Full power rifle loads with cast boolits?

[I'll Make Mine]

I've got a Mosin Nagant 91/30 (1943 Izhevsk production, run of the arsenal); bore slugged at .300/.313, 9.5 inch twist, and is in good condition. It shoots well with surplus ammunition, and appears capable of MoA once I get the receiver shimmed, barrel single-point floated, and upgrade the sights so I don't have to hold off.

For ordinary range days, I'm likely to continue to shoot surplus, because I can buy it cheaper than loading my own (even with casting my boolits) and I don't mind the cleanup ritual required after shooting corrosive primers.

For hunting whitetail, however (probably next year, since I'm pretty sure I'll still be stuck with Prvi Partizan this fall), I'd like to work up a full power cast boolit load that comes close to the original ballistics. I've been shooting "light ball", 147 grain steel core FMJ at what ought to be about 2965 ft/s, though I don't have any objection to going up in bullet weight ("heavy ball" for this rifle is 174 grain at 2690, as I recall) -- all the North Carolina game lands within a couple hours drive (and where rifles are allowed, as opposed to shotguns) are wooded, and I don't have any expectation of having to raise the rear sight for shots longer than 200 meters, so I don't need to match the bullet drop characteristics (within reason).

From decades of reading, it looks as if I'll need to use gas checked boolits or paper patch to get 2600+ without leading. My budget strongly militates toward paper patch, as I'll be using a homemade push-through boolit sizer and doubt I can reliably seat gas checks with it (even if I could get them in .314 and was willing to spend the money).

I'm starting from zero on molds and equipment, though I'll probably go with Lee pot and molds for budget reasons. I understand that if I paper patch, I'll need a boolit that's a bit smaller than groove size to allow the paper to build up to seal diameter -- which, in my case, puts me in the lush, dense population of .310-.311 bullets intended for .308, .30-06, and so forth, where two wraps of .003 or .004 thick paper will put me at .314-.318, depending on exact details.

Am I correct in understanding that pure lead or around 2% added tin for better pouring will work well in paper patch, even above 2600 ft/s? Size before or after patching? Any suggestions for which (preferably) Lee molds will work well at these specs (145-180 grain, or heavier/slower if that's a better idea, .308-.310)? Suggested powders?

[leadman]

I have a load with the 314299 boolit in my 30-06 that is in the range you are looking for. The boolit is just over 200 grs and gas checked. The powder is IMR 4350.
It is good for about 5 shots then the bore needs a brush thru it. Very stout recoil!

I think for deer you could get by with less velocity and still take any deer at reasonable range.
There is a paper patch section here that you can browse.

[JeffinNZ]

I shoot heat treated WW boolits in my .303 Brits to GI spec. 2000fps with a 220gr to duplicate the Mk VI loading and 2400fps with a 178gr to duplicate Mk VII loading. Powder is H4350 in suitable doses. No leading whatsoever.

[Jack Stanley]

Haven't tried the paper patching route yet but I have slung a 314299 from an aught six case at a chronographed 2300 feet per second . Normally this bullet gets thrown in its as cast shape , should I want it to penetrate venison armour . I will make a small batch with the nose flattened in my sizer . Two hundred grain bullet at just over twenty-three hundred will leave an "inny and outy" on any critter in my area ... including the neighbors cattle .

I'm pretty sure your could replicate that performance with the long Russian case .
For what it's worth the thirty caliber gas checks I use get sized on bullets up to .314" ..... at least that is as high as I've tried them .

Jack

[pdawg_shooter]

Paper patching is the way to go. Jacketed velocity with jacketed accuracy is not that hard to get. NO leading because the lead never touches the bore. The only thing you will need to clean out is the powder fouling from the LAST shot. The paper cleans the bore from the previous shot. No casting around for the perfect lube, most anything will do. No buying gas checks, the paper does the same job. The paper polishes the bore better than hand lapping. Whats not to like?

[Wayne Smith]

If you can make your own sizer dies can you make a smooth sided boolit mold? For paper patching that is typically your best design. There are a number of threads here on mold making, and the smooth sided is the easiest, simply a plunge with a round nose cutter.

Something to think on, anyway.

[pdawg_shooter]

If you can make your own sizer dies can you make a smooth sided boolit mold? For paper patching that is typically your best design. There are a number of threads here on mold making, and the smooth sided is the easiest, simply a plunge with a round nose cutter.

Something to think on, anyway.

I have had, and sold, a number of smooth sided bullet molds. I have way better luck with grooved bullets sized to fit. The grooves gives a place for the paper to grip and holds a bit more lube.

[geargnasher]

I too have had limited success with smooth-sided, small bore boolits. Above certain launch pressure the patch wads up and comes off in the throat.

Now, for hunting with cast boolits. First the Mosin. It will take a lifetime to learn how to shoot gas checked boolits accurately at much above 1900 fps in that rifle, much less 2600. You can load to jacketed velocity and accuracy with a paper-jacketed lead boolit that is suitably composed for hunting, but I would only do so for fun or for extending the range, this is a lot of work. Lead boolits don't function the same way copper jacketed ones do on game, and often work best at slower speeds, like 2K fps +/-. If you start using paper jackets your alloy choice becomes critical for hunting performance.

