.45 lc load question

[tnv]

One more question, if I may. When looking at loads for a .454 Casull, I find 30-32 grains of 296 behind a 300 grain bullet is quite popular and highly recommended for serious hunting. I'm also told NOT to under load the cases since a partially loaded case can result in VERY case pressures. Yet when I look at .45 long colt loading data, they recommend 22 grains of 296 behind the same 300 grain slug...without it having HIGH case pressures!! Why would you not have very high pressures in the .45 long colt case, since this is a 30% powder (approx.) decrease in the .454 load? Or am I missing something?
tnv

[Scrounger]

There are two schools of thought on SEEs; One group believes they happen, one group doesn't. Who's right? I don't know.

[leftiye]

Tnv, I see your point. So long as the space taken up by the powder is not reduced to a small (1/2 or less) fraction of the total volume of the case, then your premise is correct. The powder which is supposedly not to be fired in reduced loads has in fact been reduced as it is being fired in vastly reduced loads pressure wise (approximately half the pressure of the .454 load). Either we should avoid the lower pressure loads as unsafe, or the powder does indeed function safely (properly) at the lower pressures of the .45 Colt. Sorry to say, I'm as lost as you are at this point. It's not one of my favorite powders. I'd just use AA#9 if I wanted a low pressure load, and for full house .45 Colt loads you can't beat 2400 (with none of the B.S.). Blue dot gives excellent pressure to velocity ratios in .45 Colt too (better with lighter boolits).

[tnv]

Let me perfectly honest...I haven't the slightest idea what a "SEE" is!

[DanWalker]

Let me perfectly honest...I haven't the slightest idea what a "SEE" is!

SEE= Secondary Explosive Effect(KABOOM)

I shot lots of 300 grainers over 6.5 grains of Red Dot and they shoot great!
I get 875-900fps anf terrific accuracy with mild recoil.
For the rompin' stompin' 45 loads with this boolit I use 18.5 grains of 2400.
Never tried h110 or 296 because of it's unpredictability.

[454PB]

I don't think it's an S.S.E. or pressure problem, I think it's an ignition problem. I have had experiences with H-110 and FTF, with resulting boolit stuck in the barrel. I've also had hangfires when using AAC#9 in .454 Casull with 250 gr. XTP's. If your .45 Colt cases are filled to....or close to the base of the seated boolit, you should be fine.

One of the reasons that I've drifted away from H-110 and WW 296 is that I've found Hodgdon Lil'Gun will equal or exceed the velocity and accuracy of both powders without the ignition problems.

[Paul B]

Let me perfectly honest...I haven't the slightest idea what a "SEE" is!

S.E.E. is Secondary Explosion Effect, AKA D.D.T. or Deflagration to Detonation Transition. It's also called P.E.P, or Pressure Excursion Phenomenon. They all mean the same thing though, KABOOM!. Personally I feel that D.D.T. is the best description of the problem.
Paul B.

[45r]

H-110 was made for 30 carbine and I've found nothing better in 357 mag for my 185GC boolits in that caliber.I too have gone to LIL-GUN in 41,44,and some 45 Colt,Casull loads when I want top velocity.Sometimes 2400 or 4227 will be more accurate and power pistol is the best midrange load in 45 colt in my load testing with HS-6 being best in 454 Casull.Unique is best in a lot of my loads in 357,41, and 44 Mag plain base loads.If you have the above powders and try diffrent loads in each you will eventually find a good load.I have gotten 2 and a half inch groups or less at 50 yards using these powders and don't bother trying anything else out anymore.I would say 2400 is the most versatile out of all of them with unique not far behind.those two and power pistol and hs-6 will always be on my loading bench and the others there if I can afford them.Thinking about cutting down to save money with things getting so expensive and velocity is isn't needed for practice so Ball Powder loads are used for hunting only nowadays for me.

