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Pop_No_Kick
07-15-2005, 04:58 AM
Oh Oh, I've been think'n again.
I have a Colt official Police in 4" .38 Spec. (built on the 41 mag frame) circa 1952.

Also a Colt Trooper Mark III in 8" (.357)
Circa early 70's

Can I Shoot +P's in these Revolvers?

I know that these +P cart's. did not exist when these were Mfg.
I was wondering since thease revolvers are "Heavy" if they could handle the pressure generated from these cart's. ?

Also since I brung up the pressure Q. what are some indicators
of to much pressure ? "other than catching a piece of pistol in the face."?

Just Look'n for some "grain of salt insight."

Thanx's
Chuck.

Willbird
07-15-2005, 10:34 AM
I am quite sure the 357 revolver will be fine with +p.

And I would hazard a guess that the other gun will be too, looking ay hogden data it seems that 38 is 16,000-17,000 psi and 38+p is 19,000 psi.

I would start to worry about 38 +p in J frame sized revolvers not rated for +p, top breaks, stuff like that.

as to pressure signs, with 38 ort 357 even sticky extraction is the first "sign" I think you would see, and that would not be a good thing to be seeing at all,

do a search on Clark the overloader some time if you want to curl your hair....he has done some experiments to destruction with several handguns and calibers.......not that you want to go to those kinds of pressures but it is interesting reading, and many guns are much stronger than we give them credit for.

Bill

beagle
07-15-2005, 12:10 PM
Don't know about the Official Police but I'd shoot them all day long in that Trooper.

I've run thousands of .38 Special loads in the .38/44 loading level out of a 4" Python and it's the same frame I believe. These were in the 1,000 FPS range with a 358429 with no ill affects.

Then I've probably put at least 5K through a Ruger Blackhawk.

In the .357 chambered guns, the extra gap in the chamber between where the .38 case ends and where the cylinder throat starts acts as a freebore and lessens some of the pressure./beagle

BOOM BOOM
07-16-2005, 08:32 PM
HI,
Each gun is a little different, but any 357 should handle 38 +p with no problem. Flattened primers is a pressure sign , sticky extraction is a pressure sign.
Cratered or pirced primers is a back off pressure sign.
Example is my wife's ruger single action will happely shoot loads that stick & flatten primers in my daughter's N frame M-27 357.

Pop_No_Kick
07-17-2005, 01:29 AM
I am quite sure the 357 revolver will be fine with +p.

And I would hazard a guess that the other gun will be too, looking ay hogden data it seems that 38 is 16,000-17,000 psi and 38+p is 19,000 psi.

I would start to worry about 38 +p in J frame sized revolvers not rated for +p, top breaks, stuff like that.

as to pressure signs, with 38 ort 357 even sticky extraction is the first "sign" I think you would see, and that would not be a good thing to be seeing at all,

do a search on Clark the overloader some time if you want to curl your hair....he has done some experiments to destruction with several handguns and calibers.......not that you want to go to those kinds of pressures but it is interesting reading, and many guns are much stronger than we give them credit for.

Bill
I have found some of his post (CLARK) on some boards, I take it he is not liked by many of his so called peers for his un-ethical aproach of reloading. I don't think that they understand what he was trying to prove or dis-prove.
But i found it to be very informitive. and crazy @ the same time. I guess my pistols are stronger than what i've been given them credit for.

Thanx's Bill for the interesting reading!

Chuck.

Pop_No_Kick
07-17-2005, 01:47 AM
HI,
Each gun is a little different, but any 357 should handle 38 +p with no problem. Flattened primers is a pressure sign , sticky extraction is a pressure sign.
Cratered or pirced primers is a back off pressure sign.
Example is my wife's ruger single action will happely shoot loads that stick & flatten primers in my daughter's N frame M-27 357.
Thanx's BOOM, BOOM. That was the kinda of info I was looking
for. Well I guess to most that's Common Sense. But I've never worked up loads before I started to cast.

Thanx's Again
Chuck

Pop_No_Kick
07-17-2005, 01:52 AM
Don't know about the Official Police but I'd shoot them all day long in that Trooper.

I've run thousands of .38 Special loads in the .38/44 loading level out of a 4" Python and it's the same frame I believe. These were in the 1,000 FPS range with a 358429 with no ill affects.

Then I've probably put at least 5K through a Ruger Blackhawk.

In the .357 chambered guns, the extra gap in the chamber between where the .38 case ends and where the cylinder throat starts acts as a freebore and lessens some of the pressure./beagle

Hmmm. .38/44 Your get'n me thunk'n again.
I need to learn more about how a gun REALLY works
Well Beagle thanx's (I Guess) for putt'n more Q's in my head.
hehehe.. Need to do some more reading..

Thanx's
Chuck

9.3X62AL
07-17-2005, 10:51 AM
Pop--

I would be hesitant to use +P ammunition in the Colt Official Police. There is plenty of strength in the frame and cylinder for this pressure level, but the Colt has an attribute that will accellerate wear with constant double-action use of +P loads--soft metallurgy on moving parts, esp. the two-step advancing hand. Colt DA wheelguns are works of art, but depend on the regular attention of armorers or gunsmiths to resolve timing issues that develop with DA usage and heavier loads. My agency had a couple hundred OP's in service at the time I started in 1977. They had begun usage of +P ammo in 1975, and the Colts--which were already getting tired--really took a nose-dive in short order. These were replaced in 1979 with S&W M-64's, and the problems disappeared.

