Are you a fiddle fixer?

[montana_charlie]

I am not a fiddler, and I don't play one on TV...but I have an old violin from my Grandfather.

More than several years ago, the horsehair let go on the bow.
I just assumed that meant buying a replacement, but a recent chain of events led me to learn that re-hairing a bow is a commonly done thing.

Very little information exists on the internet about the actual process. Mostly, you find outfits that do the repair, and places that sell books and DVD's which describe the job.
Parts are easily found...the 'secrets' are not.

Do we have any 'luthiers' or 'archetiers' among us who might be willing to share some knowledge?
CM

[waksupi]

Charlie, I've built fiddles, mandolins, and fretless banjos over the years. I have restrung bows before, but it it a pain in the butt. You may want to contact a music store in your area, and have them do it for you. or, if you are adventurous, and want to do it yourself, I believe I have a book around telling how to do it. PM me if you want to borrow it.
One caveat. Many times, the bows are worth much more than the fiddle it is with. It is easy to damage one, and difficult to repair one.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for speaking up, waksupi...

I have restrung bows before, but it it a pain in the butt.
Besides being a pain, were you happy with the results?

if you are adventurous, and want to do it yourself, I believe I have a book around telling how to do it.
Rather than mailing your book back and forth, I would rather just ask you a question form time to time.
I did (finally) find an internet source of information, which describes the basic process and includes pictures. It answered some initial wonderings...but I have already thought of a specific or two that I will need when the time comes.

I'll ask two, now, while I have your attention...and before you get fed up.
1. What kind of wood are the wedges made of?
I lost the one from the frog when I was disassembling...and can't find it.
2. Can you give me a small amount of hide glue?
The fingerboard has seperated, and I sure don't need a pound can of the stuff.

One caveat. Many times, the bows are worth much more than the fiddle it is with. It is easy to damage one, and difficult to repair one.
If that's true in this case, I would be amazed. It's quite unremarkable, and only has the word 'Germany' impressed in the stick back behind the frog.

The instrument, itself (peering into one of the F-holes), has a tag glued to the back which says, "copy of Antonius Stradivarius, made in Checho - Slovakia" (spelled that way).
I noticed that when I was a kid, and trying to get the snake rattles out, that Grandad put in...

CM

[waksupi]

The wedges are maple. I believe I still have some hide glue around. Shoot me an address.

[DLCTEX]

We have a fiddle maker, repairer here in Wheeler, He thinks he knows a lot, but I'm no judge. If you need info that Waksupi can't provide, I can put you in touch with him or be a go between for you. DALE

[montana_charlie]

Thanks, Dale.

Waksupi, PM on it's way...thanks.
CM

[wills]

http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/0586_1lg.jpg

http://www.violinmaking.com/


http://www.violinmaking.com/list_of_chapters_bow.htm
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_plans/Building_and_repair:_Violin/Violin_Bow_Rehair_And_Repair.html



http://www.rolinmusic.com/violinbooks.html

[waksupi]

Charlie, just remembered something. I know you have a grocery store handy. Go look at the Jello section, or ask someone. Look for plain Knox gelatin. Probably under 50 cents for a box, more than enough.
This is actually pure, highly refined hide glue. Mix with hot water, until you get a syrup consistancy. A double boiler type set up is nice to keep it liquid.
Still haven't located my hide glue here, no idea where it is at the time, but may be able to locate it this weekend.

[scrapcan]

There better be a video coming forth of you playing this thing when you get it worked over. I had a good friend in college taht did this in her spare time, aswell as being a competition fiddle player. I was always amazed at how much diference a good strung bow could make in the sound of the instrument. Couple that with could strings and a really amazing difference can be realized.

Good luck and keep posting on your progress. Pictures would be good also.

[shooter2]

If you do not know your instruments, or bows, I would suggest you first contact a professional. As Ric pointed out a good bow is worth real $$$. $10K and up. A good violin is worth a lot more. This is a time/place where you do not want to screw something up. JMHO...

[MT Gianni]

I read an article on the fact that the best fiddle/violin bows come from a wood in the brazilian rain forest that is getting harder to find with increased civilization. $3,500 should not surprise you if it is in fact a good one. Gianni. [Friends with a couple of Vioinist's who can't appreceate fiddle music]

[carpetman]

I think hide glue and work is the old fashioned way of getting new horse hair on a bow. I'd get a bottle of Rogaine and see if it will grow new hair. But don't get the Rogaine near ****** or you will have a bow that looks like Don King.

[montana_charlie]

http://www.violinmaking.com/
http://www.violinmaking.com/list_of_chapters_bow.htm
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_plans/Building_and_repair:_Violin/Violin_Bow_Rehair_And_Repair.html
http://www.rolinmusic.com/violinbooks.html
Thanks for the links, wills. They are similar to the ones I found before starting the thread.

