff we talk about here is subjective and personal that it is hard, or impossible, to lay down the law and say..this is the way it is! We are taking about personal experience and not hard and fast proof by lab protocols.

THIS! ^^^

There's a least a metric ton of great info in this thread. My only addition would be that we all should assure that those boolits we so carefully size to fit or slightly exceed our cylinder throats AREN'T being reduced while seating via use of undersized expander spuds in our die sets. MOST die sets these days "assume" the use of jacketed bullets, and most of their expander spuds/balls/stems are TOO %^$# SMALL. Perhaps the folks using the boolits @ .002"+ throat diameter are unknowingly accomodating & adjusting to such tooling quirks.

MtGun44
09-24-2012, 01:49 PM
Good point, Al.

Bill

Char-Gar
09-24-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Al's excellent point

I am a believer in soft cast bullets in sixguns.
I am a believer in soft bullet lube in cast bullets in sixguns

Therefore; I expand case necks to not not under .001 smaller than bullet size.

Piedmont
09-24-2012, 02:46 PM
A couple of points that don't seem to occur to some of you are that if you have loose chambers an oversized bullet will center better and give a straight launch into the throat. Also, an oversize bullet will change the resistance and therefor how the powder burns. That can change accuracy.

357shooter
09-24-2012, 02:48 PM
I agree that Al made a good point. That's why I checked and verified that my over throat size bullets aren't being swaged down by the brass. They aren't.

They are still more accurate in my 357's.

I don't shoot bigger calibers and don't suggest this is true of them, or that handloading for all calibers is the same. :smile: :smile: :smile:

Char-Gar
09-24-2012, 03:07 PM
A couple of points that don't seem to occur to some of you are that if you have loose chambers an oversized bullet will center better and give a straight launch into the throat. Also, an oversize bullet will change the resistance and therefor how the powder burns. That can change accuracy.

There is a tapered leade between the charge hole and the cylinder throat proper. It take a mighty big bullet to fill that leade to the point it will hold the round straight for entrance into the throat.

The cure for a loose chamber is best found in using a neck sizing die that does very little sizing on the body of the case. You need just enough sizing of the base of the brass for easy rechambering of the loaded round.

Piedmont
09-24-2012, 06:42 PM
Char-gar, I don't really see the leade being a problem because the bullet bearing length is so much longer than the lead. So if the chamber is pretty well filled by the bullet and case up front it has to go relatively straight forward and there is still plenty of bullet in the case when the front band gets into cylinder throat proper. This might not appy shooting some .38 bullets in .357 chambers but that isn't as accurate as using .357 cases and maybe that is part of the reason.

A smaller bullet that might even match the clyinder throat in diameter but in a loose chamber would have to bounce up off the bottom portion of the lead because gravity and a loose chamber would put it down there. Take-off then would not be as straight into the throat.

9.3X62AL
09-24-2012, 07:28 PM
More good thought from Piedmont.

I think the original thrust of the thread was to come up with a listing of possible fixes that can be applied to "problem" revolvers in order to make them behave mo bettah. Piedmont took the issue a little further back--into the chamber--while I was focused on the throats, primarily. My Bisley in 45 Colt gave me some grief like that you describe. Thanks kindly, sir.

When you stop and think on the operating principles involved in revolver function.....it's almost surprising that they shoot as well as they do. I can't hold a candle to 44 Man's range work with a wheelgun, but I can wring some good results from most rollerpistoles with due diligence and mindful ammo prep.

fredj338
09-25-2012, 12:30 AM
Both of the 629s I've measured had Cylinder Throats smaller than the Barrel Groove.

Then open them up, they will certainly shoot better.

