Something wrong!

[44man]

I told you fellas I was trying a new alloy by adding 1# of stereo type to 19# of WW's. It makes beautiful boolits, very easy to cast with.
It is not any harder then straight WW metal and they are the same diameter.
BUT!
They don't shoot! :veryconfu It is driving me crazy. I shot my BFR 45-70 at 100 yards and groups with the alloy run 2" to 3" every time.
Using just WW metal I keep shots into 1".
I can't catch any because my trap is full so I run into other boolits, it needs dumped and fluffed up. It is so heavy I can't dump it myself.
Maybe it is now too rich in tin, stereo is 7%.
I get zero leading in the gun, not a speck but something happens.
I often say to test alloys but just 1# to 19# and to see such a difference is a little too crazy. I shot near 50 of each and it was the same every time.

[felix]

Oh! Can you say "outa' balance"? Easily noticed using the little ones, like 22s. 15,000 rounds in the bench gun has proven that to me without doubt. Very few lots, say no more than 5 percent, have BR quality written all over them. ... felix

[newton]

Yea, I was thinking out of balance also. I was thinking that maybe(I am no metallurgist) the tin is 'congregating' to one side or the other in the boolit. Anyway you could test them for out of balance?

[Plinkster]

How would they get out of balance from a 5% alloy change? I don't doubt what you say I'm just curious about the mechanics of it. I'm about to try my hand at the little ones myself so getting a handle on the "why's" could save some head scratching down the road.

[dodgyrog]

If theboolits are harder and the load is small, there is a possibility the boolits are not upsetting (obturating) enough in the rifling. You could try a faster powder or more of the same powder.

[newton]

How would they get out of balance from a 5% alloy change? I don't doubt what you say I'm just curious about the mechanics of it. I'm about to try my hand at the little ones myself so getting a handle on the "why's" could save some head scratching down the road.

Trust me, this is just the first thought that came to my head and then I read that felix mentioned it(even if its not the same thing I'm talking about).

I think that personally the best way to test the theory is to see how it shoots up close and then also far away. From what I understand(which is little), unbalance shows its ugly head the further away you get. Most of the time it is also a lot more unpredictable(fliers) than just plain group size getting larger.

[44man]

If theboolits are harder and the load is small, there is a possibility the boolits are not upsetting (obturating) enough in the rifling. You could try a faster powder or more of the same powder.
Boolits are not harder and are .459". Same as WW's. I just checked a bunch and they run 17 to 18 BHN. My WW boolits run 18 to 19 BHN. My best WW boolits will be 22 BHN and they shoot best, had 3/4" at 100 many times.
Out of balance??? No way to test.
Weights are consistent.
Stereo lead is 15% antimony but the addition of 1# is nothing. Yet they are a little softer.
Throats are .4592" and groove is .458"
Now explain how the addition of stereo lead will make a boolit a BHN point softer????
Boolits are gas checked too.
I am at a loss here.

[44man]

Sounds crazy but can the boolits be too "slippery?"

[MBTcustom]

That's some hard WW alloy you got there.

[bumpo628]

I told you fellas I was trying a new alloy by adding 1# of stereo type to 19# of WW's.

With that mix, you're adding about 0.3% tin and 0.7% antimony to the composition of your existing alloy. That is assuming that the stereotype is not depleted.

[1Shirt]

It will be interesting to see IF there is an answer to this! Once in awhile, something happens that just can't be explained, and you have to move on.
1Shirt!

[44man]

With that mix, you're adding about 0.3% tin and 0.7% antimony to the composition of your existing alloy. That is assuming that the stereotype is not depleted.
Sounds right. But the casting ease and boolit perfection shows something is at work. The cold metal in the pot is whiter, if that is a good word, not the dull color, and it is cleaner looking, less dross too. It makes amazing boolts but what is going on in the barrel?

[Wayne Smith]

How long did they sit before you shot them? Adding Antimony requires a little time for them to come to full hardness. That's the only variable I can think of you haven't mentioned.

[nanuk]

here is my SWAG

as you add stereotype, you dilute the arsenic, and with BHN so high, I am going to assume you water drop.... so the quenching has less effect due to less arsenic....

just reaching here....

[44man]

How long did they sit before you shot them? Adding Antimony requires a little time for them to come to full hardness. That's the only variable I can think of you haven't mentioned.
Over two weeks before loading.

