Marlin 444P action difficult to close

[turmech]

I loaded up some RD 432-265 for my Marlin 444 and they seemed difficult to close the action completely. These were cast with a clone of Lyman # 2 alloy sized to 432 and gas checks seated with a lee sizer. I fired a few shots before I really noticed the lever was somewhat difficult to close. My few shots were all over the target at 50 yards.

I tested some of the reloads I had done in the past with jacketed and the gun preformed as before (both the action and the POI ). I ran them back through the sizer and loaded some dummy rounds with the cast bullets. They were still difficult to close the action. I loaded some dummies sized a 430 with better results but still some difficulty closing the action. To try to describe the action being difficult to close I mean it take small but noticeable extra amount of force to completely close.

Open to suggestion from any of the knowledgeable folks here?

[uscra112]

If it closes OK without a cartridge, then it's the cartridge's fault.

I'd first tell you to check your case length. Try chambering a sized but empty case. If you feel that resistance, and there's a hint of a crimp on the mouth, that's yer problem. It's a dangerous condition, so trim 'em all back to spec.

Other possibilities include overcrimping, which can cause a bulge just below the crimp.

Or maybe your boolit is seated too far out. Are you getting land marks on the boolit? That's generally held to be a good thing with boolits, but a bad thing with j-warts.

Phil

[Salmoneye]

Not familiar with that boolit profile, but it may be that the ogive is too fat for the short throat of the Marlins...

[turmech]

I suspect the nose profile is the culprit, but this is hard to believe as this is a bullet designed for the marlin and many have posted good results with them.

I will recheck the case length. I would guess it is right as I trim most all of my cases with the lee case length cutter set up, but I will definitely check. I will also load some with less of a crimp.

The OAL is 2.50 which is what it was designed to be. My jacketed loads are actually longer (2.54)

I think I can see a mark on some cast bullets being caused by my guess the throat. But they are faint and not consistent.

[6pt-sika]

Try seating the bullets a hair deeper in the case and see if they chamber okay .

I have a couple of the Lee Ranch Dog molds for the 432-265GC and I don't have that problem unless I don't seat them deep enough .

[6pt-sika]

Not familiar with that boolit profile, but it may be that the ogive is too fat for the short throat of the Marlins...

Being as ALL the Ranch Dog molds were designed for Marlin rifles I think it's safe to rule out the ogive being to fat !

[6pt-sika]

Bullet diameter could be a factor but SAAMI specs for the .444 Marlin permit a bullet up to .432" in diameter.

PB

Lately I've been using a .433" sizing die with my cast bullets for the 44 MAG and 444 all Marlin's of course and I've not had any problems with bullet diameter .

And thats one old Marlin 336-44 in 44 MAG and about two dozen old Marlin's in 444 .

In the past I've fired cast in a couple 444P's I had and I never had any feeding problems in either of them .

[turmech]

Try seating the bullets a hair deeper in the case and see if they chamber okay .

I have a couple of the Lee Ranch Dog molds for the 432-265GC and I don't have that problem unless I don't seat them deep enough .

are you saying to crimp below the crimp groove?

[turmech]

Just read some interesting info the marlin 444P has a shorter throat then the longer barrel marlin 444

[6pt-sika]

are you saying to crimp below the crimp groove?

If you are seating the bullet in the case seat it deeper then the crimp groove . Meaning seat if past the crimp groove . You will crimp above the groove and closer to the nose .

To me below the crimp groove would mean closer to the base .

[6pt-sika]

Just read some interesting info the marlin 444P has a shorter throat then the longer barrel marlin 444

When the drawings for this bullet were done Ranch Dog made chamber casts of a 444P and an older 444T .

[turmech]

are you saying to crimp below the crimp groove? Yea should of said above or seat it past the crimp groove.

I will try this but this bullets nose is already short and stubby my first though is if loaded this way it won't shoot accurate, but who knows.

