Buffalo Bore 340gr 44mag rounds

[HDS]

I was checking out these rounds because I was looking for a round that'd reach finnish Class 2 hunting specs. The most stoutly loaded rounds (300gr bullets) I can find in the loading manuals don't seem to be able to measure up.

The specs are 1700 joules or around 1260 foot-pounds of energy, at 100 yards. Ballistic coefficient of these rounds is too low to retain the energy long enough.


So I was looking at the Buffalo Bore 340gr bullets (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54) as a possible solution, but the site says:

This new load is designed ONLY for certain firearms. They are as follows; Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull, Colt Anaconda and Dan Wesson Revolvers. Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, "modified" Marlin 1894 (see next paragraph), Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle. We get hundreds of emails asking if this load can be fired in S&W revolvers or some firearm other than what is in the above list. The answer is NO. The above list is all inclusive

I find it a bit weird they include the Marlin 1894 and Winchester 94, but not the Rossi 92, which I would think is probably a stronger action than both of these. I assume this is just lawyer-talk on their part to prevent from getting sued? I can't see anything that'd make the Rossi 92 less disqualified here.

[44man]

That is a strange requirement for hunting for sure.
I don't know about the Rossi but they might have just missed it.
They say "modified" for the Marlin and I have no idea what that is unless it is to feed the big rounds. They are fussy to boolit length. Would the Rossi even take the rounds?

[JeffHolt]

I have a PUMA 44 mag lever-action. I've found that it can cycle rounds up to about 1.70 inches with a firm, full cycling of the the gun's action. We were testing some Penn 320gn SSK's loaded to the first of 2 crimp grooves (for a shorter cartridge). I don't know if Rossi guns have different dimensions.

[sw282]

Buffalo Bore says these 340gr rds wont stabilize in Marlin 1894s because of its slow barrel twist---1 in 38

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I too, have wondered if the 92 action can handle the ".44 Ruger loads", or if they will even chamber/cycle. Even if the heavy loads do make the mark, I'm not quite sure how you would prove their ballistic qualities to the authorities, short of setting up a crony at 100 yards and shooting over it. Most likely, they would just reference back to some handy dandy pocket ballistics chart someone gave them in training and tell you were underpowered with a 44 mag! I hate it when folks tell me to buy another gun rather than make the one I have work, but in this case, you may have a pretty good excuse to go buy a bigger gun!

[runfiverun]

i really hope they can take the stouter loads.
i have fired well over 5k ruger only loads in mine.
i don't know how to unshoot that many rounds.
the model 94 is built around 40k psi loads.
the 92 has been used for the 454 casull and the 480 ruger,and many 25-20/32-20's were converted to 357 mag in the early days of the round when pressures were nearly to the 40k area.

[Iron Mike Golf]

100 yds might be marginal shot from a Rossi 92, owing to the slow twist.

[HDS]

I too, have wondered if the 92 action can handle the ".44 Ruger loads", or if they will even chamber/cycle. Even if the heavy loads do make the mark, I'm not quite sure how you would prove their ballistic qualities to the authorities, short of setting up a crony at 100 yards and shooting over it. Most likely, they would just reference back to some handy dandy pocket ballistics chart someone gave them in training and tell you were underpowered with a 44 mag! I hate it when folks tell me to buy another gun rather than make the one I have work, but in this case, you may have a pretty good excuse to go buy a bigger gun!

Well the 92 action as far as I have understood it, is considered to be stronger than the Marlin 1894 action so why not?

[HDS]

100 yds might be marginal shot from a Rossi 92, owing to the slow twist.

The twist in rossi 92s is 1:20, I thought that was a good twist for this?

[MT Chambers]

The twist is great for the heavier bullets but the loaded rounds OAL may be too long, some mold makers make the heavy weight bullets with short noses for these as well as the .444 Marlin.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I thought all the R92s were 1:30. My .357 Mag R92 is 1:30.

[HDS]

Well I think that varies from caliber to caliber, 357 mag 92's can be 1:30 for sure. I don't own one so I have no real idea on whats what there. The 44mag ones I have always heard where 1:20 though over on levergunscommunity.com and so forth.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Specs posted on a seller's site:

http://www.ampro.co.nz/products/rossi/rossi.htm

[HDS]

Interesting, this requires investigation...

