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View Full Version : .358 ar from .223 brass?? POSSIBLE??



mr.jake
09-13-2012, 02:16 PM
Why doesnt someone make this? would it be possible to trim down a .223 brass and expand it to take a 358 boolit? then make an ar upper for it? Brass would be pretty cheap, and you would have balistics similar to a rossi 92 in .357. This idea has probably been thought of but it just dawned on me after reading about the .300 black out. The reasons i would have the .358 over the .300 blackout are: not having to lube cases, i have lots of .358 molds, case life would probablly be longer than the .300 black formed cases and 9mm suppresors are cheaper. What do you guys think?

Moonie
09-13-2012, 02:18 PM
Well for one thing the shoulder diameter of a .223 is .354...

HORNET
09-13-2012, 02:28 PM
Didn't the Eastern Block countries have a 9x39 for suppressed use?

felix
09-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Yeah, a 9mm on steroids. Check these various 9mm cases out with the 223 cases. 38 Super? ... felix

frnkeore
09-13-2012, 04:15 PM
I don't think it will be as easy as your thinking. You'll have to keep the case length real close as that's how it will have to headspace and you'll have to neck turn because of the case taper. You'll also have very little case taper to help with the extraction that auto loaders need. Plus it sounds like a lot of work to me.

Frank

RU shooter
09-13-2012, 04:16 PM
A 6.8 case necked up would be interesting though.I believe theres already a 35 cal on the x39mm/ grendel case that will get you 35 rem vel.

nanuk
09-14-2012, 04:30 AM
I was wondering if the .223 case could sub for at the 357Max.

as long as it was trimmed right, and inserted so the extractor grabbed the groove, it SHOULD work


I did happen into some Max brass so won't need to pursue this with any great fervor but it is still something I'd like to know.

Tank56
09-14-2012, 10:07 AM
"would it be possible to trim down a .223 brass and expand it to take a 358 boolit?"
yes, but as stated, case length would determine headspace. If you want a .357 Maximum equal it would be better to modify Maximum brass and use a semi rimmed Max case.
I've been fiddling around with this Idea for a long time. I'd like to try the .358 gremlin (.358 bullet in a 7.62x39 Russian case) but have come to the conclusion that the .458 SOCOM necked down to .358 might be the way to go. I have also looked at necking down the .450 Bushmaster, and a shortened .444 Marlin with a rebated rim.
While any of the above are .35 Remington equals or better, none are really worth the extra expense and trouble involved.

Tank56
09-14-2012, 10:13 AM
There is a .338 Spectre wildcat that you may want to look at, basically a shortened .223 necked to .338.

hicard
09-14-2012, 11:37 AM
Check out the 358 Gremlin cartridge.

http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358Gremlin.html

runfiverun
09-14-2012, 05:13 PM
headspacing and feeding are the issues you have to overcome.
if you had a mag that would single feed from the center it would work great.
the gremlin would be the best bet and i would go with a 8mm or 338 anyway.
i tried to work a 250 gr 358 boolit in a cut off 204 case some time back and couldn't get a builder to say anyway it would work.
it would feed fine from a standard 223 mag, but not headspace very well because it lost all of it's taper and the case mouth was so thin.

badge176
09-14-2012, 08:35 PM
If it headspaced on the case mouth like the .45ACP or the .30 carbine, how bizzare would it really be? :???:

Artful
09-14-2012, 09:11 PM
9mm Win Mag reinvented ? .357 magnum for auto loaders.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/9mm%20Winchester%20Magnum.pdf

9mm Win Mag case length 1.160 - 1.170 max - (223 case is 1.76" (45mm)) - (357 maximum is Case length 1.605 in (40.8 mm))

So if you straightened out 223 to 9mm and trimed to 1.605 you'd have created 9mm Maximum, how it would feed and function is yet to be determined.

or just buy 9mm Win Mag brass from starline and live with it.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/9MM-Win-Mag-Brass/

and yes 9x39 is a russian military round used in suppressed rifles

http://wb.bob.fi/domains/flonne.org/temp/9x39_mm.png

back to the original questions

Why doesnt someone make this?
There are wildcats made off 223 but not in 35 caliber due to head space issues.
Would it be possible to trim down a .223 brass and expand it to take a 358 boolit?
Yes
Then make an ar upper for it?
Probably but you have to consider feeding from magazine up into the chamber.
Brass would be pretty cheap, and you would have balistics similar to a rossi 92 in .357.
Look up Jeff Coopers 9mm conversion of 223 brass for 1911's or Dillon 9x25 - Very Hot loadings
This idea has probably been thought of but it just dawned on me after reading about the .300 black out.
The reasons i would have the .358 over the .300 blackout are: not having to lube cases, i have lots of .358 molds, case life would probablly be longer than the .300 black formed cases and 9mm suppresors are cheaper.
What do you guys think?
You can use the 9mm Suppressor with 300 blackout subsonic loads - not so sure with your 9mm uber magnum

