Where to crimp Lyman 454190?

[Del-Ray]

I've cast most of my 45 colt using the LEE 452-255-RF. It has an obvious crimping groove about the grease groove.

I'm trying out my new Lyman mold, and it has two round bottom grease grooves, but no crimp groove.

Do I apply a "factory crimp" about the top groove? Or do I use the top groove as the crimp groove instead?

Thanks.

[Char-Gar]

Use a traditional roll crimp on the beginning of the ogive. OK..where is that? It is where the bullets stops being stright and starts to form the nose. It is easy to see as it is where the bullet sizing stops. Crimp just over that point.

This bullets is a clone of the factory 45 Colt bullet in use for generations.

Throw your "factory crimp" die away...please!

[HARRYMPOPE]

i agree with char-gar on the 454190 crimp.But the Lee FCD dies does work well for auto pistol calibers.

George

[Wally]

I've cast most of my 45 colt using the LEE 452-255-RF. It has an obvious crimping groove about the grease groove.

I'm trying out my new Lyman mold, and it has two round bottom grease grooves, but no crimp groove.

Do I apply a "factory crimp" about the top groove? Or do I use the top groove as the crimp groove instead?

Thanks.

I've used the Lee and the 454190 and never seem to get consistency with the Lyman as it has no crimping groove, A factory loaded round has a very deep roll crimp--a crimp that I cannot duplicate with my dies. I recently tried a Lyman 452242 and thought I was in heaven..shoot better and has an excellent crimping groove.

[Del-Ray]

Thanks, as soon as I get my TAC in the mail from Randy I'll be ready to shoot!

Oh, and the LEE factory crimp dies for revolvers are roll crimps. But I can just use the die in my Dillon set anyways.

Thanks again!

[Del-Ray]

I've used the Lee and the 454190 and never seem to get consistency with the Lyman as it has no crimping groove, A factory loaded round has a very deep roll crimp--a crimp that I cannot duplicate with my dies. I recently tried a Lyman 452242 and thought I was in heaven..shoot better and has an excellent crimping groove.

A Lyman 452242, or 424?

Graf's doesn't show th 242, but does have a 255ge 424, and it looks like a nice Crimp groove.

[Wally]

A Lyman 452242, or 424?

Graf's doesn't show th 242, but does have a 255ge 424, and it looks like a nice Crimp groove.

Sorry----452424....I mistyped the no.

This bullet is pure joy to cast, load, and to shoot.... Hits like a sledgehammer and I wish I had gotten one a lot sooner.

[Char-Gar]

454190 is probably the most accurate cast bullet for the 45 Colt round available. I have never had any trouble roll crimping the case mouth just over the bullet ogive with my dies. I have both RCBS and Redding dies in 45 Colt.

I don't know what the current Lyman specs are on this mold, but the ones I have used cast bullets .455 to .456. These are great for old Colt sixguns with large throats, but need to be sized down for more recent production sixguns in 45 Colt. Well, some of the Colt SA Italian clones do come with large throats.

I know they are cheap, but I avoid Lee dies like the plague!

[Del-Ray]

The 452424 is on my list now. I'll be ordering it along with a 429640 for my 44 tomorrow at the shop.

I should have them showing up just as the TAC lube is coming in from Randy.

Looks like I'll get to try all three out at the range.

[Wally]

A Lyman 452242, or 424?

Graf's doesn't show th 242, but does have a 255ge 424, and it looks like a nice Crimp groove.

Sorry----452424....I mistyped the no.

This bullet is pure joy to cast, load, and to shoot.... Hits like a sledgehammer and I wish I had gotten one a lot sooner.

[Wally]

The 452424 is on my list now. I'll be ordering it along with a 429640 for my 44 tomorrow at the shop.

I should have them showing up just as the TAC lube is coming in from Randy.

Looks like I'll get to try all three out at the range.

Also have that 429640..a great bullet for a .44 Mag Carbine and the .444 Marlin. For a .44 Mag pistol it is also good but I prefer the 429421, 429215, & the 429244...

[geargnasher]

The 454190 is THE .45 Colt boolit in my book, although the 452664 and some of the better copies with flat bases work well, too.

How you prepare the ammo depends on what gun you're loading. For revolvers, size the brass only enough to hold the boolit well, about .003" tension or so, which should barely reveal the lube grooves on the outside of the brass. Roll-crimp over the first break in the ogive, which gives you just about the same COAL as in the Lyman load manuals. You CAN crimp in the top lube groove and get it to fit some SAA-clone revolvers, barely, but it won't work in most of the leverguns that way.

For leverguns with tubular magazines, you might, MIGHT need to size your brass a bit tigher and expand to the exact depth you're seating the boolit base to provide a sort of "stop" to keep the boolit from telescoping in the magazine, then roll crimp same as the revolver just over the ogive. Most .45 Colt rifles and loads don't recoil enough to cause significant hammering in the magazine to telescope the boolits if your boolit tension is sufficient, but having a little "step" like a cannelure under the boolit base can be good insurance.

For leverguns, I size the case about halfway in a Lee carbide die, then expand with a custom expander that gives me .002" tension on the boolit, and when seated, there is a groove right between where I stopped sizing and where I stopped expanding and seated the boolit base, sort of a narrow "wasp waist". Works well and keeps the cartridge centered in the chamber.