[44man]

here is my SWAG

as you add stereotype, you dilute the arsenic, and with BHN so high, I am going to assume you water drop.... so the quenching has less effect due to less arsenic....

just reaching here....
Maybe, I don't know if there is any arsenic in the type. But the amount is so low that I added it is screwy.

[felix]

Remember, the alloy changes, or the initiation of such, begins during the slush stage. And, we can assume the time of slush is proportional to the amount of possible alloy change, which is either good or bad. So, compare slush stage times with good shooting boolits versus bad shooting boolits. ... felix

[felix]

Slush time is the only reliable indicator, not the alloy constituents themselves. Arsenic or not, no slush time means absolutely no changes between a fluid state and solid state. ... felix

[Eutectic]

I think I tend to agree with Felix here. I have a lot of metallurgical background and believe me, lead alloys 'march' to the beat of their own drum. Sometimes small changes make much bigger changes in the solidification process. Add water drop hardening can also make very similar alloys react in a non linear way.

Bottom line in layman terms..... Some guns just don't like a particular alloy! I have had alloys just where I want them bhn wise and then not shoot in several guns. I tweak the alloy some (doesn't take a lot most times) or if a stubborn one use it as a blending agent (small percentages)

I don't like working with anything harder than linotype for a blending component.

It would be nice to know the exact elements (and %) present in your stereotype as well...

Things in there could make the the bhn correct and the alloy wrong for boolits..

Eutectic

[popper]

That is 95/4/1 Pb/Sb/Sn, not high tin. Plenty of As for hardening. Now if you made a mistake and added 1# tin, you get pretty CBs, whiter alloy and lousy shooting CBs. The Sb/As and Sn will give the hardness, but you will have 10% tin. Been there, done that, just not quite as bad.

[Plinkster]

I'm not sure that it's wrong for boolits per say, 2-3" at a 100yds from my bench and I'd start to wonder rather quickly where I could source more of this Merlin's metal! But for someone with the skill to shoot better is obviously is a detriment. I would like to see the results at longer ranges yet, that could shed some light. If it is an out of balance boolit the groups should be growing exponentially at longer range yes? Huh...maybe littering the range with the gas checks? I really kinda like these head scratchers when they happen to someone else's gun. Make em a fun game rather that a smiting for forgetting an offering to say the god of velocity or wind drift perhaps. I'll keep thunkin on this one for sure.

[Texantothecore]

I assume you are water cooling your cast boolits. Try air cooling a batch and see what happens.

BHN 18-19 is not at all like normal WW.

[44man]

I think I tend to agree with Felix here. I have a lot of metallurgical background and believe me, lead alloys 'march' to the beat of their own drum. Sometimes small changes make much bigger changes in the solidification process. Add water drop hardening can also make very similar alloys react in a non linear way.

Bottom line in layman terms..... Some guns just don't like a particular alloy! I have had alloys just where I want them bhn wise and then not shoot in several guns. I tweak the alloy some (doesn't take a lot most times) or if a stubborn one use it as a blending agent (small percentages)

I don't like working with anything harder than linotype for a blending component.

It would be nice to know the exact elements (and %) present in your stereotype as well...

Things in there could make the the bhn correct and the alloy wrong for boolits..

Eutectic
According to what I found for the ingot, it is 7% tin, 15% antimony and 78% lead.
I just did a check on several air cooled ingots that are 6 months old. They are a very consistent 29 BHN. Why they made my WW metal softer is a mystery.

[9.3X62AL]

That's some hard WW alloy you got there.

Yes, sir. And if I shot 2"-3" groups at 100 yards with ANY of my revolvers, I would be one happy individual. Ecstatic, actually. There are some right fine shooters that hang out here, for darn sure.

[geargnasher]

It's the "D" word. Dynamic. The crystalline structure of alloys within the range of "boolit metal" has a broad identity affected by very slight changes in composition, and also changes with time. When splitting hairs, this is more obvious. Wait another couple of weeks and try again. If no improvement, add two-three pounds of pure lead to the 20-lb batch and recast them.

Gear

[44man]

It's the "D" word. Dynamic. The crystalline structure of alloys within the range of "boolit metal" has a broad identity affected by very slight changes in composition, and also changes with time. When splitting hairs, this is more obvious. Wait another couple of weeks and try again. If no improvement, add two-three pounds of pure lead to the 20-lb batch and recast them.