Gear

[I'll Make Mine]

If you can make your own sizer dies can you make a smooth sided boolit mold? For paper patching that is typically your best design. There are a number of threads here on mold making, and the smooth sided is the easiest, simply a plunge with a round nose cutter.

Something to think on, anyway.

I've read, and watched a number of videos on making molds, and might well attempt that. My lathe (Chinese 7x12) is just about big enough to swing a two-cavity block, and I've seen a nifty method to ensure the mold returns to center after taking it off the lathe for measurement. Nothing difficult about making a smooth-sided cavity, but if I make one I'll probably put a couple lube grooves in it -- not only will that work better for shooting the boolits without the paper (i.e. dual purpose mold), but I agree that paper is likely to stay on in the throat better if there's something to grip it.


Now, for hunting with cast boolits. First the Mosin. It will take a lifetime to learn how to shoot gas checked boolits accurately at much above 1900 fps in that rifle, much less 2600. You can load to jacketed velocity and accuracy with a paper-jacketed lead boolit that is suitably composed for hunting, but I would only do so for fun or for extending the range, this is a lot of work. Lead boolits don't function the same way copper jacketed ones do on game, and often work best at slower speeds, like 2K fps +/-. If you start using paper jackets your alloy choice becomes critical for hunting performance.

Okay, so I'm better sticking with j-word projectiles for hunting? I guess I can live with that, since a box of 100 pills and twenty to forty cases will serve for load development, sighting in, and actual hunts for several years (even assuming I actually see a buck -- I'm 0 for 5 tries on rabbits from last season, but rabbit season runs during and after deer season here and most folks seem to hunt rabbits with a pack of beagles). I'd love to make my own, but swaging dies are beyond my ability to make on my lathe (at least for now -- especially since I've never handled, much less operated a set) and I don't think my ancient slide-bar press (I bought it used in 1981) would stand up to even light duty swaging in any case -- and spending $800 to $1200 for press, dies, and so forth to save money on bullets, so as to save money on meat, seems like something best left to those who can afford to shoot every weekend.

I'll still need either gas checks or paper patches, though, even to get to 2000 ft/s, and slower than that (especially with the higher drag shapes of most boolits compared to boattail FMJ) I couldn't sight in at 100 yards without being 6-8 inches high at 50 and a foot or more low at 200 -- possible to compensate with the battle sight, I suppose, but I'd have to carry a ballistic table and rangefinder even for the North Carolina woods.

There's some disagreement here, though -- some think paper patch is the cat's pajamas, and others seem to think I should stick with factory components. I'm getting "yes, you can shoot 2700 ft/s with paper patched lead" and "you'll be at it forever learning how", along with "You can load to jacketed velocity and accuracy with a paper-jacketed lead boolit ... but I would only do so for fun or for extending the range, this is a lot of work" as well as what seems a suggestion that the Mosin isn't a good choice for gas checked boolits (twist too fast, or some assumption about bore condition?). Is paper patching really a great deal of additional work beyond the process of converting used wheel weights into boolits? It doesn't look that bad from what I've read.

[I'll Make Mine]

Haven't tried the paper patching route yet but I have slung a 314299 from an aught six case at a chronographed 2300 feet per second .

<snip>

I'm pretty sure your could replicate that performance with the long Russian case .
For what it's worth the thirty caliber gas checks I use get sized on bullets up to .314" ..... at least that is as high as I've tried them .

The 7.62x54r is sometimes called the "Russian .30-06" but the performance is actually closer to 7.62x51 NATO or .308 -- case capacity is between the two, almost the same as .303 British; I doubt I could throw a 200 grain slug at 2300 without trouble (though it wouldn't be too much slower, probably 2150 or 2200 with the right powder). Good to know gas checks will accommodate .314, as I'll be shooting .314 or .315 for my groove size, unless it turns out the throat is oversize (definitely possible, since this is a WWII production rifle but it shoots surplus well enough it's probably not cavernous). Gas checks are surely the easier route compared to paper patch (especially if I buy the checks), but they'll add almost 50% to the cost of the boolits, given I can get wheel weights for $35 a bucket (did I mention I'm on a budget so tight you could argue I really can't afford to shoot at all?).

[pdawg_shooter]

The PP cast bullets I have used on game have preformed as well as any jacketed I have used. The key is to match your alloy the the velocity and the game you are hunting.

[Nobade]

Last weekend I was shooting paper patched Ranch Dog 165gr. boolits in my Mosin 91/30 somewhere around 2200 fps with extremely good accuracy using WC860 powder that runs about $4.75/lb. Boolits were air cooled wheelweights, which will work fine on game. The only custom thing needed was a .303" sizing die, and I made that. It doesn't get much cheaper than that for shooting rifles. It can be done.

The Lee 200gr. 30 cal. boolit also works very well in the Mosin, if it is patched. It would have more penetration and a better BC than the 165gr. RD, but I like the big flat nose on the 165 if I wanted to kill things.