[tnv]

Thanks for all the feedback and info. tnv

[AZ-Stew]

I've often wondered whether some of these KABOOMS associated with reduced loads are in some way akin to a dust explosion, such as in a grain elevator.

In a reduced load, there is room for powder to be suspended in a "cloud" inside the cartridge, driven to suspension by the primer explosion, thus allowing a large number of the powder kernals in the charge to have their entire surfaces exposed to flame at the same time, rather than burning in a compressed column of kernals from one end to the other. My theory is that exposing so much powder surface area to burning at the same time increases the burn rate, thus quickly peaking the pressure curve.

I have no data to back up this theory. It's just something that's been rattling around in my head for years.

Regards,

Stew

[felix]

Stew, right on! Anthing that encourages instaneous ignition is aiding and abetting the SEE condition. ... felix

[leftiye]

Stew, Man! I wish my head rattled that good. A variation- what if the low denstiy loadings allowed the charge to be KITA (shaken up, made airborne) and simultaneously lit from all directions? Now all we have to do is predict the delay. Maybe the chg. settles for a moment while ignition makes ready to take off? Kinda tempting thought? I still think the bullet stuck in the leade really helps.

[tnv]

This means nothing, but I tried it to see what would happen. I loaded 40 shells with 6.5 grains red dot and 300 grain ww slugs w/ lbt blue lube. I loaded and held the .454 straight up and tapped the cylinder with a plastic hammer to settle the powder to the back, then slowly lowered and fired a single round. I did this for 5 shot, reloaded and repeated for another 5 rounds. Then I repeated the next 10, but without settling the powder betwixt rounds. I fired another 10 rounds, but first lowered the barrel downwards betwixt rounds. Last 10 were fired held straight ahead with nothing done betwixt rounds. All shots fired over a chrono 10 ft. from the barrel.
The reading were all over the place, except when the barrel was only held straight ahead and the powder wasn't settled. The groups were also inconsistent except when the gun was fired without the "benefit" of doing anything to the powder. Did this for another 40 rounds and got the same results.
Mostly, this was just a good excuse to shoot 80 rounds of ammo. tnv

[arkypete]

For what it's worth..........
I load for a Rossi 92 and a Colt Anaconda 45 Colt. I've loaded up a 1,000 or so of 20 grains of H110 with a 300 grain Saeco gas checked boolet, cast from air cooled WWs.
Never had a problem with 45 Colt rounds.
Muzzle flash is impressive.
Jim

[floodgate]

AZ-Stew:

There's a little backup to your idea, anyhow: the early Dupont bulk smokeless powders - intended to load volume-for-volume with Black Powder - were fuzzy and very fragile balls, and tended under much handling to break down into fines, leading to KABOOMS. Not really SEE (i.e., "deflagration into detonation"), but the greatly increased surface and ignition/burning rate destroyed a number of fine older shotguns and a few rifles around 1900.

floodgate

[Scrounger]

AZ-Stew:

There's a little backup to your idea, anyhow: the early Dupont bulk smokeless powders - intended to load volume-for-volume with Black Powder - were fuzzy and very fragile balls, and tended under much handling to break down into fines, leading to KABOOMS. Not really SEE (i.e., "deflagration into detonation"), but the greatly increased surface and ignition/burning rate destroyed a number of fine older shotguns and a few rifles around 1900.

floodgate

I remember reading stories by Harvey Donaldson (?) about sifting that powder into three different grades by size and getting top notch accuracy with it.

[AZ-Stew]

First, I'm relieved that the lot of you didn't come down on me like the ton of wheel weights I wish I had, telling me that the dust cloud is in my cranium.

Leftiye, I think you're on the right track...

I first conceived this notion in the 70s when I began reading about .357 Magnum cylinders blown apart by certain light charges of Bullseye. Seems people were engaged in double-action practice when the majority of these occurred. No one could duplicate them, so they were written off as accidental overloads or, like UFOs, "yes, something happened, but we don't know what it was, so we'll ignore it".

