Win 94 in 30-30 enigma

[ggb3]

Hello all,
I have a bit of an enigma that I think on from time to time. No particular good way to find out the real history, however, I wanted some other opinions / points of view on what may have happened. In the end, doesn’t matter much, just curiosity on my part. Anyway, here is the situation.

A year or so ago I purchased what looks to be a very nice 1958 Winnie 94. The edges, lettering, and numbers are crisp and sharp, and the screw heads are flawless. The bluing is beautiful, the stock and forearm is beautifully grained and, a higher gloss than typically seen, at least in my experience. However, the rifle does not look like it has ever been refinished and, very lightly used.

The seller had no history; at least that he would share. When I received it from my FFL, I worked the action and the upper part of a case fell out. The case head was separated about where it would have had it been reloaded too many times, stretching until it gave way. The case head was gone, nowhere to be found. The remaining part of the case had no scratch marks, like it had been reloaded, no other sign of thinning at the separation, no bright areas, no trim / or burr removal sign at the case mouth, nothing that I could discern from a factory round.

The bore had a heavy dust, like it had been oiled and put under a bed or in a closet for many, many moons. Not a bit of rust, and very sharp rifling. The rifling did have heavy, to me, copper fouling at the lower right portion of the grooves.

The headspace seems to check out. I do not have an actual go-no-go, but a check with a round seems to be ok. I have shot ~40 rounds or so and all seems well, decent accuracy, however, have not spent enough time yet to state MOA.

For some reason, all of this adds up to an enigma for me. The shiny stocks, the mint bluing, sharp edges (where they should be). It is missing the sight hood. Seems like it had to be refinished, yet, no evidence that it had been.

A possibility is: The rifle was purchased new, shot enough to get the copper fouling, a case separated, and the shooter messed his britches and put it up for ~50 years and then someone pawned it.

Again, this is more academic than anything. Varying opinions welcomed.

Thank you,
George

[Haggway]

Sounds like it got stuck back, like you said. I would think if it was a reblue or restore, the bore would look new and there would have not been a case broken off.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have several guns from that era that have not been reblued and they still look very nice.

It comes from one of two things usually, one the gun was not shot very much, and stored well,

or it was taken care of.

Since the .30-30 case headspaces on the rim I doubt the broken case was as a result of excessive headspace, It is pretty hard to get one of those guns out of headspace so to speak.

As far as the bluing goes, smeared numbers and letters are a sure sign of a reblue job, but just because they are all still sharp doesn't mean it hasn't been reblued. Birchwood Casey sells a solution that removes bluing instantly, and wouldn't touch the letters in the slightest as there would be no machine buffing involved. This type of thing is pretty easy to get around if you know your finishing techniques and pay attention to the details.

With what you describe, I'd say it is an original "Closet Queen."

Randy

[helice]

I can see that this problem is causing you a lot of anxiety. How much would you pay me to take this problem off your hands?:bigsmyl2:

[TXGunNut]

Enjoy. Quite often we all wish rifles could talk.

[OverMax]

As thin as 30-30 cases can be it doesn't surprise me one may have separated. The previous owner probably thought it was too costly to have the balance of the shell removed or He wreaked his own rifle, so into the closet it went. Perhaps forgotten about. Along comes a close relative and pawns it. I don't see a need to say anymore. I'll let others fill in the gaps with their theory's and speculations.

[ggb3]

Thank you all for your input.

Helice, although your offer is attractive and yes, I think on the history from time to time. The worry is not worth the hassle of shipping. So, I have to decline your offer. If it gets on my nerves too much in the future, I will keep you in mind...... : )

[helice]

Well stink.
Logical minds prevail.

[9.3X62AL]

Well stink.
Logical minds prevail.

Don't ya hate it when that happens? :)

I think the OP's explanation for the matter makes as much sense as any other possible course of events. From all appearances, you have a very fine example of Winchester craftsmanship produced at a time when the company really did things well. There are several solvents available now to resolve the copper-in-bore issue, with careful use that rifle will be a cast boolit platform of the first order. The 30/30 WCF is among the best of cast boolit rifle calibers ever made.

[ggb3]

Don't ya hate it when that happens? :)

I think the OP's explanation for the matter makes as much sense as any other possible course of events. From all appearances, you have a very fine example of Winchester craftsmanship produced at a time when the company really did things well. There are several solvents available now to resolve the copper-in-bore issue, with careful use that rifle will be a cast boolit platform of the first order. The 30/30 WCF is among the best of cast boolit rifle calibers ever made.

I agree. Removing the coper was the first order of the day. I had removed it months before I had a chance to fire it. I added a couple of pics below.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_693150563ff65a5cf.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6702)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_69315056400e06847.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6703)

[OverMax]

Pretty wood George. Glad the rifle worked out good for yaw.

