New Gun...new problems

[newton]

Well I came across a 'good deal' on a TC Renegade. .54 cal. Pretty gun, nice set triggers, looked real good. I have now learned that when purchasing a used muzzle loader 'looks' can be deceiving and one should concentrate on the inside, not the outside.

I got it home and decided to take that 'closer' look inside.

47445

I am perplexed at the "rings" on the inside of the barrel. I know that the rust and pits are a bad thing, but the rings are what has me dumbfounded.

I know that I am just going to have to shoot the gun to see what happens. I have shot guns with pitting before and they shot decent. And being the gun it is, I do not need anything more than hunting accuracy out to 125 yards I am guessing. But I would love to hear what others have found when shooting a gun with really bad pitting? Anyone have any stories of bad pitting and good groups...:D

The rifling is still sharp...where its not rusted. It turns a patch really good. My thoughts are that it was shot a few times, then put up dirty, then sold and the next guy tried to clean it but just could not get it to shoot. They guy I bought it from said he was just trying to shoot sabots in it and did not try conicals. I have no doubt that he did not get good accuracy because of just using sabots.

I am hoping...really hoping...that by using maxiballs and good lube it will shoot fine. I have heard that bad bores shoot alright after a couple of fouling shots that 'fill up' the pits.

But the other perplexion is the 'rings' that are inside. I wish I had a bore scope I could look down a ways, but the rings do go down a ways inside. Its almost like tooling marks, but they seem pretty even but also pretty deep. I just cannot see what would make those marks. Maybe someone trying to clean? But they are very concentric and seem to be spread evenly.

Anyone run into marks like these? I know the picture is not the best. Also, still would love to hear some "encouraging" stories of bad bores shooting good. lol.

[longbow]

Its a little hard to tell in the photo but the rings look like rough machining left in the bore before rifling.

I have a CVA Hawken with slightly rough lands (lands only not grooves) that look similar though not as bad as yours. It shoots PRB not badly but not stellar. I have decided I will lap it but have not got it done yet.

Are the rings only on the lands or lands and grooves? If in the grooves as well, I have no suggestions except bad steel but being a TC I wouldn't expect that.

In any case, the pitting looks to be fairly deep so that in itself may be a problem. Is it just at the muzzle or all the way down the barrel?

You certainly may as well try shooting it though and conicals may do okay even if the bore is too rough for patches.

You might try a felt wad under the conical to ensure sealing especially in rough spots. That might help.

If it shoots reasonably then possibly a little lapping will clean it up some and give better accuracy and reduced fouling.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Longbow

[Maven]

newton, A couple of suggestions, even though I can't answer your query about the "rings" near the muzzle. First, there seems to be a small nick/ding in the crown at the 1:30 position, which needs to be removed via 320 or 400 grit paper and the ball of your thumb. Second, plug the nipple or remove it and completely plug the hole so you can fill the bbl. with Hoppes # 9, kerosene, Kroil, Marvel Mystery Oil, WD-40, or your favorite solvent. Let it sit for at least 2 days and maybe a week. Pour it out and scrub the bore with patches and/or 0000 steel wool (bronze wool if you can find it). Use more patches wetted with your favorite solvent until you're ready to take it to the range.

Once at the range, dry the bore and flash channel (with pipe cleaners), fire a few caps with NO powder charge, and then proceed to load it. T/C's website has load data for both .54cal. round- and Maxi-Balls, btw. You should know that typical T/C bbls. use a .530" RB + a .015" - .016" compressed patch (no patch with the Maxi-Balls though). Your rilfe may be different, however. Test it first at 25 yds. to get on paper and to see if it groups: You should get a 1" hole at that range from a rest if all is well. If so, move your target to 50 yds. and then 100 if necessary, adjusting the sights as needed.

You also asked whether a similar bbl. can shoot accurately. Well, years ago I bought a used T/C .45cal. Hawken with an absolutely filthy bbl. Ditto for a used Dixie (.50cal.). After prolonged (2 wks. ea.) soaking, scrubbing, and removing the dings in the crown of the latter, each would place 5 shots just about touching @ 50 yds. from a rest using patched RB's. Moreover, the Hawken bbl. was fairly insensitive to patch thickness as long as I used the T/C .440" RB. It also shot Lee REALs and T/C Maxi-Balls equally well.

[docone31]

The rings are from excessive cleaning and the jag hitting the bore. My CVA has them also.
What I do,
I take a R.E.A.L. load the grooves with valve compound, load and fire! I put a patch under the R.E.A.L. It only takes a few loads, but, the bore becomes shiney and they load easy.
I have not found the compound has a negative effect on fouling. My Cabelas Hawken loads easy now. No dragging in the bore. Still tight, with good rifling.
After a good soak out with a cleaner, try the R.E.A.L.s. They scrape going in, and polish going out.

