H110 and the 44 Magnum

[ShooterAZ]

It is Sunday morning here in beautiful Flagstaff, AZ. I figured I would spend the morning loading up some Boolits for my 44 Mags to shoot on Labor Day. I reached into the closet to grab a can of 2400 only to find it nearly empty. All the gun shops are closed today...and I have plenty of H110 on hand.

Up until now, I have not used H110 with cast Boolits, only for M1 Carbine and J-word loads. The boolit I want to load for today is the RCBS 250K. I am a bit confused by Lyman's 49th edition reloading manual. It shows a starting load with the 245gr 429421 at 24 grains of H110, which is higher than the J-word starting load for the 240 JHP at 23.5. The 255 gr 429244 starts at 21.8....:-?


I'm just looking for a reasonable starting place here...I want a full power load...not necessarily a flame thrower. It also recommends a Large Pistol Magnum primer...which I do have on hand. My alloy is Lyman #2 air cooled, which I gather will be around BHN15. The book shows all loads with linotype. Hopefully this will not be too soft?

Hope everyone is having a great Labor Day weekend! Shooter :Fire:

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i used that boolit and powder in my Ruger B/H cast with WW lead works ok
but i like to use 18.5gr of 2400 more
good luck

[mdi]

I don't use H110/W296 any more (load window pretty narrow so I weighed each charge), but I have in the past and I use the same bullet. Don't remember any specific problems (except a bloody middle finger from my SBH!). Most of my casting is done with wheel weight alloy, air cooled, and as long as the bullet fits the gun, I get very little leading. I would trust the Lyman info and start with 21.8 grains. Any load with H110 is full power...

[HeavyMetal]

I use two powders in the 44, Unique and 296/ H110
Any start load will work fine but check a few other manuals, lymans has always struck me as a little odd.

As for primers.....try plain old large pistol non magnum. A member here has convinced me to try them in mag loads and his info has proven out

Do not reduce loads with H110/296!

[ShooterAZ]

i used that boolit and powder in my Ruger B/H cast with WW lead works ok
but i like to use 18.5gr of 2400 more
good luck

Yep me too, Prob my favorite load...

[44man]

Treat H110 and 296 the same today but long ago there was a tiny difference, about 1/2 gr.
24 gr sounds like an over max load for a 245 gr boolit. Cast can take more then jacketed but I think 22 gr is a better start. Same for a 250 gr. I use 22 gr for a 265 gr boolit.
You CAN download a little with H110, but only so much.

[GP100man]

I`ve never gotten in trouble loading at least 80% of available space in straight walled revolver rounds with H-110/WW296.

[ShooterAZ]

I would trust the Lyman info and start with 21.8 grains.

All of the info posted was quoted from the Lyman book...I would trust it if it wasn't all over the place! I think I'll try 50 with 22 grains and see how they shoot. Bullet fit it is not an issue...I just need a reasonable place to start!

Thanks...Shooter:Fire:

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i was looking for this and i came across a load using Bullseye and a 250gr boolit
now this was out of the Lyman 43rd edition the load is 4. gr of bullseye =700 fps
and 7gr of bullseye = 950 fps is this a safe load its not in the newer edition
:hijack:
i started a new post to ask this

[ShooterAZ]

I'm not looking for light load info, but thanks anyway.

[daniel lawecki]

For a 250gr bullet I use 21.5grs of h110. With good groups using standard pistol primers. Which at the time I,m using tula and saving my cci primers for hunting loads

[luvtn]

Check out the Hogdon site. They don't show using 296 for lead cast ,but for nosler jhp they use 23 gr as start and 24 gr as max. I have seen other sites with a start of 22.5 to a max of 25 gr.. I started at 23 gr and worked up to 24.5 gr. I had one sticky case so I dropped back to 24 gr. all this in Ruger Redhawk and Ruger SBH. H110 and 296 are only to be reduced 3 % So from 25 grs. that is 24.25 grs. As said a very narrow window. I also use CCI 350's cause that is what I have. Unable to find The LP's here in middle Tn.
lt

[Larry Gibson]

I'm not looking for light load info, but thanks anyway.

I wouldn't go lighter than 23 gr H110 with the RCBS 44-250-K bullet. My psi tests show that load runs a very low psi at 21- 22,000 psi, lower than the classic "Skeeter" 44 SPL Unique load with the same bullet. The cast bullet does not offer enough friction/resistence for good ignition below 23 gr H110. The same load with the 240 XTP does and gives 9,000+ more psi. I sugest the 23 gr load for your Holiday activities. Not a good load but a passable one. Use WLP or 350 magnum primers BTW.