Oh make sure to re-read what Geargnasher said. Not a lifetime to learn how to paper patch, but rather a lifetime to figure out how to get naked, gaschecked boolits to shoot accurately at high speed. Patching is easy compared to that.

[pdawg_shooter]

Patching makes life simple. Yes it is labor intensive, but good things in life are worth working for. I looked at the price of a box of 170gr FN Sierras and at 25 bucks a hundred, I could not do 1/4 the shooting I now do. As Nobade said, you can mess around for years finding the right bullet, alloy, gas check, lube, and powder/primer to get where you want to be. Or, paper patch and spend that time hunting. I much prefer to go hunting myself.

[milkman]

I'll Make Mine
I think you are being a little too hard on ballistics of flat nose boolits. I am shooting a 285g .35 cal boolit at slightly less than 1800 fps. Zeroed at 100 it's 1 1/2" high at 50 and 2 1/2" low at 150. That is with a 70% meplate.

I know where you are coming from with the expenses. If you don't want to shoot over 1800 fps and don't expect MOA accuracy, then it is pretty easy. You can use almost any booit style and small amounts of fast powder, inexpensive tools and get decent, usable results. Beyond that it gets complicated and expensive very quickly.

Milkman

[Moonie]

Where in NC are you, perhaps someone here lives near you and can help guide you on your journey.

[geargnasher]

Okay, so I'm better sticking with j-word projectiles for hunting? Who said that? Millions of deer steaks have been put on dinner plates with medium-hardness cast boolits fired at less than 2K FPS. I guess I can live with that,

I'll still need either gas checks or paper patches, though, even to get to 2000 ft/s, and slower than that (especially with the higher drag shapes of most boolits compared to boattail FMJ) I couldn't sight in at 100 yards without being 6-8 inches high at 50 and a foot or more low at 200 -- possible to compensate with the battle sight, I suppose, but I'd have to carry a ballistic table and rangefinder even for the North Carolina woods. Cast boolits at 16-1800 FPS muzzle velocity are quite effective out to 200 yards for hunting whitetails. Sounds to me like you could benefit from a LOT of range time with inexpensive cast, gas-checked boolits so you can learn how SHOOT rather than trying to build a load that doesn't drop. You'll find that it's more fun to learn how to shoot a boolit that drops more anyway.

There's some disagreement here, though -- some think paper patch is the cat's pajamas, and others seem to think I should stick with factory components. I'm getting "yes, you can shoot 2700 ft/s with paper patched lead" and "you'll be at it forever learning how", along with "You can load to jacketed velocity and accuracy with a paper-jacketed lead boolit ... but I would only do so for fun or for extending the range, this is a lot of work" as well as what seems a suggestion that the Mosin isn't a good choice for gas checked boolits (twist too fast, or some assumption about bore condition?). Is paper patching really a great deal of additional work beyond the process of converting used wheel weights into boolits? It doesn't look that bad from what I've read.

You're just going to have to try some stuff. Paper jackets are and art form within the art of casting. If you don't like tedious, and don't like a lot of experimentation, it isn't for you. But it works well. Gas-checked greasers will serve you very well to get started, and also in the field. I've shot buckets of WW out of rusty old Mosins and killed a few deer with them, they're good guns and shoot cast well, but don't expect to stuff a lead boolit in there and shoot it at 2600 fps and still hit the berm. Learning how to do that will take you a very long time. Paper jackets are a much easier way to shoot accurately at high velocity, but I think you should also get the notion out of your head that you can't hunt with a "plinker" load in that rifle. A .30-caliber wheel weight boolit at 1800 fps is as deadly, if not more so, than a jacketed one at 2600.

Gear

[Freightman]

Pistol hunters use .357, 44 mag to good advantage hunting deer or whatever with 1100fps to1500 fps give or take. Why then wouldn't a 200gr boolit with 1800-1900fps be just as good. How many thousand deer have been killed with a 30-30 with a lead boolit or jacketed going 2000-2100 fps with a much lighter boolit than 200gr. Shot placement is the key. I know "deer hunters" who shot once a year, the day they shoot there deer, never clean the rifle and they do not worry in the least about what load to use. With you practicing and expearmenting you should be a much better hunter and not need the magnum speeds. Gear is right lead will kill at lower speeds just ask the buffalo.

[Larry Gibson]

I'll Make Mine

With regular cast bullets the RPM above 1900 fps will make maintaining accuracy difficult, even for hunting purposes. With Lovern type Lymans you can push the velocity/RPM a little higher and maintain hunting accuracy. You could also spend a lot more $s on a custom mould (probably more than you paid for the rifle) to get a bullet to "fit" the throat perfectly. Then you could learn the proper loading technique (it doesn't take a lifetime and there's nothing secret or magical about doing it) to push it up into the probably 2300 fps range before accuracy goes south.

Unless you PP getting factory/milsurp ballistics out of a regular GC'd greased cast bullet out of a common designed readily available mould with accuracy in the 2600 - 2800+ fps range of the 7.62x54R cartridge capability is probably not in the cards. I think that is waht everyone else has been telling you here.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Larry, could you ellaborate some on your comment about the Loverin-type boolits enabling a little more accurate speed? My results have been exactly the opposite.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

I will not say you can't run cast bullets at 2,600 fps. I will say you are not likely to do it without years of knowledge and experience under your belt. In the end, you will most likely give up and go back to jacketed bullets which is probably the best idea.