fcvan
09-15-2012, 01:49 AM
Ya, I always thought that taking the .223 out straight-walled and making a '35 carbine' would be cool. Or maybe call it .357 automag or something. I imagine the 300 AAC will be more popular so the idea may never get traction. Frank

greywuuf
09-15-2012, 02:09 AM
.338 spectre is made from ,10 mm MAGNUM, brass, uhm, there is a guy whose name escapes me (used to do business at ar15barrels.com)
That has a video of feeding a mag full of cut off .223 brass (inside expanded and inside neck reammed) loaded with 200 grain jacketed bullets through an AR (by hand with the charging handle)

I have a reamer and a barrel, was always going to put together an upper, but realized that I really hate that much brass forming. (Especially the reaming part...the expanding and forming was fine)

Also cartridges of the world has a .357 max based on the .223 brass...Just a rimless max...it made sense for something out another.....maybe it came out off Australia, and max brass was hard to get?

Something like that.


All that being said...I did make 5 pieces of MAGNUM brass and fire it in my black hawk....had to rig a make diff moon clip.....but it does work, just not worth the effort IMO.


homeland defense begins at home.

Tank56
09-15-2012, 04:42 AM
Greywuuf is correct, My mistake typing gets faster than the brain sometimes. The.338 Straight is the cartridge I was refering to in an earlier post when I refered to the .338 Spectre, sorry for any confusion.
I've heard of the rimless Max but for some reason never associated it with the AR, probably due to the thinness of the brass at the neck (hard to headspace). I still believe that a semi-rimmed design like the .30 Carbine, (except starting with .357 Max brass) would solve any difficulties with headspacing. However, this approach requires spinning each case and I don't like to put that much time and trouble into brass.

scb
09-15-2012, 10:48 AM
A 6.8 case necked up would be interesting though.

It was discussed here. Unfortunately it didn't go anywhere.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=90803 (about page 14 or 15)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1131098&postcount=555

There's another member that makes what he calls a 357 BFG - Herrett Short 1.625"

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/2794505494aa4b838.jpg

I've tried contacting him but he doesn't return e-mails.

BAGTIC
01-24-2013, 12:18 AM
It has been done. the .357 Rimless Magnum but to function through SA rifles the cartridge need to be kept to about 2.00 inches and the case needs to be kept very short about same as .357 Magnum but it runs at higher pressures. It will push a 180 gr. spitzer at about 2,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel, about the same as a 57 Maximum.

Idaho Sharpshooter
01-24-2013, 01:24 AM
I tried this about twenty years ago. It headspaces on the case mouth, like a 9mm. Trimming cases is absolutely critical. In the end, it proved problematic, and not worth the trouble. I piddled around with some strange case designs in the early to mid-nineties. Ask me about my 308 ZTSS sometime.

Rich

Got-R-Did
01-26-2013, 07:47 PM
How about just resurrecting the .351 S.L. and use a rimless case this time.
Got-R-Did.

Hamish
01-26-2013, 08:03 PM
If yous guys ask nicely, tommygirlMT might tell you about her 8x223 AR.

rockrat
01-26-2013, 09:20 PM
Tried it using 357 max brass and turning the rim to 223 specs. Problem was the rib in the front of the mag would shove the round towards the center of the mag and impede feeding. I think you could use 7.62 x 39 brass and use the front part of a 35rem reamer and just chamber deep enough to use the x39 brass. Cut off 35 rem dies for sizing and seating.

I would think 9mm mag brass would work the best.