Larry Gibson

[I'll Make Mine]

If you don't want flamethrowers, H110 is the wrong powder; in my experience with .357 Magnum, the huge muzzle flash is one of the defining characteristics of full power loads with this powder. That said, it's been one of my favorites with j-words in that cartridge (never owned or shot a .44 Magnum, never mind loaded for one) because it gives the highest velocity within maximum pressure of any listed powders in the manuals I've worked from (25-30 years old now, haven't loaded in a while), while still delivering good accuracy.

I don't know that H110 would be as good with cast boolits, however; it's not as clean burning or consistent if you cut it back, and unless you have a boolit that's already shown to be a very good fit for your revolver, you'll probably have to walk the line between inconsistent velocity (= poor accuracy) and leading, assuming they don't overlap by several grains...

[luvtn]

Very Interesting. Unless I am blind I don't see the flames, though lots of smoke. I find it is cleaner than 2400, which I shoot the most of. Went to the 296 cause I too was low on 2400, and just happened to have an unopened bottle of 296. It is good stuff.
lt

[GaryN]

If it were me loading for my guns, I would start with 24 grs. Mine max out at about 25.5. But I'm talking about my guns. They are standard Redhawk and super blackhawk Rugers. I have probably shot about 40 lbs. of H110 over the years. Even bought a box in the 70's that had a 20 lb. bag inside. I've never had a bad round with it. But I don't try to load it light either.

[bobthenailer]

Funny ive gotten along fine over the years never using 2400 powder ,
My reccomendation for a load would be 20.0 grs of 296/H110 with mag primers! I know of alot of people who have used this load with excellent results.

[725]

23 gr of H110 with a 240 gr boolit is alot of fun in my Ruger. As mentioned above, H110 is one of the powders that should never be reduced. Use the starting loads and you'll have plenty of power.

[ShooterAZ]

I loaded up with 23 gr. I'm looking forward to getting out and making some noise today(and hitting some targets).

[Dale53]

I never liked 2400 in my handguns. Too much debris left. I have used H110/296/slow lot of WC820 for many, many years. My standard practice load is A 250 GR home cast Keith and 23.0 grs. My hunting load is 24.0 grs. I have taken a number of deer and have over 10,000 rounds of these loads through my early Model 29, and a lesser amount through my Ruger SBH and Ruger Red Hawk.

The lighter load will shoot lengthwise through a large whitetail deer at 100 yards.

If you are going to use H110/296 you MUST have sufficient neck tension as well as a good crimp. No amount of crimp will substitute for ceck tension. Your neck expander needs to be several thousandths smaller than your bullet. Otherwise, I have never had a problem with these powders. They measure like water and are very consistent.

FWIW
Dale53

[fecmech]

Back when I shot Silhouette my standard load was 25/296/Lyman 429421/ Rem LP primer. The load chrono'd a little over 1300 fps from a 7.5" Ruger SBH and I went through a number of 8 lb. kegs of 296 at the time. My "macho" days are over now, when I shoot the .44 it's with 200 gr bullets and BE!

[Wally]

Back when I shot Silhouette my standard load was 25/296/Lyman 429421/ Rem LP primer. The load chrono'd a little over 1300 fps from a 7.5" Ruger SBH and I went through a number of 8 lb. kegs of 296 at the time. My "macho" days are over now, when I shoot the .44 it's with 200 gr bullets and BE!

Amen...

Nothing like using 8.0 grains of Bullseye with a 220 Grain SWC bullet in the .44 Magnum..accurate and enjoyable. No doubt that for many with age comes wisedom.

[luvtn]

I never liked 2400 in my handguns. Too much debris left. I have used H110/296/slow lot of WC820 for many, many years. My standard practice load is A 250 GR home cast Keith and 23.0 grs. My hunting load is 24.0 grs. I have taken a number of deer and have over 10,000 rounds of these loads through my early Model 29, and a lesser amount through my Ruger SBH and Ruger Red Hawk.

The lighter load will shoot lengthwise through a large whitetail deer at 100 yards.

If you are going to use H110/296 you MUST have sufficient neck tension as well as a good crimp. No amount of crimp will substitute for ceck tension. Your neck expander needs to be several thousandths smaller than your bullet. Otherwise, I have never had a problem with these powders. They measure like water and are very consistent.

