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Gibson
09-04-2012, 02:18 AM
I am trying to get this BFR 500 S&W Mag and 440 gr. Lee bullet worked out.

[There has been a kind fellow here helping me and the things I've tried and studied about have been a collaborative effort. His benevolence has been commendable.]

BFR 500 S&W Magnum
7.5" barrel (the way they measure)
AV ~1625 fps

Lee Classic 4-Hole Turret Press
Lee Carbide 3-Die Set
Lee Sizer .501
Lee 440 gr. bullet
Veral's Blue Soft Lube
WQWW with a bit of tin added
WC820 powder
*- brass
CCI 250 primers

It is a very accurate firearm. It is the strongest firearm I have ever owned or seen.

Okay that's out of the way. . . after I had it sighted in with the front sight that was on it, I was swayed by the manual and went ahead and changed to the included "heavier bullet" front sight. Not completely sure why but I guess it was to try for better accuracy. I was simply putting them on paper with the others but that was mostly just me. I am kind of a bull in a china shop. Changed them out and took two nights to get them sighted in. One my last three shots of the second evening they shot a very nice group. It was dark, so I quit there. But a couple of days later (tonight) I was back at it. First three shots fired were quite fine, then it went to hell. . . I am starting to wonder if the recoil could cause the open sights to get misaligned, in short order. I have noticed it seems to.

I've been casting and reloading almost all of the rounds I've shot. But once I ironed out the case crushing issue (don't ask) all has been well, EXCEPT one big thing: 10% of my cases will not seat at all in any chamber, 50% work beautifully, and 40% need a slight push to a strong push to seat. I have been studying about it, and it seems to me that it's a concentricity issue. So, I took each die apart and cleaned and checked, most specifically the seating and crimping die. I have it set to seat and then just before the handle is all the way down it crimps. I even tried seating half-way then spinning the bullet 180 degrees and then finishing the seating. Nothing cured it. My efforts did get me to my above rough percentages.

Now to the ejecting. I notice that some few of the cases are VERY difficult to eject while most come out easily, and few are a bit sticky. I have wondered if it was the cases that I had to seat with my thumb that are sticking? So, I tried to keep an eye on them and see. Inconclusive, as I get too caught up in the shooting per se. Anyway, I suspect that those cases that I have to repeatedly jackhammer with the ejector rod are overpressured. I cannot understand how that being tight to the cylinder would necessarily raise the pressure and I'm fairly certain that some random rounds are getting sticky that fit the cylinder throat okay. I do suspect that I am getting a small percentage of random overpressures. It clearly seems that way based on recoil.

I've tried to give a reasonably full accounting.

Be clear, I do not care about one ragged hole, 1/2" groups at 50 yards, etc. I enjoy the big boom and the recoil; the muzzle flash, etc. makes me feel alive. As with anyone, accuracy is king but it's not overriding for me. 2" group at 50 yards with open sights, suits me. My loadings are close to full power and even the seeming odd overpressures are NOTHING to this gun. It eats the stuff, no kidding. And they can be VERY accurate when I do my job.

1) Some loaded rounds are not concentric; seems like it would have to be uneven bullet seating.

2) The chambers are NOT 100% identical in diameter. But I should think they are well within tolerances; factory ammo falls into any of them very easily.

3) The odd over pressures, or SEEMINGLY overpressured based on recoil and sticking cases. . . All from the exact same loadings and components (?)

4) The fact that these occurrences seem random. In that the exact same set of circumstances works perfect in mot instances but then the random oddity.

5) Recoil jarring the "IRON" sights?

Here are some clips of me shooting it. My little boy videoed them with his phone

First time shooting it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNdnvIgZPP0&list=UU6-3g6Pu1aLVt5GtxsMSs9Q&index=1&feature=plcp

Shooting 10 gallon jugs filled with water, blew up the first 5 or so and then just sailed through the others, nasty water absolutely soaked my face, even got in my mouth. LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXLmCdl_vfc&feature=BFa&list=UU6-3g6Pu1aLVt5GtxsMSs9Q

One for fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZowd_WOU-4&feature=BFa&list=UU6-3g6Pu1aLVt5GtxsMSs9Q

If you have any suggestions concerning the seating issue, let me know.

Could 1 & 2 be combined? Id Est: Could the tough or impossible to seat cases be a combination of slightly smaller throat and a non-concentric bullet seating?

Could the random overpressures be from the auto disc powder measure not very occasionally overcharging?

Maybe those last two questions are my answers. Veral Smith suggested that I very quickly after quenching, dry them, size them and get them loaded. Telling me that the bullet might not bulge the case as much. I don't know. . .