Would anyone be interested in a sample of the bullet to see if it will chamber in there gun? Curious if it is my gun or the individual mold.

[turmech]

Just a update for anyone who offered suggestions to me.

My finding were the bullet was hitting the throat on my particular marlin 444P when seated in the crimp groove per the load data of the bullet (2.50 OAL). If I were to seat the bullet deeper (2.47 OAL) the round would camber as normal. The bullet was contacting the throat just ahead of the case mouth. I fully assume this may be non typical for the bullet as many report great results with it in the 44 and 444 marlins.

I did not want to seat the bullet this deeply (may not have mattered). I had Tom at Accurate Molds make me a custom mold. It is 432275 in his catalog. It is a modified versions of a bullet Glen Fryxell had made for his 444 marlin that is mentioned in one of his articles on the gun. Mine is slightly lighter than his (275 gr VS 300 gr). The bullet has the crimp groove in a location to allow the OAL to be 2.54 (which is the OAL for the factory jsp rounds). It has an undersized front drive band (same profile as the three jacketed bullets that I have loaded in the gun). The attached pic shows the bullet and targets from my initial tests.

[Salmoneye]

Glad you found a combination that worked in your gun...

Thanks for the update...

[Goatwhiskers]

Just noticed this thread. Plus 1 on what Salmoneye came up with. I had found in my Martini .357Max that the RD359175 needed to be seated at one depth due to the nose profile, while the RD359190 with its longer nose could be seated a little longer. Incidentally the longer boolit is accurate as hell, too, both GC and PP. GW

[bigted]

just read this myself and gotta send my findings along.

my marlin is the 444P as well and my latest trial was a lyman mould i purchased # 429650...casting a 325 grain semi wad cutter boolit that i had high hopes for. when i started i also found i couldnt get em to load in a short enough coal to either work thru the action nor chamber in the rifle...soooo...scratching me noggin i remembered that a lifetime ago i purchased some hornaday factory 265 grain with those lil rubber/plastic pointy tips on em and that the cases were shorter then normal ... so i began the dig/search for these cases and walla ...found em.

loaded a couple for dummys to see if they would work thru and chamber and yepper...did it.

these cases were/are 2.056 inch long instead of my normal 2.230 inch long. so i proceeded to load 10 with my greesers and when i loaded 43 grains of RL-7 with a cci 200 primer they acted just rite thru my rifle showing no signs of over-preassure in the neck or primer area. a pretty good load and now i gotta go try em for accuracy to see where they come in...no leading and the rifle cleans up in a snap.

[turmech]

I did recall reading the Hornady cases meant for the flex tip bullets where shorter than standard length cases. I always stayed away from there brass for that reason (not knowing that effect on load data). Your results are interesting and I never gave a thought of there application for longer nosed cast bullets meant for 44 mag.

[Tazman1602]

Termec out of curiousity did you crimp those bullets with a Lee factory crimp die? I use that for my lube groove version of that bullet and seat it to the groove and it works great.

It is my goto bullet in my 444's and shoots unbelievable groups for me. Just an idea since it's reported that the Lee FCD can actually swage the bullet undersized if it's not adjusted properly. Personally I've never had thatissue.

Art

[turmech]

Termec out of curiousity did you crimp those bullets with a Lee factory crimp die?

No just roll crimp with RCBS dies. I am 95% sure the RD bullet was hitting the throat right past the crimp groove on the nose profile.

[mebe007]

Im having the same issue with my. 444p and tge rd432265rf. They chamber fine at 2.485 but 2.5 is a no go. Hsvent fired any yet as i wanted to ask if it was safe. Only loaded 4 so far with 40gr of imr4198

[turmech]

I could not see any safety issues with seating deeper with the charge you are listing. The 40 grains is less than the data on the RD site and less than the data for 265 grain Hornady jacketed.

My main concern was with not crimping in the crimp groove the likely hood of the bullets being seated deeper in the mag tube under recoil. My jacket loads in the past will start to seat deeper occasionally even when crimped on jacketed bullets with crimp ring.

