R.E.A.L Velocity

[newton]

So I did some searching on here, but came up empty handed.

I just got a couple of new molds to try with my front stuffer. The Lee .50 cal, 320 grain REAL mold, comes with a load chart. It seems real weak at between 20-56 grains of pyrodex rs. Which, the fine print states is "conservative by most standards".

So it got me to thinking if anyone has actually put these across a chronograph and seen what they got at different charges.

The little bit of "googleing" I did turned up a charge of 56 grains gave an average of 1200 fps with the 320 grain one.

These are the times I would love to have a chronograph for curiosities sake.

[newton]

Or, if no one has that, I would love to hear if anyone has done testing as far as trajectory goes with different loads and the R.E.A.L. boolits. That is the main thing I am after. I am thinking a 3" high at 50 will put me close to dead on at 100. And then, if I am guessing right, around 11" low at 150 if I ever think I got the skill to do so.

[Stonecrusher]

The 320 grn REAL over 110 grns FFG Goex out of my T/C Hawken gets about 1630 fps. This is a max load according to the owners manual. About 2 3/8" groups at 100 yds. Sighted about 1 1/2" high at 50yds it is about 2" low at 100. This is using the tang sight. I never checked farther distances. Shots are close here. In fact, never shot hog or deer over 50 yds with it. It kills well too, always exits the far side. I hit one deer behind the shoulder and it went through about 18 inches of spine and came out her neck. Only thing is, they could be a little snugger fit in the bore.

[idahoron]

I have a Ohler 35 Chronograph. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 70 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1395. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 80 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was1440.
The 320 gr REAL bullets with 90 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1564. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 100 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1627

I use a BC of .189, I Would be curious to know what other guys use for a BC on them.
Ron

[newton]

Hey, thanks guys. Just the info I was looking for. I figured the BC at around .16

Now the only thing I have to do is to get my mold spitting them out right. I had a HECK of a time last night. Never could get a complete fill out. I tried everything except for smoking them. I have no clue, but I did just run across a post somewhere that a guy had his lead too hot and it was causing it. I always thought it was from too cold, never would have thought.

I am going to try them out this weekend. The info should help me along. If I can get 1400 fps I think that it would be enough for anything out to 150 yards, even further with a little hold over. Of course, at 150 I would need to start aiming higher anyways.

I know that during ML season I will have shots all day long at 100, but I would like to poke out a little further than that just in case.

[newton]

I have a Ohler 35 Chronograph. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 70 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1395. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 80 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was1440.
The 320 gr REAL bullets with 90 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1564. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 100 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1627

I use a BC of .189, I Would be curious to know what other guys use for a BC on them.
Ron

Did you per chance try with and/or without a lubed/dry wad underneath the boolit?

I have read that the lubed patch 'can' increase velocity a tad.

[docone31]

You want that mold hot. You will not get fillout with a cold mold.
I have found, if they get too hot, the lead pours out as fast as it pours in.
Six seconds to freeze the sprue. Less and it is too cold. longer and it is too hot.

[newton]

You want that mold hot. You will not get fillout with a cold mold.
I have found, if they get too hot, the lead pours out as fast as it pours in.
Six seconds to freeze the sprue. Less and it is too cold. longer and it is too hot.

I am pretty sure I have gotten it hot enough. I left it, corner in the melt, for 10-15 mins or more. It helped, but still have issues with the COMPLETE fill out of it. I am going to try different casting temps and different mold temps. Along with smoking this evening.

I also did clean it, but will clean it again. I thought for a while maybe its the vent lines, but I cleaned them and still nothing. I have only played with it for a while last night, but it sure did take longer than other molds I have gotten before.

47074

[Omnivore]

Lee states in their mold manual that you must, definately, absolutely smoke your mold or it will not work. I've always done it and gotten good results. Some have suggested a very light film of Kroil in the mold cavity instead. After a bunch of pours you start getting good bullets as the Kroil burns off (just another way of smoking?). I've done it both ways-- with the smoke or the Kroil. Either way works. The main thing is to pour clean lead, have some carbon in the mold and have the temperatures right.