MarcusT
09-04-2012, 09:14 AM
Are all your cases the same length? If not you may be over crimping the longer ones causing a slight bulge making them hard to chamber.

snuffy
09-04-2012, 05:20 PM
Gibson, I don't see where you listed the charge weight of the WC-820 powder. AND if you're loading it using H-110 data, it's a lot faster powder than H-110. It should be loaded to AA-#9 data. (At least the WC- 820 I have is).

I too have the big smith, AND I shoot the lee 440 boolit I cast. So far I've only used longshot powder, it makes for a "comfortable" load. It's quite accurate, but no records as to groups size or chrono data. How fast were those loads?

That powder should run through that lee disc measure like water. Mine works just fine with all ball powders.

Gibson
09-04-2012, 07:03 PM
Gibson, I don't see where you listed the charge weight of the WC-820 powder. AND if you're loading it using H-110 data, it's a lot faster powder than H-110. It should be loaded to AA-#9 data. (At least the WC- 820 I have is).

I too have the big smith, AND I shoot the lee 440 boolit I cast. So far I've only used longshot powder, it makes for a "comfortable" load. It's quite accurate, but no records as to groups size or chrono data. How fast were those loads?

That powder should run through that lee disc measure like water. Mine works just fine with all ball powders.

Hi Friend:

I just walked in the door from shooting another 25 rounds. Sweating. I shoot in my backyard.

My WC820 is SLOWER. I have loaded almost 1.5k rounds with it, in various handguns. It is NOT AA#9. It is close to H110, I reduce H110 beginning loads by 10% and work up. It ends close to H110. I have chrono'ed several strings and I posted the AV above, ~1625 fps. I do not post loadings anymore. Too many dolts. . .

It does run through easily. VMD = ~0.0672. Make no mistake this is not a comfort load but it's tolerable, mostly. This gun has fired well over a hundred rounds and is as tight as a drum. I absolutely love it, it's the gun I've been looking for. Just tape up my trigger finger and thumb a bit, then set my jaw and rock steady. Fun, fun!

I am just a bit suspicious about the seeming random higher pressures. May be just me. But I doubt it, once in a while on a round kicks like a scalded mule.

As I typed it is accurate, much more than I am.

Really not my issue, though. My issue is with the non-concentric cases. Discussed it ad nauseum with a very nice fellow at Lee we called back and forth a few times today.

After mic'ing a loaded case that would not seat in any chamber, it was clearly larger is diameter and not quite concentric at 3/16"-1/4" from the case mouth. What does that tell me? Not sure. BECAUSE they are all pushed through a .501 sizing die.

It's a mystery.

I do not see how that every cast bullet can be sized to .501 and yet some few will not seat at all and ~40% require some degree of force to seat in certain chambers and will not seat in others. ~50% will drop in any. I realize that what I'm seeing is that all the cartridges are fairly close to some of the chamber tolerances but do fit correctly. What I'm not seeing is that the slight difference in cylinder throats are only evident when I get just beyond that size. Nevertheless if they are all at 501, then unless my seating die is randomly seating then uneven and causing a slight bulge then I'm unsure what to make of it. I suppose I can just order a .499 sizing die from Lee and let the tail go with the hide.

thanks for the post, "snuffy".

500MAG
09-04-2012, 07:22 PM
I shoot the same boolit in my 500 S&W and have no problems. The case does fit snug in the chamber but is fine. Is it possible there is an issue with your sizing die? I wouldn't size the boolits down more than .501 for fear of causing a leading issue.

Gibson
09-04-2012, 08:39 PM
I shoot the same boolit in my 500 S&W and have no problems. The case does fit snug in the chamber but is fine. Is it possible there is an issue with your sizing die? I wouldn't size the boolits down more than .501 for fear of causing a leading issue.

500MAG:

Maybe. If it is it looks like it would be always wrong. Some bullets fall right in. I do not understand how it could selectively mess up.

It's a mystery to me. But you are probably correct about the .499.

May be something I have live with.

snuffy
09-04-2012, 08:48 PM
Well YOUR WC-820 is slower than AA#9, but mine is about the same speed. I got mine from GI-brass, Jeff Bartlet about 5 years ago. Maybe some newer stuff is slower. My understanding is it's pull-down powder from 30 carbine loads. It's burn rate is all over the map from what I see here and other places on the "net".

I'll have to give it a try in my .500. Nothing like cutting powder costs in half on a big load like that!

As for your other troubles, I have no help to give you. I use lee dies, AND I use a bit of lube for those huge cases, even WITH carbide dies. That's a lot of surface area to make for drag, and they're seldom undersize because of the pressure generated. I use a mix of brass, most is nickle starline, the rest is a mix of plain brass from factory loads fired by the former owner.

The only shells I've had trouble chambering is the 700 grand canyon monster rounds. That was traced to warped mold blocks producing larger noses on the boolits.

The 440's fall in and fall out if unfired, a simple tap on the ejector ejects all 5 easily after firing.