If you want to run cast bullets at full factory speeds, get a Winchester made 30-30 or better yet a Winchester made 32 Win. Special. It isn't rocket science to run these rifles at full factory speeds.

Larry will tell you it is because of the slower rpms in the 1-12 and 1-16 barrels. I don't know if it is the higher rpm by themselves or the pressure on the bullets by the lands and grooves at higher rpm, but however it is explained it is a fact that slower twist barrels will allow better accuracy at higher velocities than slower twist barrel. We have known this for at least 150 years.

2,600 fps out of a Mosin? Not likely to happen.

[MT Chambers]

Some calibers are most cast friendly, like the .45/70, .44 Mag., even cals. like the russian and the .303, some of these you can actually push cast bullets faster then jacketed, without loosing accuracy and there's more knockdown as well.

[Char-Gar]

The 45-70 and the 44-40 both started life as black powder cartridges with slow twist barrel. Marlin keep the very slow 44-40 twist for it's 44 magnum rifles. It is quite easy to push a 45-70 cast bullet faster that the lower velocity factory ammo with accuracy. You can keep going until you have all the recoil you want or the retina in your eye detatches, whichever comes first. Yes, I knew a guy who detached a retina with a hot 45-70 load.

The various 30 caliber military rifles (303 British, 7.64 Russian, 30-06 etc) were designed for smokless powder and have much faster twist barrels.

To tell a man he can push a cast bullet faster than factory/military ammo without loosing accuracy in a Mosin, is to send the man on a fools errand, on which there is very little chance of sucess and a great chance of frustration and failure.

I am starting to think I have been on this board to darn long.

[onceabull]

Char-gar:When I see "facts" such as a 30 cal. wheel weight bullet @1800 FPS(303 savage) is "just as deadly,if not more so,than a 30 caliber jacketed bullet at 2600 fps(30-06,Nosler partition) I'm quite certain I must now know all there is to know. Onceabull

[BruceB]

It's quite practical to run factory-level loads with cast bullets in SOME rifles.

I was fortunate, in having the rifles before developing an interest in shooting cast from long guns. The secret? BIG bores and HEAVY bullets. Of course, there's a price to pay.... in this case, recoil that's identical to that derived from the factory load.

My prime example is the .404 Jeffery. Kynoch 400-grain factory loads run at 2125 fps, a velocity easily reached with the NEI 421-390 cast bullet WITHOUT paper-patching or other special techniques. That performance has worked admirably for over 100 years on heavy African game (elephant, rhino, buffalo etc), and it will surely work on anything in North America. It takes around eighty grains or so of powder, but the gas pedal is still a LONG way from the floor. Accuracy is fine at around 1"-1.5" for five at 100 yards. With one of my cast softpoints, it's a prime big-game round.

The same can be said for the .416 Rigby.... my bullet for this is the RCBS 365-grain flatpoint and it offers the same or better performance than the .404's 400. I have run the .416 RCBS to 2600 fps, but such is simply not needed here.

For a dedicated cast-bullet hunting rifle, I think the .416 Taylor would be a sterling choice, offering easy access to components and a simple conversion to zillions of sporters. Anything hit with it will surely feel the effect, and the trajectory at over 2000 fps is very usable to at least 200 yards.

[I'll Make Mine]

Okay, I misunderstood Geargnasher to some extent, and perhaps I was after an unattainable result in the first place. As noted, even a 150 grain lead at 2000 or so ft/s is adequate for deer (heck, the 158 grain soft points in my .357, at around 1500 with the hottest loads, will do that job if you can get close enough to hit where you need to). I was thinking more along the lines of a bullet that would shoot close to the same trajectory as my surplus light ball -- and that's clearly not going to happen with the molds I've seen in .30 caliber. So, I need to, er, bite the bullet and adjust to the fact I'm going to shoot more like 2000-2200, even with paper patch, if I cast my own. I can adjust my sights and (since my only accessible range quits at 100 yards) do some calculation to determine how to compensate range with the battle sight, then put 'em back when hunting season is over and it's time to burn surplus ammo at the range again.

So, I'm looking at the 170, 180, and 200 grain .30 cal Lee molds, planning to size them down to about .302 or .303 and paper patch them (I'll try Japanese tissue, since I have a bunch of it around from building model airplanes, and report the results over in the paper patch area). One potential advantage here -- a 170 grain boolit at 2000 ft/s should have significantly less recoil than the 147 grain at 2965, and might be quieter if I use powders in the faster range; heck, even 200 grains at 2000 shouldn't kick any more than light ball.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, could you ellaborate some on your comment about the Loverin-type boolits enabling a little more accurate speed? My results have been exactly the opposite.

Gear

If cast of th correct alloy, sized correctly and lubed correctly so they fit in the longer throats of many milsurp chambers (a milsurp is the subject of this thread) with the GC at the base of the case neck and the bullet well fit (supported) up into the throat close to the lands.

