ok, so I have a question....

[Captain_Howdy]

Here is my question...but first forgive me for I am new and I have also been enjoying a few more beers than possibly needed...background first then the questions.

Firstly, maybe I am overthinking this all, but I am an aircraft mechanic, old school crew cheif, Air Force trained... C141 guy... anyways...

I started this all with a lee tumble lube mold... a few actually, but the one stirring the pot is the 9mm mold. Anyway my mold drops boolits anywhere from .358-.360 depending on the measurement location...no big deal, I can handle this regardless of Lee's claim to mold and go...my barrel slugged at .355 on the Taraus PT92AF anyway. So I decided to wait before loading and ordered the Lee sizer at .356. I just got through running roughly 300 boolits through the sizer and I was thinking...maybe the beer is driving me mad, but I was still thinking...

If the driving/lube bands are sized in a manner that is not in longitudinal alignment with the bullet ogive...which I must think that they are due to the fact there is an obvious degree of more material affected on one side than the other...would this misalignment, or coencentricity, induce wobble and inaccuracy as the bullet rotates across its longitudinal axis as it leaves the barrel?

I do not know if I am getting my idea across...but it seems like the Lee sizing die is centering the cast boolit on the bands and thereby sizing on the bands disregarding the gyroscopic mass of the boolit and the boolit's centerline on the ogive... is anyone following me? Or am I pissing up a pole facing into the wind?

Question #2: I lubed these boolits with Lee liquid alox. I have cast and lubed and loaded over 500 rds of this stuff for 45acp. The more I do it the more I dislike it. Honestly it seems crude and counterproductive. Just my noob opinion...I have been a reloader for over 20 years and just recently gotten into pistol loading and casting my own...but the entire tumble lube process seems messy to say the least...and maybe not so productive. Ok, the question: If I lube these tumble lube boolits and resize them in the lee sizing die and the resizing process does not remove the lube from the existing grooves is it truly necessary to lube them a second time? It seems to me there is a buildup or excess of lube on the ogive and nose sections of the boolit. Whereas the part of the boolit where it would seem most important-- there is not as much surface area for the lube to adhere to anyway as it might be wiped of during the seating process...and what isn't affected by that process is in the groves...which isnt affected by the sizing action anyway...

Trying to expalin my thoughts are making my head hurt. Maybe all of this is just an excersize in futility anyway. I need another beer.

Some help me out here.

As a good note however, the Lee TL bullets as cast for my 45 acp range from .452-.453 and seem to shoot quite well when loaded with 5gns of w231. My only complaint is the boolits do not drop uniform. But I can easily hit an 8 inch plate at 25 yds consistantly with them with that load and it seems to hit reasonably hard with no weapons malfunctions whatsoever with no excessive leading.

Opinions? Am I being stupid or over thinking?

Thanks,
Wes

[canyon-ghost]

Doesn't sound stupid to me at all. I use a Lyman lubersizer that takes a nose punch to line up the bullet. While that would seem to size to the ogive, it does usually end up being concentric on the driving band. I'm not acquainted with the Lee sizer so, I'll let someone else come up with the final say.

It's almost the same with the Tumble Lube, I don't use it so, I wouldn't know. They claim it needs a second coat, say it keeps barely enough lube on the bullet. Sometimes I think they say that the round exceeds the capability of TL. Still not real sure about that.

If you think the bullets don't drop uniformly you may try changing systems. I run my casting pot just a tad hot and use a little tin. It takes very little of that expensive tin to make it work out better.

Good Luck,
Ron

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Try Recluse lube for tumble lubing,

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67654

[Silvercreek Farmer]

If you are happy with your 45, load away and shoot it!