[mebe007]

my original plan was to work up to ranch dogs maximum going 40gr, 41gr, 42gr, 43gr, 44gr checking pressure signs and accuracy then to break down into smaller increments. just concerned about the depth thing.

[turmech]

I would guess they will shoot fine. I would not go to 44 gr due to seating deeper. I abandoned the bullet when I could not use the crimp groove, due to my previous experiances with recoil seating other bullets deeper in the mag tube.

[mebe007]

well i suppose i should load another dummy round in 44mag and see if they will chamber in my 1894p an if not maybe it should go down the road.

[mebe007]

the factory crimp die sure looks to leave a nice self made crimp groove
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

[turmech]

the factory crimp die sure looks to leave a nice self made crimp groove
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

I read that article too. That might be an option. I just whent another route and had Tom make the mold I posted about. Ii so far has worked exactly for what I wanted. I will say if anyone elese decieds to try it, I would have the meplat reduced slightly. The bullet feeds perfect but it could stand to load in the mag smoother.

[Lloyd Smale]

my 444p has a very short throat.
Just read some interesting info the marlin 444P has a shorter throat then the longer barrel marlin 444

[WyrTwister]

I do not have a .444 , but I have a Winny & a Marlin .30-30 ( and a Marlin .45-70 ) . There is enough difference in the chambers that a cast bullet seated to Max OAL for one will not chamber in the other .

Make a dummy round with the bullet only partially seated . Hand feed the round into the action and close the lever .

Now carefully eject the round . I will bet there are rifling marks on the nose of the bullet ? Measure the OAL & write it down .

You may wish to seat your bullets a little deeper ? Color the nose of the next dummy round with a magic marker , to make it easier to see marks on the nose of the bullet .

Repeat the test cambering and record your measurements and observations .

I usually continue until no rifling marks are observed on the nose of the bullet and go with that OAL .

Check with Lee to see if they have a FCD in .444 & if it is a collet style die ?

God bless
Wyr

[mebe007]

i have the lee collet 444 die. ill try as you suggest for oal.

[Marlin Junky]

I thought this was already discussed; nevertheless, the COL with RD's 265 is gonna be approx. 2.48" when loading for the Outfitter (444P).

The type of crimp isn't going to be an issue. I can leave the cases mouths flared at .455" and still chamber my 350 grain ammo as slick as snot even when sized to .433" and loaded in 2.226" long cases.

Just for the record, so far I've found .432" boolits to shoot a bit more accurately than .433" boolits even though .434" boolits will chamber. This when burning 4759... slower powders may produced different results under some conditions; however, so far my best groups (< 1MOA) have been shot with .432" boolits.

MJ

P.S. You might make it to 44 grains of 4198, but 40 with that boolit length (.752" including the GC) and proper COL (2.48") should be under 30K PSI. Now, the reason I say "might make it" is because I've adjusted the case volume in QL to match my observed case volume of my neck sized only Remington brass that's probably 10 years old; i.e, my actual case volume is 3 grains greater than the default in QL.

P.P.S. I just checked the situation with the default volumn in QL and you might have a problem getting 44 grains of 4198 into FL sized cases under RD's 265 seated to 2.48". Let us know if 44 grains fits... pressure should be still under 40K PSI while velocity should exceed 2100 fps from your short barrel.

[mebe007]

Thanks for that info. what would be a good trim to length in order to crimp in the crimp groove at the length of 2.48 which cycles well in my gun. or would it be better to use saami trim to length and use the factory crimp die?

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for that info. what would be a good trim to length in order to crimp in the crimp groove at the length of 2.48 which cycles well in my gun. or would it be better to use saami trim to length and use the factory crimp die?

Factory crimp die... period.

The most frustrating aspect of my 444 experience was adjusting case length to match crimp groove placement. Anybody wanna buy some 2.205" 444 cases? Just leave 'em long and use the Lee "Factory Crimp" die. If the Lee FCD doesn't work on a particular boolit... delete the mold from you list of 444 fodder.