[newton]

Thanks guys. I do have high hopes for this gun. Of course, I am one of those eternally optimistic kind of guys even when there seems to be no hope.

I'll do the cleaning for sure. The rings in it are in the lands and groves. I would have thought that it would have been excessive cleaning also, but how in the world they are perfectly transitioned from groove to land back to grove again just does not add up too it being a jag hitting it. I know its hard to tell exactly from the picture. I wish I could get a better photo. I'll try.

I did work on it some with the 0000 steel wool. I am not sure if the rings go all the way down the barrel, but I know that it is rough all the way down the barrel, so I know that the pitting is going to be all the way down.

I will for sure use a wad underneath the conical. I have the mold for both the maxihunter and maxiball. I do not have a REAL mold for the .54. I would suppose that a little compound imbedded in the maxi's would work?

I am glad to hear that others think there may be hope. lol. And thanks for the load data. This is the first .54 I have owned so I was going to have to look that stuff up anyways.

I'll let you all know how it goes. I am probably going to soak it for this week and then shoot it this weekend.

[docone31]

I like the .54. Better than the .50 for most of my shooting.
I would think, anything that has deep grooves will take lapping compound. A maxi should do.
Get a couple of rounds off and then see.
Another point, where the nipple and clean out screw are, sometimes has feathers in the flame channel. I take out my nipple, look at how far into the drum, or bolster the screw goes, and how clean the threads are. With my rifle, once I got the feathers out, I got more reliable ignition.

[KCSO]

The rings are chatter from the rifling tool and not to worry. To slick up the bore first try a piece of scotchbrite on a tight fitting jag with plenty of oil. If that doesn't get it all then cast a lead lap in the bore and charge it with 220 grit and go after it. The bore should smooth up nicely and shoot good yet. All it needs is a good dose of elbow grease.

[waksupi]

Yep, tool chatter. I've seen quite a few like that, and they seem to shoot reasonably well.

[newton]

I find it interesting that TC would let a barrel get out with that. I was thinking it was tooling marks myself, just because of the fact they are on the lands and grooves. The only other thing I can think of is someone putting a wire brush of sorts on a drill in trying to get the bore clean in an 'easy' manner.

I would think that because the rings are around and not up and down then it should shoot fine. But indeed I am going to have to remove a lot of rust before its going to be decent at all. I have some kerosene handy so thats what I'll use.

I think I am going to scrub it, then shoot it a bit, then if it just does not group well I will pour a slug and lap it. I hate to do too much though, the rifling is very crisp. Crisp enough that shining a light down into the bore I can follow it all the way to the end even though there is not much light that gets down there with my big head in the way. What I mean is the rifling throws a very crisp shadow to see. I wish I knew of a homemade rig to see down into a bore with.

One thing that bothers me is the clean out screw is stripped. Obviously it rusted and then someone tried to unscrew it to clean it later and just broke the head off. I have the tools to drill it out and re-tap it. But for now the channel is very clear when I remove the nipple so I am not too worried.

I really do think, that if those are tooling marks, then it does lend itself to show all signs of being a very lightly used - but very much neglected - gun. I would think that with shooting time those rings would have 'worn down'. Or will they always be there?

Thanks again. I feel even more optimistic now. lol

[longbow]

Now that I re-read this and some of the comments, it makes me think that the rings are from broaching if they are on lands and in grooves.

My CVA looks like it was bored and not finished reamed (or at least not well) leaving rings in the bore but then cut rifled so grooves are okay.

If TC broaches then it is possible tool chatter/misalignment would make rings on lands and grooves. I can't think how else they would get into the grooves.

If you are shooting conicals with long bearing surface you may be okay.

Clean it well then try it, it may not shoot badly. If accuracy isn't up to snuff then consider hand lapping or fire lapping.

Just another $0.02 worth.

Longbow

[newton]

I've got the TC maxi ball and maxi hunter mold. They throw right at 430 grains. The maxi ball is a little longer than the hunter, and that's the one I had planned on first trying the gun with.

With this one soaking it gives me time to mess around with the other new addition to the club. A .45 hawkin plains rifle I got from a guy on here. But that's a new thread as I am needing advise on it also. It was in MUCH better shape barrel wise than this TC. It's interesting. The stock on the Lyman is quite litteraly beat to heck. But it was, from what I was told, a hunting rifle. But the barrel is very nice inside. Then you have the very nice outside of the TC which probably was not hunted much, but was well taken care of cosmetically. Weird how that works.