MJR007
01-28-2013, 06:18 PM
I was going to rebarrel my 25wssm AR15 upper to a 358wssm but never did. I just sold it to geezer56.

mongoosesnipe
01-28-2013, 10:28 PM
i dont think it could be done with 223 brass there are 2 versions of the 338 whisper one is off the 7mm br round and the other is a straight walled 221/ or cut down 223 case i am pretty sure 338 is about the biggest you can fit into a 223 case you could do it with a 6.8 case which can accommodate up to a 10mm slug or use 10mm mag brass which shared head dimensions with the 6.8

Artful
01-29-2013, 12:03 AM
i dont think it could be done with 223 brass there are 2 versions of the 338 whisper one is off the 7mm br round and the other is a straight walled 221/ or cut down 223 case i am pretty sure 338 is about the biggest you can fit into a 223 case you could do it with a 6.8 case which can accommodate up to a 10mm slug or use 10mm mag brass which shared head dimensions with the 6.8

Don't tell Winchester or Jeff Cooper (his was call 9mm super cooper for use in south american carry)
http://www.ppsh41.com/9x23Win.jpg

or if you want to stretch it out
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/smallarms_repair/9mmmag001.jpg
9x19mm para, 9mm on shortened 223 wildcat, and .223 rem

mongoosesnipe
01-29-2013, 02:16 AM
i stand corrected

Don't tell Winchester or Jeff Cooper (his was call 9mm super cooper for use in south american carry)
http://www.ppsh41.com/9x23Win.jpg

or if you want to stretch it out
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/smallarms_repair/9mmmag001.jpg
9x19mm para, 9mm on shortened 223 wildcat, and .223 rem

Artful
01-29-2013, 08:50 PM
mongoosesnipe, don't feel bad - I've been watching this stuff for almost half a century.
Wildcat rounds and factory trial stuff that will make your head spin - biggest issue is getting any self feeder to feed 'em.
Lots of good rounds didn't catch on - just look at the Long Road from 300 Whisper to 300 Blackout.

mongoosesnipe
01-29-2013, 10:26 PM
it would appear to need inside neck reaming that's why i dismissed it as not practical

I am amazed at how fast the blackout has caught on considering how long the whisper and its knock offs have been around it is an impressive piece of marketing for a cartridge that isn't all that practice out side of sub sonic suppressed applications i have had a whisper ar for about 10 years its neat but not the wonder cartridge that people make it out to be

leadman
01-29-2013, 10:54 PM
I think Mike Bellm has a 357 max/300 whisper chambering for the T/Cs. One of the big named shooters also used the max in a 300w barrel that had been cut for the rim. Just a matter of changing the extractor to go from one to the other.

Artful
01-29-2013, 11:45 PM
it would appear to need inside neck reaming that's why i dismissed it as not practical

I am amazed at how fast the blackout has caught on considering how long the whisper and its knock offs have been around it is an impressive piece of marketing for a cartridge that isn't all that practice out side of sub sonic suppressed applications i have had a whisper ar for about 10 years its neat but not the wonder cartridge that people make it out to be

Timing is everything - currently there is a surge of interest in suppressed guns and cartridges for cast boolit shooting seems to be making more headway - not as much Magnumitis as in my youth, Plus of course AR / AK / black rifle fever started by the Administration. I always think of my 300 Fireball as a self-loading 30-30. And it is neat with subsonic loads, but then again I'm partial to quiet guns these days. I would at some point like to try a 9x39 in a bolt action with a can.

mongoosesnipe
02-06-2013, 01:44 AM
I did some playing around and it took 4 different dies working up incrementally and 6 steps but I opened the neck of a 223 to 9mm and straight walled the case the bullet can be seated in the old neck which is thinner so no inside reaming required if this market ever calms down I might take this project further but for now i give you 9x45mm aka "9 thrillameter"
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff473/mongoosesnipe/IMAG1283_zpsa2a6f206.jpghttp://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff473/mongoosesnipe/IMAG1284_zps95e7ac2f.jpg

Artful
02-06-2013, 08:56 AM
I like it. Did you have to anneal it between steps?

mongoosesnipe
02-06-2013, 01:20 PM
i tried annealing but it didn't seem to help with splinting i actually had to go up to .375 then back down to 9mm to straighten out the body the first one i did was unannealed and it worked then it split a few unannealed then a few annealed then back to unannealed i am sure it would have went smoother with virgin brass

Artful
02-06-2013, 08:41 PM
Wonder if after the panic we can get some 223 basic cases (un-necked) to play with - this could be an real interesting project.

mongoosesnipe
02-07-2013, 01:42 AM
I like the idea of it as it would use a standard ar mag the case holds 30 gr of varget with a 147gr 9mm HP on top of it which is pretty decent i didnt try ant other powders but that gives it a 20% gain in powder capacity over the 223 could have pretty good potential with h110

xacex
02-07-2013, 04:50 AM
For the AR platform to shoot it would just require reaming out a 9mm barrel, and drilling a gas hole. I think that you would have extraction problems with so much surface area against the chamber unless you used a larger than normal gas port to get the bolt to yank it out. but it is also possible that there would be no issues due to the powder charge you would be using. It looks like the 450 Bushmaster, but sized down. 357 Bushmaster? I don't want to give them any ideas....

mongoosesnipe
02-07-2013, 11:43 AM
I said 9 thrillmeter I wouldn't dare curse it by associating it with the shrub master name...also 9mm is a tapered case it is larger at the base than this cartridge .391 vs .377 so you would need to start with an I unchambered 9mm barrel

357Mag
02-07-2013, 01:55 PM
Mr. Jake -

Howdy !