The 266455 is an excellent example in for use in many 6.5 milsurps. The longer 140+ gr Loverns many times don't work because the GC must be seated below the case neck. I'm able to load to 2100+ fps with it in the 6.5 Swede using 45 2.1s buffer loading technique and maintain excellent accuracy at that HV/RPM. The custom 6.5 Kurtz bullet designed and used by 45 2.1 and used effectively also at HV/RPM in the 6.5 Swede and other 6.5s is essentially a Lovern design also.

I've a 311466 Lovern that drops a 160+ gr bullet at .313 - .314. It is excellent in many .31 cals such as the 7.62x54R (subject cartridge of this thread), the .303, many 30-40s, 7.65 Argentines and 7.7 japs. With it I am able to get excellent accuracy up into the 2100 - 2300 fps range, that is a HV/RPM for the twist rates of most of those milsurps.

I've also a 311466U that drops right at .311. I am able to do the same 2100 - 2300 in many .30 cal milsurps and conventional '06s with excellent accuracy. In a 12" .308W I can get the same excellent accuracy up into the 2400 fps ange. In my 14" twist Palma .308W I push that bullet at 2600+ fps with 10 shot 1.5 moa accuracy to 300 yards (farthest tested so far).

I also find the 225642 Lovern style to be the best HV/RPM .223 bullet (haven't tried the MH 22 NATO bullet yet). Also I have an original RCBS Lovern 168 gr 7mm bullet that does really well in my 7x57 M95 Mauser. Haven't pushed the RPM threshold much with it, only to 2100 fps, but it does well with what I've done so far.

Perhaps if you'd provide more details on your "opposite results" I can help you reverse them to good results?

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

The 266469 has a decided disadvantage for me against the 266673 (both lapped larger) in my Swedes when I push the envelope, and out of a variety of boolit designs I've shot in various .30-calibers the 311466 and 311407 both have been bested considerably by some other designs that could be called "silhouette", one designed by me, one by someone else. I did quite a bit of work to most of the Loverin moulds I have/had to ensure they fit the throats exactly, and in some cases sized the nose bands to the correct taper when they cast too large.

I was just curious about this, which you just posted a little while ago:

"The bullet design preferably should be one of minimal yet sufficient lube groves. The driving bands should allow the GC to be seated flush with the base of the neck and the front drive band just off the lands. The as cast diameter should be .001 - .002 over the throat diameter at most and if there is a bore riding nose it should very closely fit the top of the lands. There should be no scraper groove. The actual nose should be short and can be round or TC’d. The GC shank should allow the uncrimped GC a snug fit and leave minimal groove above it when crimped. Von Gruffs 7mm bullet and the Eagan bullets pictured in this thread or the “Design” thread are excellent examples. The LBT 150 gr .30 cal is also and excellent design for a longer necked cases such as the ’06 as it has no bore riding nose."

I'm also trying to figure out how you got "excellent accuracy" out of a "conventional" or "milsurp" at 21-2300 FPS, which is way above the RPM threshold for those guns. You keep telling everyone that "excellent accuracy" is NOT to be found above the threshold of 140K rpm unless you go to a lot of extremes, part of which is using boolits designed like the ones you described above, which is most certainly NOT what we generally think of as a Loverin type. Maybe I misunderstood you in all of this?

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Char-gar:When I see "facts" such as a 30 cal. wheel weight bullet @1800 FPS(303 savage) is "just as deadly,if not more so,than a 30 caliber jacketed bullet at 2600 fps(30-06,Nosler partition) I'm quite certain I must now know all there is to know. Onceabull

Onceabull..such a statement is misleading without a whole pot of definitions and qualifiers. You can indeed kill game with such a cast bullet load, with excellent bullet placement at short to moderate ranges. Such a dead critter is as dead and can be. There is only dead and no deader.

The 30-06 will kill the same animal with aa more diverse shot placement at longer ranges.

It is always a mistake to make statements comparing the two different types of loads without recognizing the fact the loads are very different and work within different parameters.

There are so many thousands of folks om this board who lack the experience and knowledge to supply the context and parameters. They take this stuff in a literal way.

But you know all of this..I am just venting. I am starting to grow very weary of this place as there is so much wrong, partial and misleading information being posted. It has grown difficult to get three or more people to agree on anything. How can anything be learned or taught in such chaos.

[onceabull]

Char-gar: The fact that I have killed more than my fair share of deer with a 22 LR. (swaged bullet). never lost one,never fired twice at the same one,.does not lead me to publish as fact that the 22 LR is as deadly as the 303 Sav.,much less a 30 Cal.with MV of 2600...I do agree that dead is dead, but doubt that any one sane would select a 303 Sav to hunt Griz. while hundreds of that species have fallen to jacketed 30/06 loads.. Maybe it's in the definition of "is".... Onceabull

[Char-Gar]

Char-gar: The fact that I have killed more than my fair share of deer with a 22 LR. (swaged bullet). never lost one,never fired twice at the same one,.does not lead me to publish as fact that the 22 LR is as deadly as the 303 Sav.,much less a 30 Cal.with MV of 2600...I do agree that dead is dead, but doubt that any one sane would select a 303 Sav to hunt Griz. while hundreds of that species have fallen to jacketed 30/06 loads.. Maybe it's in the definition of "is".... Onceabull

Your point is well taken and well made.

