tc lock question

[5shotbfr]

ok i have a rather dumb question

i recently bought a very nice tc hawken flint lock rifle . today i finaly got a few r/b made for it an went out to have a good time .
unfortunatly after 3 shots my new toy broke ... heres where the dumb question come into effect ...
the circled part on the picture ... is the sear ? i hate to sound ignorant but i just need to be sure im orderinbg the right part as tc doesnt have any internal lock parts in stock and neither the track of the wolf or the log cabin show a picture .

on a side note ... the rifle seems to shoot good and ignition without fooling with the lock was fairly fast .. up till it broke

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab11/stephen4570/lock23.jpg

[Marvin S]

Yes it is

[Omnivore]

The next, and equally if not more important question is; WHY did the sear arm break? Your lock is very much like the lock in my Lyman Investarms rifle. It MUST have a fly in place on the tumbler or you may break the new sear too.

The tumbler is the part that the hammer attaches to, which also engages the sear and the mainspring. The fly is a very tiny piece of steel, stuck in a very tiny hole in the top (as viewed in your photo) of the tumbler. You may not notice it until you remove the bridle (the part that holds the tumbler in place - a steel plate held onto the lockplate by screws). The fly protects the sear from hitting the half cock notch as the hammer (and tumbler) drops. The fly pivots inside the tumbler, such that it allows the sear to enter the half cock notch as the hammer is pulled back, but cams the sear away from the half cock notch as the hammer falls from full cock.

If you could lower the hammer into the half cock notch from full cock, then your fly is missing or is failing to do its job. With a properly working fly, you have to lower the hammer all the way past the half cock notch, over the fly, and then backward into half cock. Unfortunately you can't do this test if your sear arm is already broken.

A fly is typically used only with a set trigger, because a set trigger releases the sear by hitting it with a very quick snap. For some reason they built these locks with a fly, regardless of whether they're used with a set trigger or not.

I suspect (I don't know, but suspect) that a; your fly may not be in place or it may be misshapen, and that b; a fly is required hardware for this lock whether you have a set trigger or not-- to prevent the half cock notch from slamming into the sear.

[5shotbfr]

ok i took the backing plate off to see the fly .. it apears to be shaped right and the right size to keep the sear out of the half cock notch .. but as mentioned its realy hard to say for sure . without a sear to check

and you are correct the fly would be needed no matter what triggers the rifle has .

i wish i had checked to be 100% sure but i dont recall being able to go back to half cock from full cock .

just from the apearance of the metal i suspect it was just a bad piece of steel to start with .. where it broke isnt shiny and is kinda jagged edged .

heres a pic of the fly

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab11/stephen4570/1345857494.jpg

[fouronesix]

First, the lock parts look to be well rusted (but the photos are pretty blurry). If it were mine, I'd take the lock completely apart and get as much of that off as possible. That would also be a good time to lightly hone all the contact surfaces. Then after shooting and during normal cleaning routine, take the lock out and give it a once over to get all the BP fouling off. You can even rinse in hot water. Use paper towels to get most of the water off-- the hot metal will dry petty quickly on its own. When dry, re-oil. That will help maintain the lock.

Next, its doubtful the rusting and corrosion on the lock parts directly caused the break. Whether it contributed to the break- who knows. Most all those lock parts are cast (as are most modern lock parts) so are susceptible to cracks, fractures and breaks. Put in the new part, makes sure it fits and functions right and you should be good to go.

[5shotbfr]

yea the pics are definatly blurry , i dont have a actual camera and my crappy phone doesnt take very good pics to start with .

but there is not any rust on any of the lock parts , just bad photo's

finding a sear might prove to be interesting .. tc doesnt have any in stock and refuses to give a production date ..
track of the wolf doesnt have one in stock .. and the log cabin shop shows in stock up till i try to order it then comes up as a back order only ... again either knows when they will be available .

ill have to take a deep breath and start over monday

[DIRT Farmer]

I tryed to see what is missing from your "tumbler" but can not tell. I think all of the full size locks are the same internaly. It should have a lifetime warrenty from TC. When I was running State 4-H I kept a spare lock just for parts. If you have to buy the part you might get a yard sale or pawn shop gun for the price of the lock.