Even were it a straight-walled case...
.378" base diam - .358" bullet diam = .020". Divide by 2 = .010" thick case ( "neck" ) walls.,
That would be insufficiently robust of a case, for use in an "AR" app.

Another potential "parent " case might be had, but would bring w/ it a likely one-off rim diam.

Take a look @ .351 Win self-loading, for example.

A .30 Rem or .32 Rem case could be made to work, after necking-up to .358" cal.... and there's already an AR bolt/bolt face
for that case' rim diam.

A .357 AutoMag would require a .308 bolt face... amongst other considerations for it to be a viable AR choicee.


With regards,
357Mag

mongoosesnipe
02-07-2013, 03:48 PM
The 6.8 case (30 rem) would be the next best bet but then mag selection drops off but powder charge would go up and the case could have a little tapper

GARD72977
02-07-2013, 05:07 PM
I think Mike Bellm has a 357 max/300 whisper chambering for the T/Cs. One of the big named shooters also used the max in a 300w barrel that had been cut for the rim. Just a matter of changing the extractor to go from one to the other.

Im not a big name shooter but I have a Virgin Valley 300/221 rimmed that they built for me around 2000. It takes a lot of work to form the cartridge but I really like it. I was shooting 22cal handgun Sil back then and wanted to try the big bore. I ended up divorced and moved before the bbl was finished. It has hit lots of cans but no steel.

xacex
02-09-2013, 02:12 AM
This may be of interest for a project like this. Whatever you call it....

9mm Grease Gun /AR-9 - Barrel Blanks - $89 each
http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=34753.0

AR15barrels
04-28-2013, 05:40 AM
I did some playing around and it took 4 different dies working up incrementally and 6 steps but I opened the neck of a 223 to 9mm and straight walled the case the bullet can be seated in the old neck which is thinner so no inside reaming required if this market ever calms down I might take this project further but for now i give you 9x45mm aka "9 thrillameter"
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff473/mongoosesnipe/IMAG1283_zpsa2a6f206.jpghttp://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff473/mongoosesnipe/IMAG1284_zps95e7ac2f.jpg

I have a whole box of dummies that look just like that.
Did you try stacking them in an AR magazine to see what happens?

AR15barrels
04-28-2013, 05:42 AM
Wonder if after the panic we can get some 223 basic cases (un-necked) to play with - this could be an real interesting project.

I bought the last 700 pieces of un-folded 223 blank cases that Hitech ammo had in 2003 or 2004 when I was playing with the 357 rimless mag project.
It is actually 2" long basic 223 brass.
Very nice for making all sorts of cases foe TC Contenders, but mostly too long for AR projects.

nanuk
04-30-2013, 10:24 PM
and yes 9x39 is a russian military round used in suppressed rifles

http://wb.bob.fi/domains/flonne.org/temp/9x39_mm.png


I was designing something very similar to rechamber my IMI Timberwolf Pump 357Mag to....

I was thinking of doing something in a H&RHandi, but now, I think I'd use a readily available rimmed cartridge.

x39 is hard to get up here, in brass.

nanuk
04-30-2013, 10:27 PM
I think you could use 7.62 x 39 brass and use the front part of a 35rem reamer and just chamber deep enough to use the x39 brass. Cut off 35 rem dies for sizing and seating.


exactly what I planned for my IMI TW.

Grapeshot
05-01-2013, 08:29 PM
Ya, I always thought that taking the .223 out straight-walled and making a '35 carbine' would be cool. Or maybe call it .357 automag or something. I imagine the 300 AAC will be more popular so the idea may never get traction. Frank

Years ago one of my friends was playing with an old Winchester 351 Self Loader and was experimenting with .223 Rem Brass blown out and trimmed to length to feed this old gun.

lmfd20
06-18-2013, 10:36 AM
There is a 6.8 necked up to 357. A guy named MGP on 68forums has barrels and dies for sale. Look up 358MGP.