Extreme Bullet Lead Swaging (.323 -> .314)

[TomBulls]

Adventures in extreme amounts of swaging on lead bullets.

I have been shopping around for a bullet mould in .314/.315 diam. for my '43 91/30 MN (bore is .3135/.314) and have not been able to find anything affordable. There are lots of custom moulds out there, but I don't have (read: don't WANT to spend) the big bucks for a custom mould. So what to do about it?

I have a Lee 170gr RNGC mould in .323 diam., Lee .310 diam., and a Lee .312 diam. mould., and Lee sizers in .311, .314, and .323. I would rather have the bullet slightly too big than slightly too small, so the .310 and .312 moulds are out of the question. Enter the .323 mould and the .314 sizer.

I use the .323 sizer to seat the gas check and do the initial sizing of the cast bullet, and then I run it through the .314 sizer die. The finished sizes are in the neighborhood of .3145/.3146, so that makes something of a difficult fit for a .30 cal. case neck.

After FL sizing the cases (note: will only be neck sizing after the initial firing) I ever so slightly flare the case mouth with my .323 M-Die. I don't size the entire length of the case neck, just enough to get the tip in :-P. The bullet had to be seated very deeply because it was touching the lands in the throat area. The seating depth seems extreme, but if the jump from case mouth to lands is not too far, given the significantly larger diameter of the bullet, then I think it would work just fine.

The swaged .323->.3145 bullet has some exceptionally smooth and shiny bearing surfaces, and I think it will do a good job of riding the bore. My only big concern is that the bullets may not hold enough lubricant to make it all the way down and out the barrel. I had to use the .32 cal. gas check on the .323 bullet, and it doesn't seem to be warped out of shape after passing through the .314 sizer. To be honest, I was shocked that I was even able to close the bolt after bubba-rigging this setup. Heading out to the range tomorrow, so I'll let you guys know how it shoots.

-thomas

[Jack Stanley]

It might surprise you how well it works Thomas .

I have a mold that makes bullets at .319" I seat a gas check and lube at .318" then run through a push through die . It comes out at .3145" or so and works in the Enfield I'm currently fooling with . I have an old 1891 that may be able to use this size too .

Jack

[rintinglen]

I just went through a series of experiments sizing .358 boolits down to .349 for use in my Winchester M-71. low loads gave good accuracy. Right now I am working on 358-429 Keith type boolits sized to .349 as a short range plinker. It shows promise.
I think you'll have very good results if you lube and size the boolits to .323 and then run them through the smaller sizer for final sizing.

[MtGun44]

Lube it before sizing down. The lube will size down the grooves, too, not eliminate
them or make them more shallow.

Bill

[popper]

Will sizing down like this work for paper patching? Or to ask the question properly, any problems in doing this for PP?

[Texantothecore]

Will sizing down like this work for paper patching? Or to ask the question properly, any problems in doing this for PP?


Wow! What a great question! I had never thought of that.

[Larry Gibson]

Lube it before sizing down. The lube will size down the grooves, too, not eliminate
them or make them more shallow.

Bill

+1.

Picture shows 323471 and G 190 gr 325 sized down in one pass through a Lee .314 sizer. Both were lubed and had GC seated/crimped at .325 before sizing in the Lee. Note on the 323471 only the bottom grooves were lubed. Note how they held their shape and volume of lube and the top unlubed grooves swaged down in size.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i'd be more inclined to size down to more like 316.
lube abd check first then do the second sizing.
and don't be afraid to try sizing them backwards on the second go round.

[Larry Gibson]

Will sizing down like this work for paper patching? Or to ask the question properly, any problems in doing this for PP?

Sizing that much with a GC'd softer cast bullet sans the GC can grossly distort the base. A slip on GC, either the old Lyman or a home made one can be use to size the bullet w/o distoring the base. If the GC is not wanted on the PP'd bullet then it can be popped off with a fingernail or small screw driver/knife blade and use on the next bullet to be sized down.

A good waterbased lubed like Lee's on the bullets makes the sizing easier with less distortion also. The lube is easily washed off the sized bullets for PPing.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Runfiverun makes a good point also; a midsizing to .316 or .318 puts less stress on the bullet and probably would make them better. Whether or not the average rack grade M/N is capable of telling the difference is a disputable presumption.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Will sizing down like this work for paper patching? Or to ask the question properly, any problems in doing this for PP?

Unless you have a custom mould made, it's the ONLY way to do it for .32 caliber. Roll the boolit on a case lube pad and size it to 1.5-2 thousandths larger than bore diameter, wrap twice with wet paper thick enough to make snug fit in the throat when dried on the boolit. All this is explained in the stickies in the smokeless PP section if you want more info.

Gear

[swheeler]

All good information given, but do believe we are talking about DRAWING(reducing dia.) a bullet instead of swaging.

[TomBulls]

All good information given, but do believe we are talking about DRAWING(reducing dia.) a bullet instead of swaging.

Yeah, I guess we are talking about DRAWING and not swaging, but the range results ARE IN.

Load data:


=USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK=
=THIS DATA IS PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY=

Rifle: 1943 Izzy 91/30, bore size .3135
Cartridge: 7.62x54r
Bullet: Lee 175gr RNGC .323 -> .314 w/Hornady .32 cal. gas check. Sized with Lee push-through sizing dies
Lube: Tumble lubed with Lee Liquid Alox
Cases: Lapua 7.62x53r, trimmed to 53.6mm
Primer: CCI 200
Powder: 13gr Red Dot
Combined Overall Length: 2.525", seating depth will vary by rifle, but mine was seated very deeply so that the oversized bullet wouldn't be pressing against the throat.


Shooting results:

First couple of groups were between 1 and 2 inches at 100yds, but I think the lead fouling and warmer barrel is what increased shot group size with the later groups. A good cleaning every 10 shots would have kept the shot groups better. Maybe next time.

[popper]

smokeless PP section I've read that but most seemed to be getting moulds for PP. Another experiment for me to try, just haven't gotten there yet.

[geargnasher]

Read Pdawg's sticky, he talks almost exclusively about downsizing standard boolits.

Gear

[runfiverun]

what i was saying was the mid point would be where i stopped..
i'd just size to 316.
it will save some of the integrity of the boolits body and maybe save some of the lube grooves.

the lead/bbl fouling is what is killing your groups,try another lube 45/45/10 [or at least another coat] and a bigger boolit.