[Boerrancher]

My TC Hawken has those nice tooling rings as well. It doesn't seem to effect the way it shoots, in fact it happens to be one of my better shooters. If anything will prevent it form shooting well it will be the pitting. My suggestion would be to start with the least invasive process to clean it up. Soak it well in solvent and then try brushing and patching it until the patches come out clean and rust free. Take it to the range and shoot it. If it shoots well, then carry on as normal. If it doesn't well then take the next step of lubing some REALs with valve grinding compound and polish it that way. Go easy on the fire lapping. You don't want to take out too much.

Best wishes,

Joe

[newton]

Well I got the thing soaking in kerosene. It is leaking a little out the toothpick and so this morning I could see the end of the barrel. I am amazed at how well that works. It indeed cuts into the rust.

I'll let it soak a bit longer then give it another scrubbing. I still have high hopes. I'm thinking Saturday I'll get the chance to shoot it.

[mooman76]

Just shooting it will remove allot of the rust depending on how bad it is. May smooth it out some too.

[John Taylor]

I have seen many guns sold because the owner thought they did not shoot well. Remember, it takes about 100 shots in most barrel before they shoot as well as they should.
I would stay away from WD40 and other type penetrating "oils", I get guns in quite often that have a gummy mess from WD40. Most of the people into muzzle loading say not to use any oil based lube in the bore but I have not had any problems with coating the bore with oil when storing it. A little light rust in the bore sometimes makes the barrel shoot better, I don't know why but I have heard some old timers saying they let a new barrel get a little rust to speed up the break in.
If the bore has rough spots, a little lapping compound on the patch and ball will smooth it out, called fire lapping. Most of the older T/C rifle had rifling that was only .005" deep so it could be used with the maxi ball. Twist rate was a compromise, a little slow for a maxi and a little fast for a round ball. The maxi's shoot better with a heavy load and the round ball with a lighter load. But not all shoot the same so you need to see what your rifle likes.

[mooman76]

I used WD40 in my MLs for years and had no problems. It doesn't dry gummy. If guns are coming in a gummy mess, they probably used petolium based lubes when shooting. Oil based lubes are fine for storage after cleaning. I don't use allot but I live in a dry climate. Each will have to satisfy their own needs. Swabbing with a alcohol patch may be needed before firing and it will shoot fine.

[Boerrancher]

I used WD40 in my MLs for years and had no problems.

We have had the WD-40 debate many times and the only thing I am going to say about it to keep from rehashing everything that that has already been posted a thousand times, is this: To each his own and your mileage my vary.

Newton,

Also one of the things you may find, and I did with my TC after I got the bore cleaned up on it, was that it will cut patches. Every recovered patch has 6 nice little slits in a perfect circle, a half inch in dia, where the rifling cut it. If you notice your gun doing this don't worry about it too much. Take it as a sign that the rifling are getting a good grip on the patch and providing a proper rotation to the ball. If it burns through the patch that is a whole different story and we can deal with that later. The reason why I mention the cut patches is that it usually happens in a gun after the bore has been allowed to rust, and then cleaned up. I didn't want you to get the gun cleaned up and the first time to the range flip out because it was cutting patches.

Over time with a bit of shooting, and the the proper clean up, it will eventually stop cutting patches if it does it to begin with. As I said don't worry about it if it does. I have seen some good shooting rifle barrels that cut patches get turned into nothing more than a hexagon shaped jack handle because the fella that owned it couldn't leave well enough alone and kept lapping and polishing until it wouldn't shoot anymore, simply because they wanted it to stop cutting patches.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Hanshi]

The main thing I can agree on is: clean the bore up to the extent possible and shoot, shoot, shoot. If it starts shooting well after a couple hundred rounds, then everything else is moot. Good luck.

[newton]

Thanks guys. I am going to take it out this evening. I do not have any patches for the round balls I have. So I will just be using the Maxi Hunters I have cast up. I'll try balls too, but I am thinking the maxi's will work.

I think they will do better than the maxi ball will. They are shorter. I did a "calculation" for ideal twist rate, and the maxihunter came up with the ideal of 1:48. The maxiball came up with an ideal of 1:42. I found that interesting.

I did scrub the bore quite a bit, but now I am just going to shoot it. My biggest fear is to scrub the rifling out of it. The rifling still throws a good shadow at the muzzle so I know its still crisp. You can only see it when you shine a light because of all the rust pitting.

[docone31]

You can make patches.
You can take an old pair of jeans, or an heavy shirt, cut them 1" X 1" square.
Oil them with Crisco, and load them. I use square with my Round Balls also.