More recently, I found this one... http://www.burnsrepair.com/index_010.htm .
It leaves only a few questions unanswered, but I bet waksupi can fill in the blanks.



There better be a video coming forth of you playing this thing when you get it worked over.
As stated, I'm no fiddle player. I didn't even toy with this one (very much) before the bow went south. If I post a link to a video of me playing, don't be surprised if I look remarkably like Charlie Daniels...


[Friends with a couple of Vioinist's who can't appreceate fiddle music]
I posted a similar request for information on a different forum, and seem to have started an argument over what makes the difference between a violin and a fiddle. Since they are the same physically, I got to thinking it might depend on the bow!
If it is made with horsehair from a cowpony, you get country music. And, you get classical if the hair comes from a Lipizzaner...think?


I'd get a bottle of Rogaine and see if it will grow new hair. But don't get the Rogaine near ****** or you will have a bow that looks like Don King.
You have given me an idea. If I can find some of that stuff that Smilin' Bob sells, I'll put it in the violin if I decide to sell it. Seems like I could get more money...if it was a cello.
CM

[powderburnerr]

Charlie the difference is
a violin is played under the chin and a fiddle is played on top of your middle .
good luck on your repair ...........Dean

[medic44]

Went to trade school to learn Instrument repair before I became a paramedic. The wedges inside the frog and at the tip are maple or bass wood depending on who made them. The frog is usually Grenadilla wood from Africa on the older bows. This is the wood that they make clairinetts out of. The stick of the bow will be made of many different woods, depending on where it was made. If you use synthetic hair just send it to the local shop. Some of the advise here is right, the bow can be very valuable. I have rehaired bows but it is a PITA. If you don't know what you are doing you can ruin a good bow in a hurry.

[montana_charlie]

If you don't know what you are doing you can ruin a good bow in a hurry.
I'll grant you that without argument, medic, but primarily as a 'release' so you don't feel responsible if I 'ruin' something after following advice from you.

If a hank of horsehair gets put on too short or too long, I guess the job needs to be redone, but nothing (except for that hank of hair) is 'ruined'.

I can see how a bow could take on a warp if hair was applied which had a twist in the hank...which would ruin the stick.
Similarly, if the hair in one side of center had more tension, that could bend the stick sideways...ruining it.

So...assuming the hair is straight and even, and assuming the 'small parts' are reassembled without gouges or scratches...in what other ways can a bow be considered 'ruined'?

Your answer will provide for my 'general education'.

As to 'specific knowledge', I have a question...
When a hank of horsehair is purchased it comes with one end already tied.

Is it this end which gets installed in the frog?

CM

[carpetman]

Montana Charlie---You have to understand the basics of a fiddle. On either side you have an "S" shaped hole. Good strings are made of cat gut*. The bow is of course horse hair. So when you rub the horsehair onto the cat gut,the music comes out the S hole.

* This country needs a lot more good fiddle strings.

[carpetman]

Waksupis banjoes are nothing to fret over.

[montana_charlie]

Montana Charlie---So when you rub the horsehair onto the cat gut,the music comes out the S hole.
I noticed a similar phenomenon where I went to brand calves yesterday. I was using a borrowed bay gelding to cut calves in a large pen when one of the barn cats decided to run through the melee.

When horsehoof is pressed on cat hair, music (and other things) come out of the S-hole...but it's a short song.
CM

[Scrounger]

I noticed a similar phenomenon where I went to brand calves yesterday. I was using a borrowed bay gelding to cut calves in a large pen when one of the barn cats decided to run through the melee.

When horsehoof is pressed on cat hair, music (and other things) come out of the S-hole...but it's a short song.
CM

Ray has to love this post, he'll probably frame it and post it over his bed.

[waksupi]

The main problem that seems to arise, is the end of the bow breaking.That little curved piece, doesn't have a lot of strength going for it! Then, the ivory slide on the frog seems to break easily, as does the miters it rides in. There can also be enlarging of the slide hole, if things are screwed too tight.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for that.

I think I have a handle on the 'screwed too tight' possibility, as it is one of the things I have already been wondering how to prevent.
When I get around to ordering hair, I have already decided to get two hanks.
Then, if the finished length turns out wrong for the normal frog adjustment range...I'll have a do-over available.

As for breakage...well I've always intended to be watchful for anything that doesn't seem to fit as it did during disassembly, and will even count the hairs in the hank before starting.