Gibson
09-04-2012, 09:01 PM
Well YOUR WC-820 is slower than AA#9, but mine is about the same speed. I got mine from GI-brass, Jeff Bartlet about 5 years ago. Maybe some newer stuff is slower. My understanding is it's pull-down powder from 30 carbine loads. It's burn rate is all over the map from what I see here and other places on the "net".

I'll have to give it a try in my .500. Nothing like cutting powder costs in half on a big load like that!

As for your other troubles, I have no help to give you. I use lee dies, AND I use a bit of lube for those huge cases, even WITH carbide dies. That's a lot of surface area to make for drag, and they're seldom undersize because of the pressure generated. I use a mix of brass, most is nickle starline, the rest is a mix of plain brass from factory loads fired by the former owner.

The only shells I've had trouble chambering is the 700 grand canyon monster rounds. That was traced to warped mold blocks producing larger noses on the boolits.

The 440's fall in and fall out if unfired, a simple tap on the ejector ejects all 5 easily after firing.

Roger, that.

Mine is a BFR. I bought it sorta used. The gentleman who had it bought it new 5 years ago and shot 20 rounds in those 5 years. Frankly after thorough inspection I could not tell it had been fired. He had it quad ported by mag-na-port. I think the rise/roll/flip is indeed cut down but the thing has a torque. You know how SA grips tend to give you a built in muzzle rise due to the grip being where it is relative to the centerline of the barrel, thus bleeding off, if you will, the straight back recoil, somewhat? The porting seems to negate it but strangely it seems have a kind of sideways torque. I know, the force vector is straight back down the barrel but I swear it RIPS to the right (I am a southpaw). Oh well, keeps me alert and bearing down.

I really appreciate both you and 500MAG throwing out some suggestions. I guess I'll just go with what I have and maybe buy a bullet puller.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7206/imag0131q.jpg

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/8227/imag0133gs.jpg

Truly, it is a beast.

saz
09-05-2012, 12:30 PM
I have the exact same cannon, and I have worked quite a few different loads for the Lee 440 with very good success. My BFR does have pretty tight chambers, and while I was working up a few loads I ran into the problem you have. I was crimping too much and creating the dreaded bulge below the case mouth. I was trying to create a heavy crimp because I was paraniod about jumping crimp. I took some advice from a few fellas on here and loaded 5 rounds with just enough crimp to remove the bell, and still be able to chamber. As I shot them, I measured the OAL after each round. Then 5 more with a little more crimp etc.... Once there was no more boolit pull (actually there wasnt any from the start) I learned to rely more on neck tension rather than the "heavy crimp" to prohibit jumping crimp. After that no more issues.

Bottom line, I was way too worried about crimping enough. After that lesson, I have had no more issues at all. And yes IT IS A LOT OF FUN TO SHOOT!!!! Here are a couple of pics for ya too. My hunting load is a 550gr boolit from a mountain mold moving around 1275fps.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_82574eb08d5cd92ab.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2565)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_82574eb0d478351ee.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2571)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_82574ec045bb783e3.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2690)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_82574eb0d4572b9e6.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2570)

bigboredad
09-05-2012, 10:59 PM
I think SAZ hit the nail on the head I was having the exact same problem with my new to me Ruger .480 I thought I was giving a medium crimp but I was wrong. I also bought the redding profile crimp since I have used one in my .45's and have been very satisfied. I say ease way up on your crimps then slowly increase pressure as needed. I also am a fan of crimping as a seperate step after seating. Take a deep breath don't over think and look for the small easy things first. it is way too easy to over crimp. keep us informed and I hope your boy is improving daily even if it is a tiny improvement

Four-Sixty
09-06-2012, 03:09 PM
I wonder if you've weighed the empty cases. Could it be possible there is some significant variance in the case wall thickness or case head causing your troubles?

Gibson
09-23-2012, 04:54 PM
Update:

I believe it is the crimp. I tentatively have things working,okay.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

captain-03
09-23-2012, 08:39 PM
Update:

I believe it is the crimp. I tentatively have things working,okay.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

Have the 8+" S&W revolver ... had about the same problem with the 440s (mine weight out a little heavier (around 455) and not all wanting to DROP into the cylinder ... added a little more crimp (lot of crimp) and it seemed to have corrected the issue ... still have a few that require some pressure to extract ...

Gibson
09-23-2012, 08:53 PM
Have the 8+" S&W revolver ... had about the same problem with the 440s (mine weight out a little heavier (around 455) and not all wanting to DROP into the cylinder ... added a little more crimp (lot of crimp) and it seemed to have corrected the issue ... still have a few that require some pressure to extract ...

Interesting. Mine, when GC'ed and lubed weigh ~465 grains.

My crimp issue is different but glad you got yours ironed out.

Best Wishes