[9.3X62AL]

Gorgeous!

[TXGunNut]

Wow! Awesome rifle, fantastic wood. If she were in my safe the next owner would be a lucky heir!

[Mk42gunner]

Wow, that looks like what a brand new rifle should look like.

Here's my theory/ guess: Some one bought the rifle and shot a box of shells through it, then reloaded the cases two or three times with a Lyman tong tool (neck size only). When they had a case separate, the next round would not chamber, so it was wiped down and stuck in the closet.

Fast forward 50 years, give or take, and Grandpa has passed away and it is time to cash in/ get those evil inanimate objects out of here.

You Sir, are the lucky recipient.

Wishing I had that kind of luck,

Robert

[thebigmac]

Hello guys; ANYONE OUT THERE HAVING A MOULD FOR A MARLIN 336 IN .35
REMINGTON--200 GRS. Please PM me

THANKS, bigmac

[JIMinPHX]

Some of the older 30-30 ammo was loaded with les-smoke, BP &/or corrosive priming. I've seen plenty of older ammo in that caliber with a bad case of green crud. The head separation may have been the result of corrosion.

[TXGunNut]

Hello guys; ANYONE OUT THERE HAVING A MOULD FOR A MARLIN 336 IN .35
REMINGTON--200 GRS. Please PM me

THANKS, bigmac

Ranch Dog has a few 359-190 moulds left, when they're gone you most likely will have missed that boat. Visit his site and read what he has to say. I'd be happy to send you a few but I'm still working on alloys, lube, checks and other issues. By the time I send you a sample and you take the time to evaluate them he will most likely be sold out.
I think Michael has a fine design and would recommend purchasing his mould while still available. RCBS has a design that folks around here like but I have no experience with it.
Your post amounts to hi-jacking, a new thread on the subject is appropriate and would attract more responses.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK now with the pics I have to reassess my earlier statment. That gun has definately been refinished.

First: Winchester Stock combs were not fluted like that, and second the matal wasn't polished to that high a luster before bluing.

Still it looks nice and definately better than stock.

I personally don't see anythinnwrong with refinishing an older gun that needs it. I don't feel it detracts from the value unless the work was done by a hack.

They made 7 million M94's and the best of them were Winchester Custom shop guns. That gun is not a custom shop gun so it is valued just like anyother M94.

Just shoot it and enjoy it, and don't worry about some obscure value issue. It is worth whatever someone is willing to pay which is exactly how you got it in the first place.

Randy

[ggb3]

Hello all,
Thank y'all for the comments.

Randy,
Yes, with the pics you can see more of where I was coming from; that it had to be refinished. However, every bit of this gun points to "close to new out of the box" with enough rounds fired for some copper deposits. I mean it has virtually no wear. (Not finish wear, but steel, component, wood, wear). Wood probably was an upgraded grain over original.

With the details I can see with it in front of me, someone would have purchased this new and immediately had it reworked, fired a bit, and then put it up.

All of the things that I see and many of you pointed to and you stated, I can agree with. Of course, I am working off the assumption that: nobody would buy a new gun and immediately have it worked over, shoot it a few times, possibly even reload for it, have a case blow out and put it up for ~50 years. Now, my assumption is flawed as people do all kinds of good and bad things that do not necessarily make sense.

If it were used to the point of needed a refinish, usually, it takes extraordinary skill and, possibly is not possible to do without evidence of a refinish. Such as removing pits takes away metal with no easy way of putting it back. Parts loosen up. (this action is tight, again, just like it came out of the box).

Hopefully, I am explaining this well and getting my thoughts across. By the way, what would a custom shop job look like from that general era? (The late 50s).

All of this said, I am not particularly interested in value. I think it is a beautiful gun regardless.

I do appreciate all y'alls input on this. Gives me more to think on......

[Char-Gar]

Yep a refinish for sure and for certain. I have two Winchester 94s of that vintage that are 99% or better. Both the metal and the wood have been refinished on the rifle in the photo. The fluting of the comb was done at the time of the refinish. I can see the polish marks on the metal runing fore and aft even in the pic, the metal color is also wrong. A winchester factory polish left zero marks on the metal. The factory wood finish was a low gloss oil finish. The high gloss finish on this stock looks like Tru-Oil.

The guy who did the refinish was a good craftsman, but the rifle looks far from being anywhere near new. I would not fine a coppered barrel strange on a rifle that has had both metal and wood refinished at a later date.

As for being tight as new, I would have to have it in my hands to make any comment on that.