Gear
I truly believe it. Never have I had such a huge change with nothing.
I will make some of my other alloy in the mean time.
I might try stereo lead by itself too.

[MBTcustom]

Remember, the alloy changes, or the initiation of such, begins during the slush stage. And, we can assume the time of slush is proportional to the amount of possible alloy change, which is either good or bad. So, compare slush stage times with good shooting boolits versus bad shooting boolits.
Felix is speaking gospel here. This is the truth.
Observe this thread that I started last year. Same problem.
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=138951

[44man]

Felix is speaking gospel here. This is the truth.
Observe this thread that I started last year. Same problem.
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=138951
Still not right for what I have. When I flux I get less then half a teaspoon of dirt. The melt is super clean and even when I shut the pot off, it stays clean.
The last time I heated the pot I wondered why I fluxed at all, just habit.
Sprues solidify exactly like my other alloys, no difference in time at all. My casting has not changed.
My ladle stays clean, I never ever had what you showed.

[popper]

7% tin, 15% antimony and 78% lead mixed with COWW (96/3/.5) still gives ~ 95/4/1. I assume no zinc. My guess, the way they cooled gave you a high Sb CBs ( high bhn is evidence), SB tends to 'clump' like Sn: makes the CBs weaker and unbalanced. Try adding sulfur (or shot) to a small amount of the alloy to make it stronger or HT some to see if that locks the 1% Sn into the SB, reducing the 'free' SB.

[44man]

I always wanted one of those Juenke machines to check out of balance until I heard they don't work on lead boolits.
I made up some to test in the .500. There is no indication on the surface of migration.
How great if we could spin some up and measure but it is not in the cards.
We still don't know what a boolit does if just too slippery in the bore either. I might add some antimony to what is left.

[44man]

I have a few 45-70 loads left of each and will set up the chrono to see if there is a difference.

[popper]

I might add some antimony to what is left. If the alloy is what yo say, you are already high in antimony, why add more? If ~16% Sn is rapidly cooled, a peritectic vs eutectic alloy is obtained which is grain refined and not 'chunky' with columns of Sb & Sn that could cause imbalance. Another valid reason to WD or HT.

[bruce381]

I'm just a puppy here but could there be a harder or softer "skin"? Kinda like a surface metal heat treat that only goes a little way down to base metal? And or like you said maybe a smoother or slipprier surface with diferent Coeffent of friction? But still would 1% alloy change make a bih enough deal does not normal alloy vary that much over time for most casters?

The water drop and time to load maybe the varible.

[lwknight]

I think that a little more tin might solve the problem. I re-read your first post and you did not say if you COWW or SOWW so I presumed that its COWW and calculate about .8 to 1.0 percent tin with around 3.5% antimony.

Antimony is a very poor heat conductor and it might be possible that the cores cool just slow enough that the antimony crystals are pulling some still liquid tin from the center causing a void or maybe even just micro fissures.

That's why I think a little more tin like 0.5% just might stop the process. Its a wild theory but when things make you go " hmmm" don't discount anything even if its a long shot.

[44man]

I only have 10# of this stuff left so I can divide it up and try.
I just weighed a bunch of them, they are lubed too. I get a spread of 4/10 grain for a 325 gr lubed boolit, just over, none under. So I get 325 to 325.4 Grains.

[popper]

bruce381 - yup, Sb will 'migrate' to the surface when cooling, making the higher BHN reading. That makes the 'skin' hard but weak and may lead to stripping. I'm shooting 40, 30-30, 308 with no more than 2.5% Sb with fine results. Actually cut the Sn out of my alloy, they still fill out fine, ~ 10 bad to 350 good in 40SW and ~30 of 50 in 10 ring, rest in 9, just below the top group @ 7 yds and I'm not that good a shot. Quality with high antimony varies greatly with cooling rate, casting cadence.

[44man]

You guys are better at math then I am. Work out percentages for me.
My most accurate boolits are made with 20# of WW's, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony.
This was per Bill Ferguson.
It is a pain to make so I use WW's mostly that is almost as good.
Sounds strange with revolvers but I can tell a difference with not only alloy but primers, brass and lubes too. Alloy is the hardest problem.