I'm told the 454190 doesn't have a crimp groove because the case was originally filled sufficiently with black powder to prevent the soft lead boolits from telescoping in the leverguns.

Gear

[Wally]

454190 is probably the most accurate cast bullet for the 45 Colt round available. I have never had any trouble roll crimping the case mouth just over the bullet ogive with my dies. I have both RCBS and Redding dies in 45 Colt.

I don't know what the current Lyman specs are on this mold, but the ones I have used cast bullets .455 to .456. These are great for old Colt sixguns with large throats, but need to be sized down for more recent production sixguns in 45 Colt. Well, some of the Colt SA Italian clones do come with large throats.

I know they are cheap, but I avoid Lee dies like the plague!

The Lee .45 252 SWC and their 255 RF are both very good as well in the .45 Colt....

[Tim357]

While the Lyman 454424 and the RCBS clone are fine boolits, a noted problem is the location of the crimp groove depending on the era of manufacture. Handloader magazine did a piece a while back pointing out the differences in nose length vs cylnder length in a Colt revolver. Measure the length of the case, the cylinder and the boolit nose from the crimp groove forward. You may find you either need to seat the boolit deeper, and crimp over the first driving band, or trim the cases to utilize the crimp groove while maintaining an overall length that will function in your gun

[Piedmont]

I'm told the 454190 doesn't have a crimp groove because the case was originally filled sufficiently with black powder to prevent the soft lead boolits from telescoping in the leverguns.

Gear

No leverguns in this chambering until about 30 years ago. Everything else you wrote is spot on.

[runfiverun]

the 454190 was designed around a case full of black powder and couldn't be pushed back into the case that way.
as was pointed out above, leverguns in 45 colt are a recent development.
as such boolits with crimp grooves were developed for them.
the 452667 is quite good in most of them except for the ones that will only take the 1.610 or shorter rounds [like the win 73's]
the 452424 is an update [tee hee] of the 454424 which has the square lube groove and pours to a larger diameter.
pouring big boolits comes in handy even now days with new guns,many of the new colt saa's come with 454-456 throats and 452 bbls.
making one think they would need a boolit that big [i however doubt that you need one that big with a good bbl throat, decent bore,and cylinder alignment]
if however thier bbl's run closer to 453-4 then you would want the bigger boolit.

[John Boy]

Throw your "factory crimp" die away...please!
Char-Gar ... Never!
I use the Ideal 454190 bullet rounds loaded with BP exclusively for CAS. Close to 2000 rounds annually. They are crimped with the Lee Factory Carbide Die - Hard.
Hard defined as needing 8 - 10 whacks from a kinetic puller to dislodge the bullet.

The revolvers at OM Ruger Vaquaro SS Birds Heads throated to 0.4545. The blow back with the hard crimp & Lee die is minimal using the 2010 lot of FFg KIK

[HARRYMPOPE]

[QUOTE=John Boy;1834750]Char-Gar ... Never!
IThey are crimped with the Lee Factory Carbide Die - Hard.
Hard defined as needing 8 - 10 whacks from a kinetic puller to dislodge the bullet./QUOTE]

My 32 ACP and 30 Tokarev's often need the FCD to function well.Accuracy it pretty darn good too.

George

[Larry Gibson]

Use a traditional roll crimp on the beginning of the ogive. OK..where is that? It is where the bullets stops being stright and starts to form the nose. It is easy to see as it is where the bullet sizing stops. Crimp just over that point.

This bullets is a clone of the factory 45 Colt bullet in use for generations.

Throw your "factory crimp" die away...please!

Ghar-Gar has it covered.

Larry Gibson

[GLL]

Five or six years ago Warf73 ran a LEE Group Buy for a 45 2.1 designed 454190 which had a crimp groove. Although I have a couple of nice old IDEAL 454190 molds the crimp groove version is great for .45Colt carbines !

45 2.1 design 454190 with crimp groove
http://www.fototime.com/0F08FE412A9E849/orig.jpg

45 2.1 design 454190 without crimp groove
http://www.fototime.com/D7FD81C7EE4D77F/standard.jpg
Jerry

[M-Tecs]

I am going to see if Tom at Accurate Molds will make me a 454190 with a crimp groove like the print. It will be a 4 cavity brass or a 5 cavity aluminum.

[M-Tecs]

Got an e-mail from Tom at Accurate molds. He has added #45-250F to the catalog. This is the 454190 with a crimp groove. I will be ordering one in the next couple of days.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-250F-D.png

I just have to decide between the 4 cavity brass or a 5 cavity aluminum. Any advise??????

[runfiverun]

if you are used to aluminum molds go with that.
if you use steel go with the brass it behaves about halfway between the two but still likes to run pretty hot.

[Char-Gar]

Got an e-mail from Tom at Accurate molds. He has added #45-250F to the catalog. This is the 454190 with a crimp groove. I will be ordering one in the next couple of days.

I just have to decide between the 4 cavity brass or a 5 cavity aluminum. Any advise??????

A 4 hole brass mould will be VERY heavy.