[mooman76]

I usually use old cotton dress shirts that I don't wear anymore. They have a good tight weave and are usually strong material. Just got to find the right thickness that works. Try several and the ones that don't work the best or you don't want to use become cleaning patches. Old military BDUs make good patches but are a little thicker which isn't a bad thing if they can be used. They are strong like denim but not as thick.

[Boerrancher]

As to patches the only thing they have to be is 100% cotton. I wouldn't even get to worried about thickness at first, as long as it is not too tight to load. If you are going to use it for a hunting rifle then you need your patches thin enough that you can start them with your thumb and rod, and you shouldn't need a short starter, as those are only for PRB target shooting and conicals. Right now the goal is to put as many rounds through that gun as you can. I wouldn't even worry about using anything but spit patches. Cut up an old cotton shirt, denim pants, or cotton bed sheet, anything 100% cotton, as was suggested cut it into 1 inch squares and shove a couple in your mouth at a time to keep them moist. Then shoot, shoot, shoot the more rounds you can put through it the better.

Best wishes,

Joe

[izzyjoe]

i've found that old dress shirts are to thin for me, but they do make great cleaning patches. bluejean's may be a tad to thick, but the front pockets seem to work fine. hope you get you're 54 shootin' good, i need to shoot mine in the mouring to get it ready for deer season. :D

[newton]

Well guys, shot it today. I am a little sore. However, I kid you not, I got three holes almost touching at 100 yards. I was blown away. I first started off with a round ball at 25 yards. Then when I had it close I loaded the maxi hunters in. I shot again at 50 to get my elevation set. Then moved out to 100. First shot was a little high and a little right. But I did not want to adjust anything till I put some more down there. Next shot was about 12" higher than the first but dead straight up. I just had the sneaky suspision that I pulled it so I shot again and had it almost touching the first. Liked that. Shot again and it hit right with the others. A nice little clover.

I know half of it is pure luck. I am shooting stock sights that I modified just a tad. I'll have to post pictures on Monday of it all, can't do it from here. But with stock sights the target is simply a little dot down there. I have always shot iron sights well, but I guess I just did not expect the results I got. It is a definite keeper. Even if one shoots a little to the right, left, up, or down it is flat out going to put a hurting on the animal.

I settled in with 100 grains pyrodex, 1/8" wool felt wad just smeared a little with my lube, 435 grain maxihunter that I cast from soft lead and air cooled. I found a nifty little thing that TC puts out that says this load should be clocking around 1350 fps. My lube is 50/50 beeswax/lard.

The barrel is starting to smooth out some, but it's still rough. And the tooling marks ain't going anywhere. You look in the end of the barrel and you would think its a hunk of junk. It's crazy. Needless to say I'm excited. I'll play around more with the RB's. They kicked a LOT less. But for now this is my 'put a hurt on a deer' gun, and I'm sticking with the maxi hunters.

[izzyjoe]

wow that's some fine shootin', glad you got it workin' for you. them maxi's will put a hurtin' on both ends!

[Boerrancher]

I am glad it is seems to be a shooter. In all honestly it takes a great deal of abuse to completely ruin a good ML barrel to where it is no longer good enough to hunt with.

Best wishes,

Joe

[newton]

Yes, they hurt alright. I really want to shoot again tomorrow because I ran out of daylight today. I want to move the sight and try again. I just wonder what it will feel like with my shoulder like it is now. I really do like the kick. But after a while it does make you flinch. It's nice having the hair trigger though. That's something you don't find on an inline.

I think if I had a peep for it I could really do some damage.

[Boerrancher]

I think if I had a peep for it I could really do some damage.

T/C made a peep sight that fit the tangs of the Renegade and Hawken Rifles. The gun shop in town has one and I am going to buy it for my Hawken. It doesn't have a price on it and I can not get the clerk to sell it to me and can never catch the owner there, or it would be on my rifle already.

Best wishes,

Joe

[newton]

Well, as promised here is my group. Like I said, two of the shots were back to back, with the other shot being the first. In total there were four shots at this target, but I know that I pulled the second shot.

47630

I adjusted the sights and shot again yesterday and am now hitting 2" high at 100. I cannot even describe how excited I am. Maybe its because I just did not think it would shoot this good, even though I had high hopes all along.

I am going to be one confident guy walking in the woods this year. I can truly say this gun shoots better than me. If I miss something, its not going to be the guns fault.

Thanks for all the info and help.