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Captian_ Howdy. Unless your 9mm round is being seated so as to be engraved by rifling leade...and that is probably not advisable in an auto pistol, then your ctg is probably out of line with bore at moment of firing..this would have a far greater effect than any off-center of mass when sizing only .002" to .004" in your Lee sizing die.
When that big light comes on..that bullet will be slammed thru bore in whatever position it was in at ignition. The moment it clears the muzzle, the bullet will be free of bore restrictions & tend to revolve around it's center of mass.
Note--breech-seating of cast-lead bullets..where a specially chambered throat or a tapered bullet..or both..was found to be the most accurate way to launch the relativly soft lead bullets way back before the turn of the 19th century.
I never have used the LEE tumble system, I either pan lube with my own lubes, and use either the Lee sizer only, or Corbin reloading-press sizer die, or a Lyman lube-sizer.

[Captain_Howdy]

I would like to thank the posters who have so far replied...I didn't think I was communicating my ideas in an understandable manner but you guys did understand. Good for you guys for being intelligent guys!

to canyon-ghost: I do plan on trying different systems...mp molds inbound...mold's'...

silverercreek farmer: the 45 acp rounds seem to satisfy for what they are...very cheap plinkers that get my 1911 more action than it has seen in years and it makes me realize how great the 1911 system is...or relive what I learned about it from back in the early 90's...I love those 1911's and the things they do!!!

.22-10-45: sir your post does indeed make sense to me in a scientific way, yes the slug should indeed rotate around its center of mass just as a planet would its axis...still I feel it might have a bit of wobble, maybe I am wrong...

all in all some good replies and I thank you for them

[MtGun44]

.356 is probably too small for most 9mms. For pistols, the boolits self center well enough
in most situations.

Bill

[runfiverun]

i had to go to 358 in my taurus 92.[neverminding what the bbl slugged] just so ya know.

[454PB]

Though I do occasionally use the Lee LA tumble lube, I'm not a big fan of the stuff. I avoid the prelubing before sizing all together and instead smear a little boot waterproofing on every third boolit or so. I then do the tumble lube thing and let them dry for at least a week before use. The tumble lube works on the boolit bearing surface, so there's no need to worry about the lube grooves.

I agree with MtGun44, all my 9mm's do better using .357" boolits.

[Cherokee]

I have found for my 9mm's .356 works great & no leading. Tried larger but could not tell a difference on target so stayed with .356.

[Captain_Howdy]

My main concern was the concentricity between the bullet ogive and the bearing surface of the driving bands inducing a wobble in the boolit as it left the barrel and rotates on its axis. Something which I believe can be induced by the Lee push through die as it has no centering mechanism except on the surface area of the driving bands themselves...I think a few folks got it...my fault I didn't make myself more clear I suppose. Yes I understand the bullet will center as it enters the bore but if the ogive is not concentric with the bearing surface it will still wobble...anyways...I digress.

[harvester]

Shoot them and you know if any wobble error effects accuracy.

[runfiverun]

not familiar with the lee push throughs but the star push throughs have a tapered section which allows things to center themselves.

[popper]

Think cast Cb tolerance. What is the dimensional tolerance of the ogive? You could swage them to get better tolerance(accurizer tool). 2nd, base quality and squareness is more important. 3rd perfect bullets do 'wobble' when leaving the bbl, perfect gyro action doesn't exist. Try Recluse lube, not as messy. Yes, the 2nd lubing gets lube on the drive bands, where it is needed. You can wipe the nose lube off with a rag and mineral spirits, but I don't bother. Just have fun shooting them.

[looseprojectile]

I am also one of those that is not a great fan of Lee Alox, but.
When I do use it I thin it about fifty percent with some kind of thinner that is compatible.
Try this, put a couple of hundred boolits in a vessel such as a pie pan.
Heat the boolits with a hair dryer or an industrial heat gun. With the boolits near two or three hundred degrees squirt on about a table spoon full of thinned Alox.
Swish them around till they are evenly coated. The heat drives the thinner off almost instantly.
Now listen up!
While they are still hot in the pan put in a glob of paste wax about the size of the last joint of your thumb maybe a little less. A ball about the size of a nickel. Roll the boolits around in the pan till the wax is evenly distributed. when cool [ten or fifteen minutes] they can be loaded.

