Beretta M9A1 range report

[Seth_AZ]

Hi all. I recently created a thread to report on my efforts to lap out a Lyman 120gr TC bullet that was casting .356" bullets to shoot in my Beretta M9A1, which has a .357" bore.

I tried a few of these last night at a steel shoot, and found that they didn't feed properly most of the time. They kept hanging up on the feed ramp. Today I loaded up a bunch more, with two powder charges, but seated the bullets significantly deeper (1.04" instead of 1.07"). I went out to the range and tested them.

They fed much better, but there were still a number of feed ramp hangups. Not nearly as many as I had with the original length. I could still seat these bullets .015" or so deeper before the ogive starts to drop below the case mouth. There's a good chance that would make the feeding problem go away.

I think it's a moot point, however, since the bullets shot like POOOOOP! I want to say between 15-20% of the bullets were keyholing at 10 yards. The group sizes were terrible to say the least.

This was with two different loads, first 4.2gr Universal Clays, and the second load 4.5gr Universal Clays.

In my other thread I mentioned that this gun's bore slugs out at around .357", and I was going to size these bullets to .357", since the mold was actually dropping them at .356" and it was a lot of work for me to lap it out to get to .357", so trying for .358" was kind of a non-starter. With my original alloy I did seem to be getting good sizer contact on both driving bands at .357", but these bullets I shot today were cast from alloy after I'd fluxed it a number of times with sulfur to see if I had zinc in it, and these bullets cast slightly smaller, with the forward driving band no longer showing consistently good sizer contact.

Is a difference of .001" on the diameter really going to make otherwise decent bullets keyhole at 10 yards like this? I am doubtful. I'm thinking I've got a mold this gun just isn't going to like.

I was reading in this thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=161100&highlight=beretta) some guys shooting different model Berettas with some bullet designs different than what I have, and they claim to be getting good results.

Anyone have any comments? I am to the point where if a gas-checked design would give me really good results in this pistol it would be worth the 2 cents per round to use them. I want to shoot these every week at my club's Tuesday Night Steel practical pistol event.

In my speculations I'm kind of leaning toward a 140-147gr. gas-checked round flatnose design. Has anyone tried a bullet like this in the Beretta M9/M9A1/92FS and seen success? How about a gas-checked 124 grainer?

[runfiverun]

we deal in .001's.
my taurus copy of the baretta didn't do well untill i went to 358 diameter.
your oal is gonna be whatever it is to feed.
as you go shorter you need to cut back the powder charge to compensate for the lost case capacity.
don't give up quite yet, you just need to refigure things a little bit.

[Seth_AZ]

So, keep lapping and try to get it up to .358", and that might make the difference between keyholing and shooting great?

[MtGun44]

You'll almost certainly need .358 diam. I use that boolit at .357 or .358 in many 9mms,
including a Beretta 92 with excellent results. What lube are you using? Are you taper crimping?

NOT using a Lee FCD?

Bill

[Seth_AZ]

I lubed them with Carnauba Red in my Star sizer. I taper crimped (9mm Dillon dies).

I suppose I'll have to make another go at lapping that mold. It was slow going because it was my first time. I'll see if I can get this thing up to .358" and give it another go.

In the meantime, anyone here from Arizona and have any interesting 9mm bullets they wouldn't mind letting me sample? I live around 4 miles from the Magma Engineering shop. They've got a 147gr FP BB that looks really awesome, but I doubt they'd have any bullets lying around they'd let me sample. I suppose I can ask. It's a 2-cavity, but that doesn't have to be a deal breaker for me. Kind of wish they made this in a 4-cavity though.

I notice there was a group buy a couple years ago here of a 147ish gr. 9mm bullet. Here's the thread. (http://www.gunloads.com/castboolits/showthread.php?t=52589&page=4) That looks like a fantastic design. Anyone want to part with theirs?

ps: are you saying using the Lee FCD is bad? I don't have any, but my brother mentioned them. Not recommended around here?

[Seth_AZ]

Ugh. I just cleaned the Beretta. The leading was absolutely horrible. I believe you guys are right, that diameter isn't big enough.