[lwknight]

91.91% Lead 5.71% Antimony 2.38% Tin
More or less depending on exact WW composition
You are less than the 3 to 1 sb to sn ratio which is good.
Your other alloy had about 4 to 1 ratio and I believe that's why you had a problem.
Something about 3 to 1 ratio is just magical. The 2/6/92 hardball was no accident.

[44man]

91.91% Lead 5.71% Antimony 2.38% Tin
More or less depending on exact WW composition
You are less than the 3 to 1 sb to sn ratio which is good.
Your other alloy had about 4 to 1 ratio and I believe that's why you had a problem.
Something about 3 to 1 ratio is just magical. The 2/6/92 hardball was no accident.
Thank you. I get round eyed with math. :veryconfu

[MikeS]

I truly believe it. Never have I had such a huge change with nothing.
I will make some of my other alloy in the mean time.
I might try stereo lead by itself too.

Did you by any chance buy the stereotype from an eBay seller located in Morristown TN? If so, the plates while cast like stereotype actually tested out to being 'regular' linotype. I don't know if this is from the stereotype being depleted, or if the plates were cast with linotype.

[44man]

Did you by any chance buy the stereotype from an eBay seller located in Morristown TN? If so, the plates while cast like stereotype actually tested out to being 'regular' linotype. I don't know if this is from the stereotype being depleted, or if the plates were cast with linotype.
No, this was a 75# ingot marked from the foundry. I had to suspend it into my pot with my deer pulley system.
I understand it was used for blank filler and spacers for type.

[popper]

EM pics of Sb/Sn, ~ 4:1 - 6:1 Sb/Sn, the big flakes are air cooled flakes of SbSn, small ones are quenched, same alloy. Small flakes are better, size of flakes is very cooling rate dependant. This actually happens in our Pb/Sb/Sn alloys.

[44man]

Could that be why I like water dropped for accuracy?

[popper]

HT is even more consistent. Add S and/or As, drop into ice water and get really tough BCs. From what I can find, it's better than trying to add Cu.

[popper]

This is getting more interesting. I posted in another thread a problem with 2 batches of the same alloy(HT in oven). Everything was the same as best I could control, but after 2 wks, 1st batch grew in diam. 2nd batch will be measured daily to see if the grow, haven't yet. Growth is a crystalline structure change, which changes strength, question is when it occurs. If there is no growth in this batch, then the alloy mix is critical, I use rotometals alloy, but I don't weigh by the oz. If they do grow, the time line may be important as to when to size, load, shoot. Trying to get Thermo-Calc to work, should give me a phase diagram so I can see if I'm at a critical point in my alloy, which is close to COWW/Pb. Anybody have Matlab/thermocalc toolkit that can give answers? Why am I interested - consistent program of casting and loading for consistent results.

[44man]

Can't get any nuttier! :veryconfu
I still think alloy is why I can shoot some super small groups one time but a new batch of boolits will not do it.
Oven hardening is best but I hate the job.
I look at my pile of ingots and wonder what the heck is in there! :bigsmyl2:

[lwknight]

Maybe you got old days WWs and have more antimony than you are counting on?

[.22-10-45]

Hello, 44man..you are a man after my own heart! I too use Steriotype alloy..diluted with soft lead though. This hard lead business is funny..and to tell the truth..I really never cared for..or needed the hard stuff. I use this alloy only in a .22 Hornet & Ruger No.1 .222 Rem.
Both rifles have 1-14" twist. I made up sample batches using straight Steriotype metal...no matter how much I increased charge..no leading..but no accuracy either! Now the Hornet will handle 55gr. bullets with 100yd. accuracy with the diluted stuff..didn't like the straight at all...But here's the kicker..little 49gr. 225415 from an early 70's era single cavity grouped well into 3/4"! Still can't figure out why?

[Recluse]

Antimony is a very poor heat conductor and it might be possible that the cores cool just slow enough that the antimony crystals are pulling some still liquid tin from the center causing a void or maybe even just micro fissures.




Oven hardening is best but I hate the job.

Adding to the "dynamics" theory Gear put forth, I'm wondering what is happening inside the boolit from the time you pour the alloy in to the time it actually solidifies thoroughly (enough) and is dumped in the water.

Is there somehow a disproportionate ratio of not-quite blended minerals in the alloy that are taking either the path of least resistance in the several seconds it's taking for the boolit to "harden up" before you dump it in the water?