If your boolits are not perfectly round when they drop from the mould you may have other issues. The nine mm is one of the most dificult cartridges to load for due to variations in alloy, hardness, powder type and and velocity. Wheel weights with a little tin should make good boolits if you water drop them. Taper crimping excessively will be a problem.
I run my TL boolits through the Lee sizers dry and naked, nose first, lube em once, wax em and have never had a problem with .357 and 44 magnum.

I was a Naval aviation structural mechanic and aviation ordnanceman half a century ago. Thank you for your service!!

Welcome to Cast Boolits! Don't get discouraged!





Life is good

[mdi]

I understand your question about sizing die vs bullet concentricity vs barrel axis, but I don't have a qualified answer. But my bullet sizing, both T/L and standard lube groove bullets, is done with Lee sizers. I believe yout theory/idea may be true, but at handgun velocity, distances, and accuracy requirements, I don't think perfect concentricity will be as important as other factors (powder charge consistancy, bullet weight consistancy, firearm condition, etc.). But I do try for perfection (but I ain't destroyed if I don't get it!), because I enjoy handloading, and trying.

Alox is usually just as messy as you are. I use alox occationally, but I don't tumble lube. I like to dip lube ala Ranch Dog's method http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Tips/Alox/ , and I don't get alox all over my bench. When I do tumble, I thin alox to the consistancy of 5-20 motor oil with mineral spirits and kept air moving around lubed bullets (stood the bullets on the base and used a small fan), and they dried quickly with no stickieness. BTW, the lube grooves/bands don't need to be filled 'cause alox works best applied to the bearing surface of the bullet. Another excellent tumble lube is Recluse's 45-45-10 (recipe found in stickies). Works well in everything I've tried it on.

[Wayne Smith]

My main concern was the concentricity between the bullet ogive and the bearing surface of the driving bands inducing a wobble in the boolit as it left the barrel and rotates on its axis. Something which I believe can be induced by the Lee push through die as it has no centering mechanism except on the surface area of the driving bands themselves...I think a few folks got it...my fault I didn't make myself more clear I suppose. Yes I understand the bullet will center as it enters the bore but if the ogive is not concentric with the bearing surface it will still wobble...anyways...I digress.

How far do you plan to shoot this thing, anyway?? If you were loading for a rifle, perhaps. I doubt you will see a difference even at 25yds.

[mpmarty]

All my cast boolits get sized, by the barrel they're shot through. No leading and no problems. I use a 50/50 mix of JPW and LLA.

[Captain_Howdy]

Shoot them and you know if any wobble error effects accuracy.



yep I plan on doing that too! I always gets concerned about things...mayber too much so...

[Captain_Howdy]

I am also one of those that is not a great fan of Lee Alox, but.
When I do use it I thin it about fifty percent with some kind of thinner that is compatible.
Try this, put a couple of hundred boolits in a vessel such as a pie pan.
Heat the boolits with a hair dryer or an industrial heat gun. With the boolits near two or three hundred degrees squirt on about a table spoon full of thinned Alox.
Swish them around till they are evenly coated. The heat drives the thinner off almost instantly.
Now listen up!
While they are still hot in the pan put in a glob of paste wax about the size of the last joint of your thumb maybe a little less. A ball about the size of a nickel. Roll the boolits around in the pan till the wax is evenly distributed. when cool [ten or fifteen minutes] they can be loaded.

If your boolits are not perfectly round when they drop from the mould you may have other issues. The nine mm is one of the most dificult cartridges to load for due to variations in alloy, hardness, powder type and and velocity. Wheel weights with a little tin should make good boolits if you water drop them. Taper crimping excessively will be a problem.
I run my TL boolits through the Lee sizers dry and naked, nose first, lube em once, wax em and have never had a problem with .357 and 44 magnum.

I was a Naval aviation structural mechanic and aviation ordnanceman half a century ago. Thank you for your service!!

Welcome to Cast Boolits! Don't get discouraged!





Life is good

run them through the sizers dry you say? would I be able to do the same with a boolit fron a MP mold?

Thank you Sir for your service! I was giving my history so as to be an excuse as to why I am picky and why I question things!!!