The charges of BE I was using at the time were a bit more stout than those causing the KABOOMS, so I didn't worry about my loads destroying one of my guns. It occurred to me that during double-action practice with one of the less dense loads of powder, one might occasionally time the second (third, etc.) shot just as the sights settled back on the target, but before the powder had a chance to settle to the bottom of the case after being whipped to the top of the case during recoil and recovery. This, too, would create a "cloud" of powder in the case just at the moment of ignition, and would be almost impossible to duplicate with regularity due to the timing of the powder cloud suspension in the case.

Seems to me the same sort of thing could occur with the touchy ball powders if load density isn't near 100 percent, except that the cloud of powder particles would be whipped up by the primer, rather than as an action of recoil.

Another aspect that would affect being able to repeat this phenomenon is the type of flame and pressure wave of the primer, and its relation to the carridge case volume. This would vary by primer type, make and lot.

LOTS of variables. I certainly don't want to design the experiment to prove my theory, but I'd sure like to see someone who does thses kinds of things for a living take up the challenge. It would be interesting to know whether any of the professional ballistics labs have considered studying this possibility.

Regards,

Stew

[leftiye]

Guess we're kinda hijacking this thread (well he did ask about SEE's).... I don't know why, but I'm still leaning to a hang fire kind of scenario. I don't think that the super ignition situation will do more than raise pressures (maybe a lot). But I like the idea that it ALL gets lit a little, then sits there a moment (and heats up) and then goes all at once. Primer shock pulverizing the grains would help too.

[Firebird]

To go back to the original question, that's just the standard warning that all loads with H110/W296 get from the load manuals. It really doesn't apply much to the 454 Casull due to the very high pressure used in that cartridge.
It's that H110/W296 (actually these are the same powder) is formed into very small balls, that have a very heavy deterrent coating to slow the burn rate. This makes the powder hard to ignite, and at pressure levels under 25-30K psi the powder tends to burn very poorly, resulting in "squibs" where the powder burn actually goes out and the bullet can get stuck in the barrel. When this powder is used for most magnum pistol cartridges which have a pressure max of 35-36K psi, even small reductions in the powder load can cause problems. At the pressure levels used by the 454 Casull (and 460 & 500 S&W magnums) which are above 50K psi for most loads, and have a SAAMI max pressure of 65K psi, you really don't have this problem.

[MT Gianni]

The other puzzling thing about reducing charges w 296/110 is that reduced charges for rifles are listed with these powders in the RCBS cast bullet manual. I looked and thought well I'm note biting for those but have always wondered who their tester was. Gianni

[felix]

Gianni, the breech is closed in rifles (and/or automatics with good timing) which allows good pressure to build. Hard to get a SEE condition in revolters, but much easier to get a squib. ... felix

[MT Gianni]

Thanks, Felix. That does make sense. Gianni

[Scrounger]

I could never see the point in reduced charges of 'slow' powder; A lot of slow powder is what you use when you want the bullet to go fast; If you want a light load, use a fast powder. Same in cars; If you want to go 20 miles an hour, get your car with its 100 MPH capability off the road and get a bicycle.

[frank505]

296/110 will do lots of variation at less than higher pressure in revolver cases with normal for cartridge weight bullets. Load heavier bullets and the variations go away a little. WC 820 at 21.5 grains and a 310 Keith has done very well for at least 10,000 rounds in my 45. The total amount of rounds may be lots higher too, but I love my 820 and keith bullets.

[leftiye]

Tnv, I suspect that firebird has your answer. It's about actual pressures. If you keep pressures above 30,000psi 110/296 may not experience the burning rate variations. So then reducing pressures from 50,000 to 30000 might be safe. Old time magnum pistol pressures sit astride this lower pressure limit, and therefore the restrictions on loading down do apply at these pressures

[tnv]

Again, thanks for all the very informative answers. I stand humbled by all the knowledge avail. if one only asks for help. tnv