[docone31]

Get a replacement from TOW. They make them and they are a little faster.
Might do it right if you are doing a rebuild. The replacement locks are a drop in, with real springs, and good frizzens.

[5shotbfr]

dirt farmer
i dont think theres anything missing in the lock .. right now im just asuming i just have a bad sear .

buying a replacement lock right now just isnt in the budget .. someone somewhere has to have a sear in stock

slightly better pic
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab11/stephen4570/1345865025.jpg

[Maven]

Couldn't you either send the entire lock to T/C for repair or ask for a new sear, as they carry a lifetime warranty?

[fouronesix]

OK, that's a little better. Yep, the sear is broken. Just have to keep poking around for a replacement.

[Geraldo]

Your first call should be to TC's customer service. They'll either have you send the whole lock or get you the parts. Last time I sent in a lock for work I had it back in a week or two.

[fouronesix]

5shot,

Since T/C traditional mls are a red-headed stepchild twice removed as a part of S&W I don't know how their service is for R/R of older such parts.

Just thinking out load but- in case you can't come up with a replacement in a reasonable time there's no reason you couldn't build a replacement sear. Basic hand tools and a propane torch are all you need.

I assume you still have the sear nose that broke off- should have been floating around in the stock somewhere. With care, glue or solder that back onto the main part. Get some flat stock that is the right thickness. Outline the original sear onto the flat stock. The only off-axis portion is the trigger bar. Outline that too as if it were layed flat and attached to the rest of the sear. You'll bend that up later. Hacksaw and file the total part into shape. A Dremel tool would be handy for some of this. The most critical portion is the sear nose profile and engagement angles (where the nose actually fits into the notches of the tumbler). Drill a correct size hole for the main sear screw. Heat with a torch and bend the trigger bar up to a right angle- matching the original sear. File, dress and fit the part to your lock so that it functions correctly. Harden it by high temp baking in bone meal or use a few treatments of Kasenit. More sweat equity than paying the $10-15 for the part- but it is an option.

[5shotbfr]

well after another hour or so of calling nearly everyplace i can find that sells parts .. it seems no one has a sear in stock to fit my tc .

so i called tc/s-w again .. the nice lady i talked to this time was a bit more helpful .
it looks like tc no longer makes parts for these .. her suggestion was to call tow .
so i explained that no one that i can find has a sear in stock .
it took a bit of cajoling but i finaly got her to honor the warrenty after she spoke to someone else higher up the food chain .

i have a call tag and shipping label coming my way .... who knows what will happen now , they wont let me send just the lock in .. was pretty specific about my sending in the entire rifle ...

time will tell what happens next .. but it seems s-w will honor the warrenty on these even if rather reluctantly

[fouronesix]

Well, that's a positive glimmer. Hope you can get it fixed.

Many such companies under new management tend to pretend the old warranties don't exist and will discourage use of the warranty in the ways you described. I can only guess the reasons for requiring the whole gun back. 1) Discourage warranty returns. 2) Verify the parts are off an original T/C product. 3) Verify it is a T/C factory made and assembled gun. If the serial # on the upper left barrel flat has a "K" in it then it was a kit gun and T/C- S&W might not honor the warranty. Just a heads up.

[5shotbfr]

lucky for me then that theres no k in the 5 digit serial number .

i realy have no idea why they want the entire rifle back .. unless thay are just figuring on replacing the entire lock .
but they was adamant on sending the entire rifle in .. lock stock and barrel

[KCSO]

I have a couple spare locks for the T/C if you can't get parts anywhere else.

[Boerrancher]

Here is an email address for Steve Patterson up in Zeeland, MI. He is the owner/operator of Pats Sporting Goods. He specialized in T/C and CVA traditional muzzleloader parts. Ask him if he as what you need, a price, and how to pay him for it. His email is: patsenterprise@live.com

I have picked up lots of odds and ends parts from him that no one else has. I hope this gets you back to shooting soon.