[10x]

The 314299 works just fine on deer cast from a 8 lb ww/ 2lb pb alloy when the bullet is traveling at 1400 fps. On a Texas heart shot the bullet will travel along the spine and stop under the hide in the neck - breaking every rib on the way. In the shoulder when it hits bone it is a bang flop reaction. I have no idea of how well this bullet will work at ranges over 60 yards though....

[45 2.1]

There are so many thousands of folks om this board who lack the experience and knowledge to supply the context and parameters. They take this stuff in a literal way.

But you know all of this..I am just venting. I am starting to grow very weary of this place as there is so much wrong, partial and misleading information being posted. It has grown difficult to get three or more people to agree on anything. How can anything be learned or taught in such chaos.

+1 on a good synopsis............ But, at one time everyone thought the earth was flat and you would fall off if you got out of sight of land. Things change and evolve and some don't except that. Those that lack the experience and knowledge are directed to find out for theirselves what is real. Thats a long hard road and is the problem with how things are taught now.

[geargnasher]

Since this is the statement everyone is so freaked out about, maybe it needs some explanation: A .30-caliber wheel weight boolit at 1800 fps is as deadly, if not more so, than a jacketed one at 2600.

I don't make unqualified statements. That statement is based on over a dozen whitetail I've killed in the last few years. I quit hunting with jacketed bullets after I took my first one with a cast boolit. I used Sierra Gamekings and Matchkings both in .30 caliber, used Sierra HPs and FNs in .30-30, .30-'06, 7.62 Russian, 6.5x55, .270 Winchester, and .45/70. My experience has been that, without exception, the cast lead boolits at lower velocities kill faster at the same ranges than the jacketed ones, which just poked little holes through the game. I don't know exactly why, and won't debate the continuing and pointless arguments of what causes what to happen, but I don't intend to hunt with high-velocity jacketed bullets again. The closest I plan to get to that is with soft-core paper-jacketed boolits, where the toughness and malleability of the alloy is matched to the velocity for reliable expansion on the sort of game I hunt. One other aside, I shot a 225lb feral boar some time ago with a Lee 170-grain RFN in my .30-30. It was a classic "Texas Heart Shot" and I found the boolit stuck in a tree about 20 yards behind the boar. Field dressing involved cutting him open and winching him up by the snout so everything inside from lungs to his behind poured out in a puddle. I don't know how he could have been any more torn up by a jacketed bullet.

So, your milage can and will probably vary, but anyone who thinks slow, cast boolits aren't as effective a killing tool as high-velocity jacketed loads on North American game needs to do more hunting and less reading.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

The 266469 has a decided disadvantage for me against the 266673 (both lapped larger) in my Swedes when I push the envelope

I never got decent results with either of those bullets above 1500-1600 fps in the Swede either. It is a long "pencil" thin bullet that if seated to the lands (in all 4 of my Swedes) had the GC well below the case neck. It was too long for the Swede case/throat in my rifles. The 266469, while a Lovern design, also has a long unsupported nose. The 266673 has a long bore riding nose that is unsupported in the Swedes quite long throat. Both designs are long "pencil" thin bullets also which does not help at high RPM if there is any imbalance in the bullet. That you lapped the 266469 to a larger diameter to better fit the throat is probably where/why you met with some success.

, and out of a variety of boolit designs I've shot in various .30-calibers the 311466 and 311407 both have been bested considerably by some other designs that could be called "silhouette", one designed by me, one by someone else. I did quite a bit of work to most of the Loverin moulds I have/had to ensure they fit the throats exactly, and in some cases sized the nose bands to the correct taper when they cast too large.

I was just curious about this, which you just posted a little while ago:

"The bullet design preferably should be one of minimal yet sufficient lube groves. The driving bands should allow the GC to be seated flush with the base of the neck and the front drive band just off the lands. The as cast diameter should be .001 - .002 over the throat diameter at most and if there is a bore riding nose it should very closely fit the top of the lands. There should be no scraper groove. The actual nose should be short and can be round or TC’d. The GC shank should allow the uncrimped GC a snug fit and leave minimal groove above it when crimped. Von Gruf’s 7mm bullet and the Eagan bullets pictured in this thread or the “Design” thread are excellent examples. The LBT 150 gr .30 cal is also and excellent design for a longer necked cases such as the ’06 as it has no bore riding nose."

I'm also trying to figure out how you got "excellent accuracy" out of a "conventional" or "milsurp" at 21-2300 FPS, which is way above the RPM threshold for those guns.

1st of all you are still under the mistaken impression that the RPM threshold is a "limit" as you state "above". Let me tell you once again that the RPM threshold is not a "limit" at 120-140,000 RPM. It can be pushed up and, conversely, it can be pushed lower. That means it can be pushed to a higher RPM level before the centrifugal force adversely affects accuracy. It also means it can be pushed to a lower RPM level. Not a "limit" at 120-140,000 RPM.....got it?