I liken older Colt DA revolvers to having a vintage Model "A" for weekend pleasure drives. The S&W's are for freeway commutes. The Rugers are jobsite construction rigs--the F-250's of the gun venues.

Pop_No_Kick
07-17-2005, 11:13 AM
Pop--

I would be hesitant to use +P ammunition in the Colt Official Police. There is plenty of strength in the frame and cylinder for this pressure level, but the Colt has an attribute that will accellerate wear with constant double-action use of +P loads--soft metallurgy on moving parts, esp. the two-step advancing hand. Colt DA wheelguns are works of art, but depend on the regular attention of armorers or gunsmiths to resolve timing issues that develop with DA usage and heavier loads. My agency had a couple hundred OP's in service at the time I started in 1977. They had begun usage of +P ammo in 1975, and the Colts--which were already getting tired--really took a nose-dive in short order. These were replaced in 1979 with S&W M-64's, and the problems disappeared.

I liken older Colt DA revolvers to having a vintage Model "A" for weekend pleasure drives. The S&W's are for freeway commutes. The Rugers are jobsite construction rigs--the F-250's of the gun venues.
So, the OP's can shoot them, but it Shortens the life span of the pistols...

I did'nt actually want to shoot +P's in it, But wanted to know how these OP's would handle larger amount of Pressure.

Thanx's Dep. Al
Chuck

Pop_No_Kick
07-17-2005, 11:15 AM
Great info. Dep Al!
Thank you for you experiance's !

Thanx's

Chuck

9.3X62AL
07-17-2005, 12:00 PM
No sweat, my friend.

I really like the older Colt wheelguns......those V-spring actions have a unique smoothness, and cycle like no other. The Colt was designed in a day that accepted neighborhood blacksmiths, mechanics, and gunsmiths as a fact of life in most communities, as institutions of the day required for the good of the community. Colt made no bones about it--you needed to have at least an armorer on staff at your police department, and a gunsmith would be even better.

The Colt DA lockwork is a piece of art in metal. I'm a fairly competent handgun armorer, but I also know my limits--and much of the Colt lockwork exceeds my skills. Very few of my deputies carried Colt sidearms after 1980, mostly Pythons and DetSpecs--maybe a dozen of each in a department of 500-1200 people as it grew over the years. If someone is going to shoot a Colt DA wheelgun frequently, it would pay dividends to find a gunsmith that will take on timing issues that afflict these guns from time to time.

I have a Colt Pocket Positive x 6" in 32 S&W Long that is sorely in need of a new advancing hand. It is a delightful little roller, in original nickel finish, and shoots fairly well as long as attention is paid to the cylinder indexing issue shot-to-shot. I will get around to this project in short order, once the flurry of end-of-career subpoenas and the attendant court appearances are completed. HEY--I'M TRYING TO RETIRE HERE! :-)

Char-Gar
07-18-2005, 12:27 AM
The Colt Offical Police with the classic Colt DA lockwork will do just fine with +P loads, but there are a couple of things to remember. When the Colt locks up in full battery, the bottom hand is bearing hard against the ratchet holding the cylinder in firm lockup. Therefore the hand takes the recoil of the pistol and will batter and shorten over time. The more recoil, the quicker the wear on the hand.

This is not a significan't problem, but a piece of regular maintainence on the old Colts. The hand has to be stretched back to it's original length.

Smiths lock up different and don't have this particular problem. They have a few of their own, but not this one.

I have no way to quantify how much quicker the OP will go out of time with +P loads. I don't see much purpose in shooting many of them, just to put holes in targets or beverage cans. A good mild load will do that just as well.

Pop_No_Kick
07-18-2005, 03:54 AM
The Colt Offical Police with the classic Colt DA lockwork will do just fine with +P loads, but there are a couple of things to remember. When the Colt locks up in full battery, the bottom hand is bearing hard against the ratchet holding the cylinder in firm lockup. Therefore the hand takes the recoil of the pistol and will batter and shorten over time. The more recoil, the quicker the wear on the hand.

This is not a significan't problem, but a piece of regular maintainence on the old Colts. The hand has to be stretched back to it's original length.

Smiths lock up different and don't have this particular problem. They have a few of their own, but not this one.

I have no way to quantify how much quicker the OP will go out of time with +P loads. I don't see much purpose in shooting many of them, just to put holes in targets or beverage cans. A good mild load will do that just as well.
Thanx's for the Good info Charger

Chuck

9.3X62AL
07-18-2005, 04:06 PM
Chargar said it more succinctly than I did--thank you, sir.

I have fired very few +P 38 Specials since the late 1980's. The 158 grain standard pressure ammo is what most fixed-sight service 38's were regulated for, so it didn't make much sense to build up high-end loads that stressed the platforms and didn't shoot to the sights anyway. My Colt Officer's Model Target x 6"--very similar to your Official Police--dotes on 150-165 grain boolits at 800-850 FPS. Such ballistics are a real "sweet spot" for that roller.

My "+P" loads these days are put up in Magnum brass and get fired in revolvers so chambered. These are "standard weight" plain-based SWC's run at 1000 FPS or so. Such loads are accurate, easy to shoot well, and do fine work on the rats and small game I hunt with them. These make up 90% of my 357, 41, and 44 Magnum loadings of late.