I don't know how much casting you've done. When I first started, I had a horrible time-- all the manuals tell you that if it's not working, you need more heat. Period. Hotter hotter hotter. That has lead many an unsuspecting new caster to WAY overheat their melt. After I figured out (with lots of excellent help from this web site) how to balance the temperature of the melt with the temp of the mold it all started coming together. I don't dip my molds to heat them, but just start pouring lead in them to heat them from the inside. Once the mold gets up to temp, and the melt is at the right temp, if the mold surfaces were prepped right, it'll start dropping good bullets.

And that suggestion of several seconds to freeze the sprue is a very good one. That's when you're in the zone.

[newton]

I am new for sure, but in my short time of doing it I have only had a little trouble here and there. I know my lead is good, I cast a bunch in another mold from the same pot. The heat issue I have tried in a little different ways, except for drastically lowering it. But again, works in othe similar molds.

So the only thing different is the smoke. I was under the impression it was just about if the boolits were sticking or not. They were not sticking, so I did not smoke. Lol. But the other molds I have always smoked, mainly because they were sticking. As far as sprue freeze, I see what you all are saying and its the way I have always seen it best myself. Too fast of a freeze and they are no good.

So all in all, it still all points to the smoke thing. I would not have thought it, but I do now. I am going to be doing it tonight so I will post results. It's interesting to say the least. Thanks for all the advice.

[idahoron]

Did you per chance try with and/or without a lubed/dry wad underneath the boolit?

I have read that the lubed patch 'can' increase velocity a tad.

Yes I did try both with a wad and without. Without was a mess. The best results were with a over powder wad.
Ron

[idahoron]

I am new for sure, but in my short time of doing it I have only had a little trouble here and there. I know my lead is good, I cast a bunch in another mold from the same pot. The heat issue I have tried in a little different ways, except for drastically lowering it. But again, works in othe similar molds.

So the only thing different is the smoke. I was under the impression it was just about if the boolits were sticking or not. They were not sticking, so I did not smoke. Lol. But the other molds I have always smoked, mainly because they were sticking. As far as sprue freeze, I see what you all are saying and its the way I have always seen it best myself. Too fast of a freeze and they are no good.

So all in all, it still all points to the smoke thing. I would not have thought it, but I do now. I am going to be doing it tonight so I will post results. It's interesting to say the least. Thanks for all the advice.

How are you pouring them. I get the best results with a ladle. Ron

[newton]

Were you using a lubed or non lubed? I suppose most everyone uses lubed, but you never know.

I had tried pouring both with a ladle and with bottom pour. Settled on the bottom pour for the ease. I use the ladle for my rifle boolits though.

I cleaned the mold last night again, then smoked it. I also scored some more little vent lines.

After the mold heated up it started dropping GREAT. Then, it started to slack off on fillout. So I stopped again and re-smoked it, and it went back to dropping good. I did this a couple more times and then I was able to just keep going without re-smoking.

So there is something to the whole smoking thing. Not sure what it is yet, but there is something to it as it concerns fillout. It helps with sticking also, but I am amazed at the difference in fillout.

I am really looking forward to shooting them this weekend. I got some felt the other day from a lady here in Arkansas. Awesome looking felt. Going to punch out some rounds and soak them in some beeswax/lard lube.

Sure wish I had a chrony so I could give some results to compare by. I think that is #1 on my Christmas list.

[newton]

I think I got it. I am going to look more into it, but I am almost positive it has something to do with surface tension. Something about the tension of Aluminum. Very interesting. In my mind I think about when you have oil and water and you put a drop of dawn soap in it. Also, with static electricity and plastics. Like the lee dippers that sometimes get static with the powder and all. Once they are 'used' enough they stop clinging to the powder.

Oh well. It works and that's all that matters. lol This is not the best picture, but you can tell the difference from yesterday.

47086

[docone31]

I soak my new molds in mineral spirits over night. You would be suprised how much falls off the mold. With the real stubborn molds, and I did have a few, I pour fresh melt into the mold through a nut. I then remove the nut/casting, and do several. These I smear Valve Grinding Compound on lightly, and then put back in the mold.
I take a wrench and gently close and turn at the same time. It does not take much. To make sure the molds are the same size, I swap out castings, one for the other.
Works for me.

[frontier gander]

I get my lead real hot and then turn it down to 8 on my lee pot. Dip the lee mold into the molten lead for aprox 20 seconds and shes ready to go to town.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Cabelas%20Hawken/DSCN3196.jpg

[newton]

Yep. Your right on the temp number. Right at 8 is where they were dropping great. Cast some of the .45's last night. I am hopefully going to be getting a .45 sometime next week and will see just how well they shoot. I am guessing they are going to be clocking a lot faster than the .50's.