Unlike some I do not claim moa or sub moa accuracy out of every rifle I shoot cast bullets out of. I use 10 shot groups at 100 AND 200 yards to establish the accuracy level of any developed load. With milsurp rifles I consider "excellent accuracy" with cast bullets to be equal to the accuracy level for which the rifle was made using the issue sights. That most often is 2-3 moa. With scopes or with aperture sights added to the milsurp you can get into the category of "best accuracy" which I consider to be 1 -2 moa, again with 10 shot groups at both 100 and 200 yards. The 200 yard groups will show the load is over the RPM threshold if there is non linear group dispersion between the 100 yard group size and the 200 yard group size. If the group dispersion is linear then the load has not exceeded the RPM threshold.

I pushed the RPM threshold up to 21-2300 fps in some milsurps (ever bother to read my own 6.5 Swede test thread and see the accuracy I got with a 266455, a GB3 Lovern style and even starmetal's Lovern style Kurtz bullets designed by 45 2.1?) I pushed the RPM threshold up in milsurps with the Lovern style bullets mentioned. That doesn't mean the RPM threshold doesn't exist because it was still there, just at a higher RPM is all. When I went over that higher RPM threshold level the accuracy went south.

You keep telling everyone that "excellent accuracy" is NOT to be found above the threshold of 140K rpm unless you go to a lot of extremes, part of which is using boolits designed like the ones you described above, which is most certainly NOT what we generally think of as a Loverin type. Maybe I misunderstood you in all of this?

Obviously you have misunderstood me in all of this. A Lovern style in a milsurp can be used to push the RPM threshold up above the 120-140,000 RPM level if the bullet fits the case neck with the GC still in the neck and it fits the throat to the lands. Also, as mentioned, the nose needs to be short, the 266469 has a very long unsupported nose. The 266455 does not, the 3GB 6.5 bullet does not and the 45 2.1 designed Kurtz 6.5 bullet does not. Thos all fit the case and throat perfectly to the lands in the 6.5 Swede also among other reasons they do so well at HV/RPM.

You took one item out of context (above quote) and failed to consider the other things necessary to push the RPM threshold up with any cast bullet. Why do you think we get accuracy with a 311291 at higher velocity with 4895 than with 2400? Then if we use a slower powder like RL19, 4350, etc. we can get that same accuracy at even higher velocity/RPM, why is that and what are we doing with each change to a slower burning powder?.....We are pushing the RPM threshold up is what. With each of those the accuracy will go south at a certain velocity/RPM won't it? Yet all have a different level of threshold where the centrifugal force of the RPM while the bullet is in flight will adversely affect the accuracy.

Not all that hard to understand if you look a objectively.

You may also want to reread my thread on the 311466 in the .308W with 10, 12 and 14" twist barrels. In that thread you'll see I sized the 1st and 2nd driving bands down to a snug fit in the bore with the 3rd driving band just against the lands. This kept the GC in the case neck and made a shorter bullet very comparable to Von Gruf’s 7mm bullet, the Eagan bullet and the 22 NATO 45 2.1 designed. With it that way I was able to get “best accuracy” (all rifles were scoped) of 1-2 moa accuracy at 100 and 200 yards with 10 shot groups at 2200-2300+ fps with the 10” twist, 2400+ fps with the 12” twist and 2600+ fps with the 14” twist. Above those velocity/RPM thresholds the accuracy went south with each barrel.

One last question; since you are questioning the ability of Lovern designs to shoot well at HV, or at least my ability to shoot them at HV/RPM, are you now questioning starmetal and 45 2.1’s ability to shoot the Lovern style Kurtz bullet at HV/RPM also?

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

"One last question; since you are questioning the ability of Lovern designs to shoot well at HV, or at least my ability to shoot them at HV/RPM, are you also questioning starmetal and 45 2.1’s ability to do so also?"

It's not an "abliity" thing, I'm questioning the nature of the boolit design itself. In my experience Loverins are generally very easy to get to shoot at low/medium velocity, but just don't seem to be able to take as much velocity as silhouette designs, assuming both designs truly fit the gun. I think bearing band surface has a lot to do with it, but so does rifling depth, width, and land count.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

As you can see it is obviously using the right Lovern design based on the criteria I outlined. That is also the basic criteria that has been found to work so far. It is what Von Gruf's bullet, the Eagan design, the LBT design and many of 45 2.1's designs all also have in common. Some discrepencies between some of them but the basics of the design concept are inherent in all of the successful cast bullets shot at HV/RPM so far. Those same design concepts are also found in some Lovern style bullets as mentioned.

Perhaps your problems with the Lovern designs stem from the wrong choice or in the case of the 311466 not using the basic HV/RPM loading concepts I listed on the AR thread? I wouldn't know and wouldn't fathom a guess without more specifics on what your load/rifle combination was. Suffice to say I, and others, have found the 311466 to be an excellent .30/.31 cal cast bullet in milsurps in regular and HV cast bullet loadings.