FWIW
Dale53
I need you to elaborate on "neck tension several thousands smaller than your bullet." Doesn't this cause shaving of the lead? How do you adjust neck tension? I bell enough to not shave lead and then crimp enough to not get setback.
lt

[Dale53]

luvtn;
Most modern sizing dies size the brass plenty. However, if the expander stem is too big in diameter, then there won't be enough neck tension to temporarily hold the bullet in place until pressure builds enough to properly burn slow burning powders.

In my particular case, my .44 Magnum bullets are sized at .430" (that fits my .44 Special and .44 Magnum handguns). When an expander stem is run into a sized brass case, the case springs back
.001" or so under the size of the expander stem. Knowing the bullet size needed, then the expander stem needs to be several thousandths smaller than bullet size so that there is at least .003"-.004" neck tension. Some say more, but I have had good results with an expander stem at this measurement. Now, obviously, there is an amount that exceeded will reduce the size of the bullet and lead to other problems. Further, it is understood that the bullets need to at least be as hard as WW's (Elmer Keith's bullets were 16/1 lead/tin and that works well but uses lots of expensive tin these days). My standard bullet alloy is WW's+2% tin and you will get NO argument from me if you prefer harder for magnum loads. I have used as hard as WW's/Linotype 5/1 with good results in the past. Lyman #2 is also a good workable alloy but is expensive. I'm just illustrating here, that there are several acceptable alloys to get the job done. However, too soft will not give good results because the tight case can reduce the diameter of a soft bullet.

My Dillon powder measure has a small enough powder through expander to give me what I need.

The first use I tried to make of H110 (back in the day) was with the .44 Special. I had a set of steel dies probably made in the early fifties. The dies worked perfectly well with light and medium loads but when I loaded up my first Keith level loads with H110 I stuck a bullet in the barrel. I cleared the barrel and it did it again. Magnum primers gave little success. I checked the dimensions and discovered that the sizing die wasn't sizing the case small enough to give adequate neck tension. Money was real tight in those days but that was sure an incentive enough to get a set of RCBS carbide dies. They worked perfectly and I haven't had a squibb load since (many thousands of loads later).

Elmer Keith and others over the years have recommended proper case neck tension. Brian Pearce, some time ago, also went into some detail. All of these people mirrored my personal experience.

Belling a case mouth is an entirely separate issue and is, of course, necessary with all cast bullets. I bell just enough to sit the bullet in the case mouth about 1/16". It is a balancing act. Too much bell and you shorten the case life (increases the incidence of case mouth splits). Too little bell and you shave lead. The "Golden Mean" is "just enough"...

FWIW
Dale53

[randyrat]

Here is a good article on "Thoughts on improving Revolver loads" down the page a ways it talks about case/bullet tension tension.
http://www.levergun.com/articles/thoughts.htm

I go back and forth between H110/2400/Unique. 22-24 grains H110 for hunting white tails-2400 for some targets and unique for fun target. I use 10 grs of Unique for just about any boolit I have in the 44 mag

[craig61a]

I use N110...

[TCLouis]

I would never recommend a load, but 23.5 grains of H110 worked for me when I had some.

Not the same as a nice sedate Bullseye, Red dot, or Unique load.

[rexherring]

My old Lyman book shows 22 grs with a 240 jacketed as a factory duplication load. Lead is more slippery so I don't see a problem. I've loaded quite a few with that load and they shoot fine with no pressure problems and I use mag primers.

[mdi]

All of the info posted was quoted from the Lyman book...I would trust it if it wasn't all over the place! I think I'll try 50 with 22 grains and see how they shoot. Bullet fit it is not an issue...I just need a reasonable place to start!

Thanks...Shooter:Fire:

All over the place? 429421 24.0 gr of H110 and 429244 21.8 is only two loads. Since your bullet is a bit heavier than those listed just go with 21.8...

[Iron Mike Golf]

Don't forget, the 429244 is a Gas Check boolit. That copper makes a difference.

[lwknight]

The simple answer:
Neck tension is of very little consequence. The sectional density of the bullet is of major consequence.
Fill the case but do not compress the load. This is a very forgiving powder. 80-100 Percent is good. Hot primers are preferable. Some primers are hot like Winchester. The magnum primers are thicker and a little harder so if you have a light hammer you can use Winchester non magnum primers.

All the common best loads for .357 mag , 41 mag and 44 mag all have 2 things in common. The powder column is exactly the same and the bullets are the same column.
The .357 mag @ 158 grains
The 41 mag @ 215 grains
and the 44 mag @240 grains.
Heavier bullets are OK but I have had bad luck with lighter bullets because the powder is so slow burning. That's why you get the awe inspiring BOIOOOM , because the powder is still on fire 10' down range.