[jlchucker]

OK now with the pics I have to reassess my earlier statment. That gun has definately been refinished.

First: Winchester Stock combs were not fluted like that, and second the matal wasn't polished to that high a luster before bluing.

Still it looks nice and definately better than stock.

I personally don't see anythinnwrong with refinishing an older gun that needs it. I don't feel it detracts from the value unless the work was done by a hack.

They made 7 million M94's and the best of them were Winchester Custom shop guns. That gun is not a custom shop gun so it is valued just like anyother M94.

Just shoot it and enjoy it, and don't worry about some obscure value issue. It is worth whatever someone is willing to pay which is exactly how you got it in the first place.

Randy

Randy, you're right about the fluting, except that the Classic line made in the late 1960's with 26 inch and 24 inch octagon barrels were produced with fluted combs, as were some of the garish "commemoratives" that were being offered during the same era. Lots of these guns had some pretty nice walnut on them. Maybe this rifle, somewhere along the way, got a stock that originally came from one of these. Anyway, it looks like a very nice gun. The owner should clean the copper out of the barrel, work up a good cast boolit load, and be proud to carry and shoot this piece.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you look at the flutes you'll see they don't look quite right IE they don't go all the way down and blend to the to the wrist line of the stock. See pic below.

Also the stock is NOT Winchester Red as a custon shop gun would have been,,,See (Turnbull Restoration site for correct color, which I might add is not that easy to duplicate.) Also there would have been checkering present.

The gun is just a decent looking refinish.

Nothing wrong with that, it is just not a super duper collectors item.

I say shoot it and enjoy it. AS the idea of not shooting a gun because it is a "collectors Item" makes about as much sense to me as owning a stable of Classic cars and never driving them cuz they are too valuable.

These things were all meant to be used.

If you look at royalty in Europe they may have 2-3 Identical High end British Shotguns worth $100K each to shoot driven birds. But they still get used, and their servants take damn good care of them and after 100 years they still look nearly as new. If something happens to the gun like it gets dropped or something breaks, it goes back to H&H or Purdy and gets fixed and brought back to original finish. I doubt it will ever be worth less than it cost new,

Just because it cost a zillon dollars or is of a high status doesn't mean it doesn't get shot. It also costs a bunch to get a gun like this worked on, but since they have the money it is not an issue. This is why outfits like that can exist. If you have to ask how much it is you can't afford it! But they also have long waits for products and services so I think business is good. Big money isn't effected by hard times.

This is just a higher plane than we as regular dudes normally live with in the field. Our guns tend to be less expensive and to some degree receive less attention than a gun for a king or prince. This is mainly due once again to the money factor.

But their guns were still made to be used, and just because they have a bunch of fancy engraving that some guy slaved over for 6-8 months doesn't alter that fact one bit.

Granted there are some guns that are strictly art pieces, however in my opinion if they won't fire they don't deserve status as guns, they are just pallets for the art work. You could achieve the same thing on a silver serving dish.

The idea of a Commemorative M94 loosing it's "value" if it is shot kind of makes me laugh. If it's that important it needs to be in a museum, not in some guys safe. Doubt you'll see many of the Generic Commemorative models in museums.

I say shoot them all. Use builds character!

Randy

[Char-Gar]

Nobody with a knowledge of Winchester rifles of that period would think the rifle came from the factory like that.

Now the question is, "What difference does that make?". My answer is NONE. It will shoot just as well as one that was factory fresh. The only problem would be if a guy got skinned by some sharpie selling a refinished rifle as factory minty.

I have been going to gunshows and gun shops for well over a half century and I have seen many, many, many guns misrepresented either by design or through ignorance. The man that takes the word of a salesman for anything is fair game. Do your homework, know what you want and then buy.

[helice]

Well stink George,
You turn down my generous offer to relieve you of all that anxiety and then you post a couple pictures to break my heart.:D
That is a beautiful Winchester. I'm glad you picked up such a sweet one. They made 'em right back then.

[ggb3]

Thanks again for the information. I really never have been concerned over any value. I am happy with the price I gave for it and again, I highly suspected it had been refinished. While I am certainly no Win. expert, I'm familiar with the general properties of them over the years.

The gun is a shooter and I think it is a good looking one. I also think the ones that have hardly a bit of finish left and have sign of honest use and being taken care of are beautiful as well.

If only they could talk......

[w30wcf]

George,
That is one georgous '94! Thank you for the pics.
I'm thinking the rifle was restocked with some beautiful wood.

Regarding the broken case, if it was a reload on a case that had previously been fired with a mercuric primer which weakens brass, that could cause a seperation.
Been there....done that (foolishly)....

Enjoy that fine rifle.

w30wcf