MJ

BTW, since the 444 headspaces on the rim, if you neck size only, you'll probably never need to trim your brass after squaring the mouths (I'm assuming the exclusive use of sane, < 45K PSI loads). Oh yeah... and don't square the mouths until the cases have experienced a couple "full power" loads; i.e., the case heads are fitted to the chamber. Trimming after full fire-forming will eliminate short cases.

[mebe007]

Factory crimp die... period.

The most frustrating aspect of my 444 experience was adjusting case length to match crimp groove placement. Anybody wanna buy some 2.205" 444 cases? Just leave 'em long and use the Lee "Factory Crimp" die. If the Lee FCD doesn't work on a particular boolit... delete the mold from you list of 444 fodder.

MJ

BTW, since the 444 headspaces on the rim, if you neck size only, you'll probably never need to trim your brass after squaring the mouths (I'm assuming the exclusive use of sane, < 45K PSI loads). Oh yeah... and don't square the mouths until the cases have experienced a couple "full power" loads; i.e., the case heads are fitted to the chamber. Trimming after full fire-forming will eliminate short cases.

what dies are you using to neck size?

[Marlin Junky]

what dies are you using to neck size?

Lee because their FL die is a bit wider in base diameter than my RCBS FL die. The Lee die is adjusted so the top of the primer decaping spindle is 0.08" below flush with respect to its lock nut; and, the die body is backed off such that spent primers are barely pushed out of the fired cases. Set this way, the Lee FL die provides sufficient boolit tension in the neck area while not reducing the head diameter.

I shot some heavy hitters today (1900fps with a 345 grain boolit from the lil' carbine) and as usual, there was no case stretch; i.e., 2.215-2.216" long cases before shooting today and the same length after resizing tonight. If my alloy will hold out, I'm going for 2000 fps with this boolit through the Outfitter but I won't accept any working load that even starts to flatten standard rifle primers in a 336. I suspect my self imposed limit of 45K PSI will be reached at right around 1950 fps from the stubby barrel. A 22" Handi Rifle should reach 2000 fps without breaking a sweat while using the same ammo. Factoring in the negated COL limitation of a SS rifle, the velocity can be boosted somewhat given the proper boolit design to allow a COL of 2.8" or thereabouts. I'm thinking that if the trailing band on Lyman 439186 or RCBS 43-370-FN can be reduced enough with a .410 sizer in order to apply a GC, maybe the 444 Handi Rifle would make a cool lil' buffalo gun. :bigsmyl2:

MJ

[popper]

I use the hornady brass without any problem. Use the FCD, you can seat where ever and still crimp. You can even use the FCD with the case inserted from the top. Different trim length is a PITA, like oversizing flash hole.

[Marlin Junky]

I use the hornady brass without any problem. Use the FCD, you can seat where ever and still crimp. You can even use the FCD with the case inserted from the top. Different trim length is a PITA, like oversizing flash hole.

What's the length of new Hornady 444 brass? I heard when it first became available, it was shorter than SAAMI length to compensate for the longer out-of-case length of the pointy rubber tipped bullets.

MJ

[mebe007]

What's the length of new Hornady 444 brass? I heard when it first became available, it was shorter than SAAMI length to compensate for the longer out-of-case length of the pointy rubber tipped bullets.

MJ

this is true of hornady factory loaded lever evolution ammo. the superformance stuff and component brass is standard saami length

[Marlin Junky]

I'd kinda like to try the Hornady brass but my Remington brass is awfully good.

Which brand holds more powder? I can easily get 46-47 grains of AA2200 behind a .97" long boolit, assembled in rounds that smoothly cycle through the 336's action (2.577" COL). My Remington brass weighs about 190 (I'll double check that, it could be more) grains but I've had this lot of brass for years and I don't know how it compares to more recent lots.

MJ