Anyone have any data on those? I am not sure if the rifle will be the right twist for them or not. But it should be a lot softer shooting gun because the .45's are weighing in at 192 grains versus the 320 grains of the .50's. This should make a REAL(pun intended) nice shooting gun for my boy.

[TCLouis]

Have any load data/accuracy data with that 250 grain REAL

[newton]

Shot my .50 REAL's today. Started at 50 yards. I decided on a load of 75 grains because I want to be right around 1400 fps. Fired a foul shot, then three more. They all grouped 3/4". I thought that was sweet. Shot another, after correcting for the scope being off, and had it hit exactly where I want it. 4" high at 50, that should put me at 3.5" high at 100.

So it was good at 50, figured I'd move out to 100. Fired shot #6 and wouldn't you know, hit 3.5" high. I was ecstatic! Loaded another round, fired, and don't have a clue where it went. I guess it's possible that I hit the exact same hole...but I really do not think it happened. So I loaded again, and hit dead even, 3" to the left of poa.

Nerves? Loaded another one, no new holes. Hit the same hole again? I still do not know, but I know I started to feel rushed so anything is possible then. I'm gonna try again, but I really cannot see how a true and provable 3/4" group at 50 could open up further than 18"(size of center of backstop to edge) at 100 yards. Or is it possible?

I ran a dry patch down th bore after each shot, turned it over and ran it down again. I have to wonder though, if after 6 shots it reached its limit of me needing to do a little deeper cleaning? It's clean now. I'll try again. My hopes were up real high there for a little bit, now they are down quite a bit. I'm hoping its a combo of trying to rush(dinner was ready) and a dirty bore.

On a side note, they were easy enough to load. I can see the one comment on them being loose, although they did not seem that much different than some sabots I have hunted with. I'll have to load one and carry it around like I'm hunting and then check to see if it comes off its seat.

[idahoron]

Dry patching is a risky business. I have helped guys to remove jags that were stuck due to dry patch.

Your ultimate goal is to have a clean barrel, load a round and have it hit the spot you want. You need to do a more thorough cleaning between shots. I call it the one shot group. After you know where it will hit and the gun sighted in. you can shoot until the group blows out. Then you know for a fact what is happening. Ron

[**oneshot**]

The cold clean barrel is my primary concern with any of my hunting guns.

[newton]

Dry patching is a risky business. I have helped guys to remove jags that were stuck due to dry patch.

Your ultimate goal is to have a clean barrel, load a round and have it hit the spot you want. You need to do a more thorough cleaning between shots. I call it the one shot group. After you know where it will hit and the gun sighted in. you can shoot until the group blows out. Then you know for a fact what is happening. Ron

I hear what your saying. I'll have to admit though, I dunno if it's the lube or the wad or a combo of both, but it keeps the fouling soft. Never a hint of it sticking. I think I'll try it the other way next time out. I'll make up some wet patches and I'll swab with one first, then follow it with dry. After sleeping on it I'm pretty convinced it was me rushing and my barrel.

I also was using some not so perfect casts. I'll be sure and use ones I feel are up to snuff. I just figured I would be spending more time and bullets getting it to hit where I wanted at first.

I also wondered if it was not my bullets starting to enter the subsonic range after going supersonic. I never really worry about this sort of thing with my rifle, but I wonder if it effects ML's also?

Cold clean barrel is a definite accuracy killer. But I always take care of that with a single fouling shot. That's all my gun needs. Used to I would use a patched ball to save my sabots. Lol. When I had to buy them they were $. I figured up what I shot last night, 11 shots, and I only spent a little under a buck.

I'll get back out and test again. I know my scope is on so I'll start at 100. If its not working again I'll up my charge to 85-90. I just don't see using anymore powder than is needed.

[frontier gander]

Damp patch, not wet

[newton]

I have a Ohler 35 Chronograph. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 70 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1395. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 80 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was1440.
The 320 gr REAL bullets with 90 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1564. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 100 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1627

I use a BC of .189, I Would be curious to know what other guys use for a BC on them.
Ron

So I am curious, not sure why I did not ask this before. But what load was your best group?