[Captain_Howdy]

How far do you plan to shoot this thing, anyway?? If you were loading for a rifle, perhaps. I doubt you will see a difference even at 25yds.

yea...you're prolly right

[looseprojectile]

Try it and see. Works for any boolit for me.
Picky? I can't stand to watch someone else try and fail at some task that is easy for me.

I think I gave you my history to give some credence to my method.
I was always able to make 20 mm cannons and 50 cal. Brownings run perfectly when no one else could.


Life is good

[MikeS]

When using ANY tumble lube the thing it to use very little actual lube. Most people that complain that it's messy are using WAY too much! After you've tumble lubed them, and spread them out on wax paper to dry you should just barely see a difference between them and unlubed boolits. The reason Lee says to lube them again is that LLA (and most tumble lubes) are designed to leave a very thin coating on the driving bands of the boolit. generally if I'm using a tumble lube boolit I'll go ahead and do the lube/size/lube method. If I'm sizing boolits that have lube grooves, and are going to be lubed with a conventional lube (pan lubed) I'll give the boolits a quick coating of case lube (lanolin & alcohol) before sizing (and let it dry before sizing).

[Captain_Howdy]

Try it and see. Works for any boolit for me.
Picky? I can't stand to watch someone else try and fail at some task that is easy for me.

I think I gave you my history to give some credence to my method.
I was always able to make 20 mm cannons and 50 cal. Brownings run perfectly when no one else could.


Life is good

very cool!

My cast boolits for my 45acp run great. My 9mm results haven't been so good. I loaded 50 rounds today after work and went to the range with them. Accuracy was mediocre at best. Function was fine. I was running 3.9 grains of w231 with the 124 grain bullet. I was getting a fair amount of leading and lots of smoke from the alox burning off during firing. I could actually smell the stuff. I did change my lube method by thinning it according to someones recipe here on these forums. Maybe was a bad idea. Gonna load another 50 after the game tomorrow with the lube applied as is from the bottle like I did with the 45acp stuff and see if it changes. Maybe gonna try 4 grains of powder as well. The gun feels like it is running kinda soft and slow. We shall see...I'll get it right. I have plenty of brass and lead!

Edit: Oh yea, I didn't notice any indications of destabilization or any kind of tumbling effect so I am guessing maybe I was being silly about concentricity.

[popper]

Size a case, seat a CB, no primer or powder, pull it and check size to make sure it is still the proper size. LLA smokes, Recluse smokes. Use as little as you can.

[David2011]

Possibly overthinking. The easy test is to shoot paper at your maximum realistic expected range.

Are the holes round? If yes, the boolits are stable. If not, they're keyholing and the reason should be determined. Could be eccentricity, velocity or a number of other reasons.

Are the holes close enough to each other to satisfy you for the intended use? If yes, you're good.

Every lube I've tried smokes; some more than others. Shooting action pistol games they can cause a smokescreen that obscures targets- bad for scores. Some forum participants explained to me that my only concerns should be no leading and a clean bore. That theory works well enough for single shot guns but not so much for rapid fire. Your smoke question is legit but there's no great answer, even with sizer applied lubes.

A powder that burns completely in the bore before the boolit leaves will help. I've found that the closer I get to a maximum load for a given powder the cleaner it burns. That doesn't necessarily relate to a full house load for the cartridge. For example, powder X at a maximum recommended load may yield only 930 fps while powder Y may make the same velocity 1.5 grains below the recommended max. I would expect powder X to burn more cleanly. OTOH, powder X MAY run hotter, causing the lube to smoke more. It's a vicious cycle. I've fought this for years shooting .40 S&W in IPSC and Steel Plate matches. Some lubes were terrible. The rest were only bad for how much smoke they produced. A powder and lube combination that was inconsequential for its smoke on Saturday morning with the sun behind me was intolerable on Tuesday evening where a floodlight hit the smoke just in front of the muzzle. When I went to another range and shot into the sun on Saturday morning that was almost as bad as the floodlight from above.

David