Or, if the mold is not being held perfectly perpendicular, is gravity affecting the heavier minerals in the alloy, and thus--as Felix opines--causing a slightly out-of-balance boolit?

One easy test to eliminate either of these theories would be to cast your boolits, striving to keep the mold perfectly level and holding it that way, or even going as far as to set it on a flat surface then ladle-pouring.

Then, leave the mold two, three, four even five times as long as you normally would before cutting the sprue and dropping the boolits out. If gravity is affecting the heavier components in the alloy, at least they'll be pulled evenly to the base rather than to whichever side of the boolit is represented by a mold being tipped to one side or the other immediately after pouring the alloy.

Likewise, for the "past of least resistance" as it pertains to the alloy components, rather than "shock cooling" the boolits via water-dropping, maybe let them air cool and then heat-treat them via the oven to elevate your BHN.

Same tactic there would also go into play which would be keeping the boolits perfectly level on their base, and any component shift or migration during the heating would have gravity working for you in keeping the boolit in balance internally.

Just an absolute wild-buttcheeks theory. . .

:coffee:

[44man]

Might be the answer but I need to cast more. I put checks and lube on what I made.
Next batch will be oven hardened.

[Lloyd Smale]

just a thought but ww does alot better in increasing hardness then lineotype does. Could be that your now water dropping an alloy that isnt as apt to reacting to the tempering as the old one and you are actually getting softer bullets.

[44man]

just a thought but ww does alot better in increasing hardness then lineotype does. Could be that your now water dropping an alloy that isnt as apt to reacting to the tempering as the old one and you are actually getting softer bullets.
Been thinking as I cast today. My molds are large blocks of aircraft aluminum. They cast best at 500* preheat, first boolit perfect. I was wondering how hot the boolit and mold is when I open to drop. I have no way to measure at that time. Seems as if I should be around .500* when the sprue sets.
Boolits all sizzle when they hit water.
I cast at 750* pot. The mold does not lose heat.
I actually think my water dropped hit the water hotter then from the oven.
I made these this morning for the .44. All are perfect. All the same appearance, no shiny or frosted. Not a single reject from 1 to a full pot of lead. Stinking single cavity! [smilie=l:
My double cavity molds are twice the size.

[243winxb]

Adjust the powder charge for the new alloy.

[44man]

Adjust the powder charge for the new alloy.
I thought of that, I can go up some but not down. I am shooting my cast with less powder then I use with the 300 gr Hornady. It has always been the most accurate.
I just ran out of time to do more testing.
I used up what driveway sealer I had and hurt for 2 days. I need to go buy 9 more buckets to finish. Grass needs cut and I have to start picking up leaves.
Trying to cast and load in between is crazy.
Never retire, you will lose months in a blink! :veryconfu:veryconfu
8 days until archery and I can't pull the bow!

[popper]

WD @ 500 or oven HT @ 450, either is below the 'freeze' temp of the alloy. With WD, the core (this is a SWAG) >475, skin is <450 when you open the mould.
Never retire, you will lose months in a blink! and the honey-do list is written on a roll of TP that NEVER runs out.

[44man]

WD @ 500 or oven HT @ 450, either is below the 'freeze' temp of the alloy. With WD, the core (this is a SWAG) >475, skin is <450 when you open the mould. and the honey-do list is written on a roll of TP that NEVER runs out.
I heat soak my mold at 500* in my little oven. Anything less will not make a good boolit. When I dump a boolit, the next is fine so I just have to figure I am still hot enough.
I showed the picture because I am very consistent. But I have no real idea what the boolit temp is. The boolit should be the same temp as the mold. I can not see it being colder. It is, after all, inside the mold.
The surface will radiate heat long before the center. The boolit can not cool first.

[popper]

Only way the melt can freeze is to transfer heat to the mould. Only way to transfer heat is a temp difference. The point to my post was that I don't believe there is a difference in WD or oven HT, except for the time to get the CB out of the mould and into the water. If it hangs on one side, the other side cools faster, possible difference in hardness? one side to the other.

[44man]

Can't be more then a few degrees. Heat is not given up readily. Convection is faster.
One or two seconds will not make a 500* boolit go to 450* or less.
How about a chart showing different metals starting at one temp and seeing how much it cools per second in air at one temp?