1bluehorse
09-25-2012, 12:28 PM
The Missus has a couple .357 Cimmeron Thunderers that measure .380 for the chambers and .358 throats. With most brass measuring around .11, an oversize bullet shouldn't chamber in them. (actually they won't, tried .360 and the only way was to run them through a LFCD)(in fact a true .358 bullet would appear to be a tight fit also) The more I think I'm learning the more confused I become...[smilie=b:

Char-Gar
09-25-2012, 01:54 PM
The Missus has a couple .357 Cimmeron Thunderers that measure .380 for the chambers and .358 throats. With most brass measuring around .11, an oversize bullet shouldn't chamber in them. (actually they won't, tried .360 and the only way was to run them through a LFCD)(in fact a true .358 bullet would appear to be a tight fit also) The more I think I'm learning the more confused I become...[smilie=b:

I fail to see what makes you confused. The size of the charge hole should not be an issue, unless it is so big the brass splits. As long as a round with a proper cast bullet will chamber, a tight charge hole is a good thing. The little Thunderer is not a target pistol any way. If the cylinder throats are .358 then shoot .357 or .358 cast bullets and move on.

What is the thinking about trying to put oversize bullets in those cases? Now that I don't get.

Take that Lee FCD to a large body of water, and see how far you can throw it toward the center of said large body of water. You will get extra points if it hits the water at a low angle and skips at least once.

MtGun44
09-25-2012, 03:43 PM
Lee pistol type FCD can/will size down the boolit in the case, be careful.

See if different brands of brass will permit chambering with .358 or .359 diam test
rounds.

Bill

1bluehorse
09-25-2012, 04:02 PM
I fail to see what makes you confused. The size of the charge hole should not be an issue, unless it is so big the brass splits. As long as a round with a proper cast bullet will chamber, a tight charge hole is a good thing. The little Thunderer is not a target pistol any way. If the cylinder throats are .358 then shoot .357 or .358 cast bullets and move on.

.358 is what I size for these guns.....

What is the thinking about trying to put oversize bullets in those cases? Now that I don't get.

The mold I cast from throws a .360 bullet, and in the theme of this thread just thought I would try it unsized...didn't work....:smile:

Take that Lee FCD to a large body of water, and see how far you can throw it toward the center of said large body of water. You will get extra points if it hits the water at a low angle and skips at least once.

I do not use this die any longer for any pistol caliber I load for which are 44, 357, and 45 colt. I will add however, I did not have any "swaging" issues with the 45 colt. :holysheep I have thought of purchasing the collet type sizing die for these calibers that someone is making. (I have that info somewhere):oops:

Mal Paso
09-25-2012, 05:06 PM
Both of the 629s I've measured had Cylinder Throats smaller than the Barrel Groove.


Then open them up, they will certainly shoot better.

Already did that's why had was emphasized. May I recommend Manson Reamers.

357shooter
09-26-2012, 06:08 AM
I do not use this die any longer for any pistol caliber I load for which are 44, 357, and 45 colt. I will add however, I did not have any "swaging" issues with the 45 colt. :holysheep I have thought of purchasing the collet type sizing die for these calibers that someone is making. (I have that info somewhere):oops:

Lee also makes a rifle FCD that is the collet style. It's completely different from the pistol FCD from Lee.

The RFCD is very effective and a great product. I use one for 357 mag.

That's at least one source, someone here may be making them too.

MtGun44
09-27-2012, 02:28 PM
+1 - it is important to distinguish between Lee RIFLE type FCD which is a collet crimper
that has worked very well for me, and the Lee PISTOL type FCD which is a taper crimp
die with a carbide ring which has cause havoc for many users by sizing down the boolit
while it is inside the case. IMO, the pistol FCD is a solution looking for a problem.

One additional confusion factor is that Ranch Dog apparenty ordered some .45 Colt and
maybe other pistol caliber Lee custom dies that were PISTOL caliber and COLLET type,
not the carbide ring resizer type. These were intended to support pistol caliber lever
action rifles, which need a reliable crimp.

Bill

357shooter
09-27-2012, 03:57 PM
Lee wil custom make the pistol calibers in the RFCD. I just ordered a 357 magnum, which they had in stock. If you check their site they sometimes have other pistol caliber Rifle FCD's in stock too. Or they can be custom ordered. The price is the same, I think.

bones37
09-28-2012, 12:47 PM
Already did that's why had was emphasized. May I recommend Manson Reamers.

Thank You! I will certainly do just that. I did measure the throats in my 629 and found the same results as You described, the throats are undersized.