[captaint]

Seth - I believe you need to start with .358 diameter boolits. If they will chamber at that size, let em rip. Should shoot well. enjoy Mike

[Echo]

Seth, you might be swaging the boolit base down by seating so deeply. Nine mm cases are all over the place re wall thickness, and are tapered inside, to boot. Seat a boolit as you normally do, then pull the boolit and mike the dimensions, especially at the heel.

[Seth_AZ]

I'll pull one today and see if they got swaged down. The Dillon powder funnel is only around .353" in the main area that's just expanding the case.

For a bullet diameter of .358", what would be the optimum expander diameter? Would .356" be good?

Also, I'd have thought that by now someone would be selling aftermarket Dillon powder funnels machined to match Lyman M-die case neck expansion, rather than just belling it.

I'm betting that a 9mm powder funnel for my RL550B machined to .356" with an M-die expander would just kill.

[MtGun44]

Stop lapping and beagle that mold, at least for testing. MUCH less work and you will
know for sure if it will be OK. If you don't know what beagling is - do a search. Lapping
is great, but time consuming and not reversible. Test by beagling, lap once you
are sure.

Basically you use aluminum foil tape (furnace tape) in tiny squares stuck to the mold
faces to keep them from closing fully. A few layers and you can get the diam you need.
Yes, they are out of round. No, it doesn't make any difference. Quick and easy.

I suggest NRA 50-50 lube, too. Don't have anything against Carnuba Red, but I also
have no idea if it is any good for 9mm. Try a 'known good' recipe, THEN start
changing stuff.

Lee 356-120-TC at .358 or so, NRA 50-50, air cooled wwts, slower powder like
Unique. Taper crimp, NO FCD. Have you read the sticky on "setting up a new
9mm for boolits" ?? May find more details there.

Bill

[Seth_AZ]

I pulled a bullet from one of the dummy rounds I made while setting up the dies on the Dillon.

Here's a closeup photo of it. It's measuring only .354" on both the fore and aft driving bands! Those bullets are starting out at like .3565-.357" and being sized to .357, and by the time they are seated in the 9mm cases expanded with the .353" Dillon powder funnel, they are being swaged down to .354". That's drastic.

And look at the tail end of that bullet. It's actually got a little mini boat-tail swaged into it! I've looked at the Dillon powder funnel, and it looks like it's not expanding the cases (even to .353") deep enough, so the last little bit of bullet is hitting the completely unexpanded case and having to push it out itself. The lead at the 90 degree corner is too soft to do this without being deformed.

So these bullets are being shot radically undersized, and with an unwanted boat-tail eating away at the bearing surface length of that rear driving band.

So, if I were casting and sizing bullets to .358", what diameter would be the most appropriate for the expander die so that it wouldn't swage down the bullets, but still have enough tension to hold the bullets properly? Would .356" do it?

http://www.leigh.org/seth/pulled_bullet_web_0029.jpg

[Texasflyboy]

Same problem three years ago with a Browning High Power in 9mm.

Here is the link:

Link to old Thread on Browning High Power Keyholing (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=4738)

The cure was to size at .358. No keyholing after that.

FWIW.

[Seth_AZ]

Thanks for that link, Texasflyboy! I'm glad that you solved what looks like the same problem I'm having with just a simple bump-up in bullet diameter.

I need to prioritize my experiments. Since the bullets are being swaged dramatically by being seated in my cases as expanded by the Dillon powder funnel, I think I need to deal with that first.

I just had a look, and my Lyman M-die for .38 caliber is actually the .38AP model, which has .353" (mine measures closer to .352") and .357" for the two expander widths. I need the .38P model, which is .356" and .360".

I intend to order a .38P M-die expander from Lyman asap, and then size/decap and M-die expand 30 rounds of 9mm and load them up using my pile of .357-sized bullets. This should eliminate the swaging of the bullets by the cases, and allow me to test whether .357" sizing is sufficient.

If that works out then I need to get a Dillon-compatible powder funnel that will do the same thing as the Lyman .38P m-die so I can load on my RL550B at full speed.

I'm betting in the end I'll see my best results by expanding the cases using .38P m-die dimensions, and by casting and sizing my bullets to .358".

This sure has been edumacational to me. I appreciate the links and the advice. I realize none of this is new ground, and I appreciate being able to fall back on experience others have already gained.

[35remington]

I bet those bullets are gas cutting like mad.