I think the trickiest part will be carving a new wedge for the frog. The original did a disappearing act when it came out...and has remained 'disappeared' in spite of careful searching.
CM

[medic44]

Charlie the main thing is to get the wedges out w/o damage to the bow. Yoo want thehair long enough that it is floppy when the frog is adjusted as short as possible. As the bow is used the hair will stretch. When you have the bow haired.tighten and loosen it several times then tap the stick on the palm of your hand. This will show you some hairs that are longer than the rest. Gently pass this over a candle flame. This will tighten the looose hairs. You may have to clip a few. Do this at the frog and the tip. I know this next thing sounds weird but there is a paticular bug that likes to eat horse hair. They will cut each hair in the middle. The easiest way to stop them is with a small bag of cedar chips kept in the instrument case.

[montana_charlie]

Wow, medic! That's informative.
The comments on hair tension go along with what I was generally thinking, but are more specific than my guesses. The candle trick is 'new stuff' for me.

I'll take precautions for the bug.
CM

[medic44]

also store the bow w/ the hair loose, that way the hair won't stretch as fast

[scrapcan]

MC,

It might be a good idea for you to take it to a shop that deal sin antique instrument to get an idea of maker, age, and value. It might be such that you could get an appraisal and then be better off taking to someone to have it redone. You could insure it and then if they goof it up you could alteast have some way to replace it with somthing of similar vintage. We have a sho here in Cheyenne where the owner does this type of work, Dave Neiman at Neimann& Sons Music 1-800-496-0146. He might be willing to talk to you about it also.

[montana_charlie]

I did have the instrument looked at by an informed(?) music store owner back in '85. According to him it's a garden variety violin, of the type commonly imported back around 1920.

It's obvious that some people think an item is valuable simply because it's old.
A number of eBay sellers with violins that could be twins of mine (in age, origin, and condition) are asking 3 and 4 hundred dollars for them. The guy who looked at mine (back then) said it might be worth as much as $50.

I also saw an ivory frog (only) with an asking price of eighty-five dollars, which I recognize as an old Sears catalog item that sold for $1.15 in the '20's...with the entire bow attached.
I don't think ivory has become that valuable, yet.

Perhaps this one's value has gone up somewhat in the last twenty years, but it is not a priceless relic from a master-maker with his signature inside.
The only remarkable thing about this instrument is that the country of origin (on the tag inside) is spelled "Checho-Slovakia". It's been a while since that was common...
CM

[Gun Junkie]

I've never played but I've raised a viola player and a 'cello player.

The bow wood on good bows is Pernamboco. That may be mispelled. It comes from the amazon rainforest. With yours being several decades old it may have some value just for the wood alone. There are groups with the sole purpose of preserving pernamboco forests for the future of strings players. They pay a premium for 1st growth wood over 2nd growth wood. Tighter grain I suppose. 2nd growth bows didn't start appearing on the market until the mid 60's if my sources are to be believed.

Secondly, a luthier told me that proper horsehair comes from Mongolian ponies. Ok, that sounds like a load of Mongolian pony crap but that was the story.

Eastern European violins/fiddles tend to have a more mellow tone. Italy produces a more tinny sound. So regardless of how cheap your instrument was when you got it, it may very well be worth something now. I've also been told that nearly all instruments sound better with age.

On the other hand a beginner instrument will probably always be a beginner instrument. I'd have someone at a good shop look at sometime, just to get a professional opinion.

Have fun fixin' your fiddle....get some good strings and it will sound 2X as good.

[waksupi]

Charlie, located the book! Will have it in the mail for you on Friday, with any luck.

[waksupi]

Charlie, how you coming with rehairing your bow? Caught enough cows to get the hair yet?

[montana_charlie]

Actually, I haven't spent much time thinking about it, recently.

Between irrigating, haying, and messing with cows, that project has stayed on the back burner.
I did mix up some Knox-type hide glue and repair the fingerboard on the violin, itself. But that was several weeks ago.

I have two hanks of hair, and some wedge material in case one needs to be replaced. When I feel like I can afford to spend a whole day at one job, I'll give it a try. Planning to move slow and carefully.

Your book is safe, appreciated, and 'available' (if you should need it sent back before I finish)...just so you know.

I thought about taking hair from the tail of my cow horse. It's even light-colored, like the experts prefer.
But, if his hair is as hard to manage as the horse is, I probably wouldn't want it on a bow...that I'd have to hold onto with both hands.
CM

[waksupi]

Charlie, your homegrown horse hair may work. I used to shoe a string of American saddlebreds, and got lots of long hair from them. Worked pretty well, but was a pain to clean, and get sorted out.

[montana_charlie]

If I decide to rehair on a semi-regular basis, I'll consider using 'local hair'. But for now, I'll just stay with this 'Mongolian' stuff...
CM

[medic44]

Charlie,
If you buy a hank of hair they usualu have enough hair to do about 50 bows. Just get the longer hair and if you have a shorter bow cut it to lenght.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Unfortunately I am not a fiddle fixer, however I enjoy fixing things and have been know to fiddle around something fierce.

Mick.