[idahoron]

My average was probably in the 3" range. Not bad but not smoking good either. Ron

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/22505-25-07_Lee_real_3_5.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/22505-25-07_Lee_real_2_5.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/22505-25-07_Lee_real_1_5.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/2250325_gr_lee_REAL_100_yard_2.jpg

[Omnivore]

Trying to understand how you can carry a fouled bore in the hunting field. You fired it last night, two nights ago, a week ago, or you torched off a round that morning before you went out? For myself, I walk out my front door in town with a charged barrel, so lighting one off beforehand is not practical-- By the time I'm out of the town limits I'm hunting.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm hunting I'm carrying a cold clean bore. That's the shot that counts, and so that's the shot you need to have figured out.

[frontier gander]

first shot counts yes, but make sure you know where that fouled second shot goes just in case.

[1Gun]

I have a Ohler 35 Chronograph. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 70 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1395. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 80 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was1440.
The 320 gr REAL bullets with 90 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1564. The 320 gr REAL bullets with 100 gr of Pyrodex Select RS was 1627

I use a BC of .189, I Would be curious to know what other guys use for a BC on them.
Ron

Here is a link from Lee Precision to a table of BC's for Lee REAL's.

http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/546/61/real-bullet-mold-ballistic-coefficients

1Gun

[newton]

Trying to understand how you can carry a fouled bore in the hunting field. You fired it last night, two nights ago, a week ago, or you torched off a round that morning before you went out? For myself, I walk out my front door in town with a charged barrel, so lighting one off beforehand is not practical-- By the time I'm out of the town limits I'm hunting.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm hunting I'm carrying a cold clean bore. That's the shot that counts, and so that's the shot you need to have figured out.

I have found in other guns I have that a simple snap of a cap helps the first shot. Its like it smokes the barrel just enough. But if I have a place to discharge I will load a real light charge and plink a rb out the barrel. Either way, I know with a pristine barrel my first shot is not on the mark and always outside the "group" of the next three shots.

Of course it might be all the oil I like to leave in my barrel. I like it to be almost wet when I get done shooting it. If I spent the time cleaning the oil out and then shot my first one it might be different. I find it easier to just wipe the excess out and shoot a fouling shot.

[newton]

Here is a link from Lee Precision to a table of BC's for Lee REAL's.

http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/546/61/real-bullet-mold-ballistic-coefficients

1Gun

Hey, many thanks!

[newton]

Those bc's look really high. Very interesting.

[newton]

My average was probably in the 3" range. Not bad but not smoking good either. Ron

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/22505-25-07_Lee_real_3_5.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/22505-25-07_Lee_real_2_5.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/22505-25-07_Lee_real_1_5.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/2250325_gr_lee_REAL_100_yard_2.jpg

Well I am guessing based off your velocity test results, on the previous page, that those were all groups with 100+ grain loading.

Did you test any with lower charges at 100 yards? Just curious. I think that's what I will do this weekend. I'll do 80 and 90 grain charges to see what they are like. I am going to try the 70 again, but I am just not sure if its going to cut the mustard.

[newton]

Yea, if those are the true BC's then it changes things a lot when trying to figure trajectory.

I just ran those numbers and instead of needing to be 4" high at 50 to get the point blank range, I only need to be 3" high.

This is very intriguing to me. I know it might not be to others, but it is to me.

[idahoron]

I am surprised at those numbers. I could not find those a few years ago. I determined the numbers I got from bullet drop and speed.

I am sure I did lower charges but I can't find that stuff. Ron

[newton]

I am surprised at those numbers. I could not find those a few years ago. I determined the numbers I got from bullet drop and speed.

I am sure I did lower charges but I can't find that stuff. Ron

I found a calculator online. I entered 'rough' numbers and I actually came out with a .265 BC. Its interesting. I am sure it is based upon their mold design.

http://www.tmtpages.com/calcbc/calcbc.htm#calculator

[idahoron]

I found a calculator online. I entered 'rough' numbers and I actually came out with a .265 BC. Its interesting. I am sure it is based upon their mold design.

http://www.tmtpages.com/calcbc/calcbc.htm#calculator

All the testing I did was from 50 to 100 yards. Like I said I based it off of a chronograph and drop. That 265 might be a good number. Ron