[MtGun44]

Neck tension is of substantial consequence as far as consistency and accuracy are concerned
with H110.

Bill

[lwknight]

Neck tension is of substantial consequence as far as consistency and accuracy are concerned
with H110.

Bill

I have tried it with roll crimp , taper crimp and no crimp. Neither my target or chronograph could tell any difference. Maybe its more profound with lighter bullets?

[Dale53]

I am not a ballistician nor did I play one on TV. However, I have talked to Ballisticians from Hodgdon's, Winchester, and Remington and they all agree with and understand my early problem with no neck tension.

Actually, every part of the ballistic picture is important - bullet sectional density, bullet alloy, diameter, cylinder throat diameter and barrel groove diameter. EVERY thing can be important, including choice of primer and brass thickness.

The fact that you don't have a problem could be because modern die manufacturers understand the problem and your dies are correct. All dies are not...

FWIW
Dale53

[Mal Paso]

Without a good crimp, Full House 44 Mag loads will pull the bullets on the last rounds and tie up the gun. I have shot boolits loose that had good tension but needed a heavier crimp.

[luvtn]

Dale53, Thank you for the info and link.
lt

[wantoutofca]

without a good crimp, full house 44 mag loads will pull the bullets on the last rounds and tie up the gun. I have shot boolits loose that had good tension but needed a heavier crimp.

+1
------

[lwknight]

I never meant to imply that a heavy crimp was not needed . Of course it is necessary as far as recoil goes. I just could never prove that the crimp had much to do with accuracy when heavy bullets were used.
I did not experiment regarding crimping with lighter bullets and 110 because my tests had radical results so I basically bailed on the whole idea and broke out the olde Unique.

[44man]

I never use a heavy crimp on anything. Only enough to fold to the bottom of the groove and you know the RD and Lee boolits only have chicken scratches. The .44, .454, .475 and .500 JRH are are done the same and I have run one round through two cylinders of shots.
Factory cast loads with super heavy full profile crimps only lasted two to three shots in the .454 before locking the gun.
Even the Lee 400 gr in the .475 does not move. Boolit weight has not mattered and I use 296 in all the guns.
Tests have shown crimp of any sort had no affect on accuracy but differences in case tension from case to case did, a LOT, as much as 10" between groups although if sorted, groups themselves were still very small. Just don't mix.
You first indication of trouble is when you feel a difference between cases when you seat boolits or bullets.
I can measure and sort but it would be great to have a strain gauge setup.
Don't sluff off case tension, it is as important as run out.
You may not need a lot of tension but it must be even from one piece of brass to the other. And THAT my friends is the hardest part.
Brand new brass has shown the widest variation. Seems as if a little work hardening evens out tension so you might waste a lot of shots working loads with new brass.
BR shooters test brass and only use those cases for a whole shoot that shoot to the same place. They are smarter then most of us and have the ability to adjust loads for conditions, they load right at the bench using the same brass. They have my full respect.

[44man]

Felix understands and is well versed in BR.
Larry does a lot of pressure testing and if he could come up with a strain gauge setup to measure low seating pressures on the press, he could make some money. Maybe an adapted shell holder.
Boolit pull does NOT have to be measured, only seating pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry does a lot of pressure testing and if he could come up with a strain gauge setup to measure low seating pressures on the press, he could make some money.

I'm sure that could be done as there are many different types of strain gauges used in industry. Will have to research it when I can, can't right now though due to moving situation.

A simple method to get lbs or oz's of pressure needed would be to attach a receptical to the end of the press handle. Let the bullet rest against the seat stem w/o seating and pour shot into the receptical until it's weight seats the bullet. Weigh the shot needed to seat the bullet.

If you are good at math and know the compound leverage of the press you can convert the weight to lbs or oz's of pressure needed to seat the bullet. Or you can use the weight as a comparison to othe weights needed for seating other bullets, other diameter of bullets, other makes of cases, cases sized with different dies or expanders used, etc ad nauseum..........if anyone attempts this test I suggest a measurement test string of 7+ to get statistical assurance.

Larry Gibson

[brghp]

Hi:

My experience with the 245-250 gr Keith bullet and H110 has been good starting at 23.0 gr and maxing out at 24.0 gr. While there may be an additional 0.5 gr - 1.0 gr and still be OK on pressure, I won't push my 1980 S&W 29.