Best wishes,

Joe

[curator]

The Tompson Center folks are mostly the same old crew despite new corporate owners. Send the gun back to them. They have a "lock" upgrade on the older flintlocks that makes them more sure-fire. That might require a bit of fitting that they wil do at no charge. I recently sent one back to them that I bought at a gunshow. I got the rifle back within 10 days, new lock, no questions asked. You won't be sorry. Just be sure to insure the package on its way up to them.

[Dean D.]

If the gun was mine I wouldn't fiddle with fixing the old lock. I would order a replacement lock from L&R http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=36&Itemid=62

[Shyoldman]

I too have had a sear for a cap lock 50 on order since March 13. All they say when I call is it is on back order. Try to get someone to go to Repair and snag one.

[Hogdaddy]

well after another hour or so of calling nearly everyplace i can find that sells parts .. it seems no one has a sear in stock to fit my tc .

so i called tc/s-w again .. the nice lady i talked to this time was a bit more helpful .
it looks like tc no longer makes parts for these .. her suggestion was to call tow .
so i explained that no one that i can find has a sear in stock .
it took a bit of cajoling but i finaly got her to honor the warrenty after she spoke to someone else higher up the food chain .

i have a call tag and shipping label coming my way .... who knows what will happen now , they wont let me send just the lock in .. was pretty specific about my sending in the entire rifle ...

time will tell what happens next .. but it seems s-w will honor the warrenty on these even if rather reluctantly

Can you send in the stock only, With it together of course ??
H/D

[docone31]

They will need the rifle to time the lock.

[Geraldo]

They will need the rifle to time the lock.

Time the lock? This isn't Jim Chambers we're talking about. [smilie=1:

As for me, I'd send the rifle if that's what they want. They're paying for it.

What pisses me off is the bit about "not making parts any more". Really, what's inside the locks of those flint and percussion Hawkens on their website?

And what about this from their website under TC Hawken: "attention to min./max. tolerances is what allows us to offer a Lifetime Warranty!"

They're just trying to save a couple dollars by discouraging you from sending it in. Don't give up.

[Omnivore]

Hard to say. They may be thinking of swapping out the whole lock, and if that were the case I could understand wanting the whole rifle, so they can make sure the hammer aligns with the nipple and suchlike.

Do you have a hacksaw, some files, a drill, a grinder and a torch? I'd say fabricate a new sear arm. Or silver solder a hunk of steel onto the one you have and fit it to the tumbler.

[5shotbfr]

as a bit of an update

i recieved a phone call from tc/s&w yesterday .

it looks like i am getting a new lock on the rifle .. provided they can find one in the stock room .
if they are unable to find a lock i guess ill be getting another brand new rifle .

i have to wonder if this is spelling the end of tc's hawken and renegade rifles .. or just a set back in poroduction due to the move

[5shotbfr]

woo hoo for me .. phone call from fed ex .. package requiring an adult signature being delivered tomarow .. this has to be my hawken rifle back from s-w repair . cant wait to see

[KyBill]

Keep us informed and it is a shame T/C has downsized over the years to just a couple models .and think haveing to hunt a parts room over for an old lock to fit !!! WoW .The young ones all want inlines . I just got a renegade 56 smooth bore had the ole hawken 54 for years hope I dont have any problems years down the road.

[OverMax]

Congads are indeed offered here. Being a little persistent paid off in the long run. Way to go 5shotbfr.

O/M

[5shotbfr]

i got my rifle back today as expected .. but all is not joy in mudville .

they must have found some replacement parts as it came back with a new sear in the origonal lock .
but the tech failed to notice the problem that evidently broke the sear in the first time .

the fly .. a few of you pointed out that if the fly isnt working properly the sear will catch on the half cock notch and with an intact sear it is easy to see that the fly was ground just a whisker to small by whomever fit it origonaly .

sooo another phone call to s-w and they are sending me another fly to fit properly

[OverMax]

When you get your new fly 5shotbfr. Please go lightly on its installation. Otherwise its another return trip back to Mudville for yaw.lol