I am thinking in the future I will try to get a rear sight of some kind. I am not a big fan of a tang sight of any kind on a hunting rifle. I found a sight that sells a dovetail piece that screws to the top and then you can put a 3/8" dovetail sight in of your choice. I want something adjustable. I'm going to just keep my eye's open for the right sight. I'll know it when it comes along. This is going to be my hunting rifle so I need something real sturdy.

[mooman76]

Nice group. You got you a shooter now.

[Boerrancher]

I know you are not a fan of the tang sight, but the one for the TC rifles is not what most folks think when they here the term, "tang sight." So I found one and am posting the link. I can promise you that a sight like this will not ruin the look of you gun nor will it be a PITA to zero and use.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/620637/thompson-center-hunting-style-tang-peep-sight-hawken-renegade-big-boar-white-mountain-carbine-and-pennsylvania-hunter

Best wishes,

Joe

[newton]

Thanks for the link. I have to admit that I do like the looks of that. One thing though, that I just cannot wrap my mind around, is that when you take the barrel off to clean and then place it back on, I would always feel like I would have to sight it in again.

Does the barrel always lock up right to the same place every time? One thing I have thought about, that I might do (but will ask plenty of questions before hand), is cutting a dovetail into the back end somewhere to install a dove tail peep of some kind. I was thinking right on the breech plug, seeing how its rearward of the nipple and is made of solid metal. Would this degrade the integrity?

I know that it is another subject, and I do not have time right now to tackle it. But I will need some advice on it because that is my ideal goal for the gun.

[Glassman66]

I am so happy I found this thread, I just purchased my first muzzleloader and found similar rust on it when I cleaned it up. I was very P.O.'d at first but the info here is giving me some encouragement.

Is the gun still shooting well? I hope so.

Oh, and the gun I picked up is a CVA Bobcat. I think I am going to like a sidelock.



Randy

[johnson1942]

newton: i know you dont like sabots but (MMP sabots) found on the internet, has a .54 sabot that shoots a .50 bullet. i think you have a sizer for about that and if you have a .50 something mould that is about .75 or .80 long get 50 sabots from mmp and put a short .50 bullet in it behind 100 grains of what ever you have and i bet that renagade will drive tacks. im getting away from sabots also but your renagade barrel shoots them very well. i bet you will figure something out.

[newton]

I am so happy I found this thread, I just purchased my first muzzleloader and found similar rust on it when I cleaned it up. I was very P.O.'d at first but the info here is giving me some encouragement.

Is the gun still shooting well? I hope so.

Oh, and the gun I picked up is a CVA Bobcat. I think I am going to like a sidelock.



Randy

Yes, the gun still shoots just great. I have not even thought about trying a different boolit either. Those Maxi-hunters seem to be the ticket with this gun. I had a Bobcat once. It was my first ML, before I knew diddly about them. I ended up twisting the tang off and then subsequently cutting the barrel off. I wish I would have never done that. I like the side lock, more so than my inline to tell the truth. Eventually I will get a fast twist .50 cal sidelock.




newton: i know you dont like sabots but (MMP sabots) found on the internet, has a .54 sabot that shoots a .50 bullet. i think you have a sizer for about that and if you have a .50 something mould that is about .75 or .80 long get 50 sabots from mmp and put a short .50 bullet in it behind 100 grains of what ever you have and i bet that renagade will drive tacks. im getting away from sabots also but your renagade barrel shoots them very well. i bet you will figure something out.

I have seen those .54 sabots. But I really do want to stay away from anything I have to buy like that. It shoots so well with the boolits I make that I cannot think of a good reason to shoot anything else. I guess trajectory would be better.

[curator]

Wrap bronze wool around an old bore brush and scrub the heck out of it. Bronze wool (particularly the coarse grade) will take rust off without harming your bore. WD40, Kroil, or even ATF will work to soften the rust. It might take several attempts but eventually the bore will come clean. You may have a few pits but I have never found them to be really bad for accuracy with patched round ball.

[johnson1942]

if you got a boolit that shoot good stick with. no reason to change if it works. i do recomend a magspark nipple even though you have no ignition problems, as it is like a insurance polity you only have to pay for once. it will go off when that deer is in your sights. i think it helps burn all the powder better. i have absolutetly no bad groups with it. your renagade is a american standard 10/24 thread, some day you may want to put another barrel on that renagade. it is a very versitile gun. i have rebarreled two thompson guns. i have a hawken barrel in .45 cal and a renagade barrel in .50 extra barrels. any body have any idea how to sell them? i put time peroid sights on them the .45 is cryotreated.

[flstf_2000]

Definetley boreing chatter marks. Appears the boreing machine was a hair out of line. I would contact TC and see if they would replace the barrel for you.