I think a correct Lovern style bullet does well at HV/RPM because it has no unsupported nose to speak of and is completely supported, if loaded correctly, from the base of the GC inside the neck to the front driving band at the lands in the long throat of most milsurps.

Larry Gibson

[onceabull]

Hell, I had killed far more than 12 adult western deer before Al Gore gave us the internet..the 22 LR example was posted to indicate that anything can be deadly if a person knows their limitations. If you can't get a 165 Nosler partition to open on broadside Lung shot Mule deer within 300 yds, I say you must using some made in china counterfeits.. Onceabull

[10x]

Char-gar:When I see "facts" such as a 30 cal. wheel weight bullet @1800 FPS(303 savage) is "just as deadly,if not more so,than a 30 caliber jacketed bullet at 2600 fps(30-06,Nosler partition) I'm quite certain I must now know all there is to know. Onceabull

Dead is dead - there are no degrees of "Dead". I have yet to loose a game animal when using cast bullets. It has always been one shot, bang, flop. Velocities have seldom been over 1500 fps and ranges have seldom been over 50 yards.
Velocity simply extends the range that one can be sure of a shot that results in a humane death for the hunted. If you do your part the animal dies - whether it be a jacketed bullet at 1800 fps or a jacketed bullet at 2750 fps.
Cast bullets have limits, one is the expansion the alloy allows. Harder alloys seem to expand less in soft tissue (if at all) Softer alloys expand well but will reduce the max velocity the bullet can be shot at without going to paper patching. A paper patched bullet is essentially a jacketed bullet until it leaves the bore.

[mac1911]

I just started shooting cast boolits this year for rifle. At first I wanted to get as close to full velocity as I could. Then I thought " I'm doings this to save $$$$" why jack up the cost with powder charges.
So far I have used ranchdog 311 mold for 3006. I have sizers for 309 310 314. Lyman mold 314299 for the mosin.
I'm loading unigue and 2400 powders. My goal is a load that is accurate @ 100 yards with mo leading.
My mosin slugs out at 301/313.
The molds where not very expensive......with handles just under 100.00 ea. My lead has been next to free. Maybe total cash out for lead is 65$/850lbs
gas checks 28.00/1000
Primers 16.50/1000 blab blab........

Maybe you should get a a few styles from a cast boolit maker (Carolina cast bullets) to see how things work out.

If you know your distance is going to be inside of 200 yards why not just developed a load capable of minute of dear for that range? I cant wait to get out and try the mosin with the powder puff loads!

[John Boy]

http://www.okshooters.com/archive/index.php/t-57971.html?

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/attachments/powder-keg/17837d1232992299-reloading-7-62x54r-need-data-img001.jpg

[303Guy]

The 7.62x54r is sometimes called the "Russian .30-06" but the performance is actually closer to 7.62x51 NATO or .308 -- case capacity is between the two, almost the same as .303 British; There's a typo in there!:roll: The 303 Brit has the same capacity as the 308 Win (before the bullet gets seated down past the shoulder). The 7.62 Russian has quite a capacity so it should do well with cast or paper patched since 303 Brit velocities are achievable at lower pressure and that's all one needs with heavier boolits. That's what I think anyway.[smilie=1: But the 7.62 Rusky has a lot in common with the Brit - oversize bore's, generous throats, lot's of history (like that has anything to do with shooting them! ;)) From what I gather, they both do well with the same sized boolits. I also gather that the 30-06 does very well with cast so that would indicate that the Rusky has good potential.

[I'll Make Mine]

There's a typo in there!:roll: The 303 Brit has the same capacity as the 308 Win (before the bullet gets seated down past the shoulder).

Yep, you're right -- went and looked them up, 7.62x54r is almost exactly between .308/.303 Brit and .30-06 for capacity, but it's a lower pressure round than the .30-06 or .308 -- a full power .30-06 will push the same bullet 200-300 ft/s faster than a maximum 7.62x54r. Further, it's more hazardous to approach maximum loads in the Russian round, because classic pressure signs won't appear until you're well above SAAMI maximum pressure of 55,000 psi (the Mosin is strong, but not as strong as a Mauser based action, say those who claim to know).

Largely moot for cast boolits anyway; there's a strong opinion around that I'm better off shooting a heavier, slower slug with cast (whether gas checked or paper patched) compared to j-word; by the time I get close to maximum pressure, I'd be pushing cast bullets (especially lighter than 180 grains) to the outer limits (hard cores and paper jackets are the only way to get close, seemingly).

As for bore sizes and such, there's a good reason the Mosin is a twin to the .303 Lee Enfield: the Tsarist Russians bought the tooling to make the original M1891 from the English, so got rifling machines set up the same way the Brits would do them a couple years later for the Lee-Enfield Mark I. This is also why all Mosins down to the last production (M1959s and Chinese examples made in the early 1970s) have English size, Whitworth profile threads on all screws in the weapon; there's enough slop in the threads that my cleaning rod's jag will accept the male threads on a new purchase bore brush (I'm working on making up an adapter from a 10-32 coupling nut to use the brush with my original cleaning rod).