[fredj338]

Energy goes up faster w/ vel than bullet wt. I would think a 310grLFP @ 1450fps in a rifle would still make that @ 100yds. In a 18" bbl, that should be achievable.

[paul h]

Energy goes up faster w/ vel than bullet wt. I would think a 310grLFP @ 1450fps in a rifle would still make that @ 100yds. In a 18" bbl, that should be achievable.

Should be no problem. Years ago I chronoed a 310gr cast over as I recall 22gr of H-110 from a 4 5/8" sbh, 7 1/2" sbh, and a 10" contender. As I recall the velocities were 1200 fps, 1300 fps and 1400 fps respectively. Stretching the barrel to 18" should easily gain 100+ fps and thus over 1500 fps at th muzzle, likely closer to 1600fps.

[W.R.Buchanan]

my .02 on this subject:

From everything I have read a .44 240-300 gr SWC style boolit wil go completely thru and Elk sized animal at 900 FPS. This is easily achieved from most any revolver.

A rifle will shoot the same boolits easily at 1600 fps. Figure a 400-600 fps rise in MV from a rifle for a given load.

They kill by punching a 7/16" hole thru and leaking all the blood out.

The typical "high power rifle" kills by shock. And this is where the energy factor was established. 1500 ft lbs is supposed to be the minimum for "humainly" shooting a deer. And yet the creatures were almost brought to extinction by rifles shooting the .44-40 cartridge which on a good day is not even half as powerful as the .44 magnum. Not to mention the number of deer killed by 38-40's .32-20's and even 25-20's.

Go figure.

But I personally am confident that the only limitation on the .44 is range, with the big boolits 300gr+ the energy is still there out to 150 yds. You just have to know the trajectory in order to hit the mark.

The over all length factor in a lever gun is more of an issue . The Buffalo Bore and Garrett cartridges have killed everything on earth shot out of pistols.

With the Marlin rifles it is necessary to move the step on the cartridge lifter back about .125" to accomidate the extra length of these bigger rounds as the 340 gr boolits are considerably longer.

Marlins don't care about OAL (as long as the lifter will accomidate it) and will feed anything shorter interchangabily. Still with a 1/38 twist baarrel they probably aren't going to be very accurate with anything over about 280 gr. But still a 280 gr boolit is a really big chunk of lead flying!

The Winchesters do care about OAL

I don't know if you can even modify a M92 to do this.

I think the Taylor Knockdown Factor is a more applicable indication of the power of the larger rounds.

I did some calcs on different rounds once and what I came up with was interesting.

.22LR 40 gr @1100fps TKD 1.4

.30-30/170/2300 17.2

.30-06/180/2700 21.4

.300WM/180/3100 24.5

.45ACP/230/900 13.4

.44Mag/250/1300 18.4

.44/310/1200 22.8

.44/250/1800 27.6

.45-70/300/2000 38.2

.45-70/430/1800 50.6

.458WM/500/2050 67.0

8lb Sledge Hammer @30 fps. 512.0 !

You can see the .44's compare favorably with 180 gr .30-06 loads knockdown powerwise from a pistol! From a rifle the .44 wins, and even exceeds a .300WM

And the 140 year old .45-70 is twice as powerful as a .30-06. and only 15% less than a .458 Win mag

The problem here is there is more than oneway to look at power and it depends on what the type of bullet being used. Penetraion or shock? The Ferrari going really fast or the BUS moving at a more modest velocity.

The 8lb Sledge Hammer will kill anything in the universe!

Randy

[fredj338]

Randy, the OP needs a min energy figure, regardless of how the bullet performs. I am only pointing out the that going to a heavier bullet is less likely to get him the results he wants. A 310gr LFP @ 1450-1500fps from a rifle should meet his min legal requirement. What are they goinmg to do, setup a chrono @ 100yds & test it, I doubt it.

[HDS]

The typical "high power rifle" kills by shock. And this is where the energy factor was established. 1500 ft lbs is supposed to be the minimum for "humainly" shooting a deer. And yet the creatures were almost brought to extinction by rifles shooting the .44-40 cartridge which on a good day is not even half as powerful as the .44 magnum. Not to mention the number of deer killed by 38-40's .32-20's and even 25-20's.

The laws here do acknowledge that principle a little bit at least, the joule requirements drop from 2000j to 1700j if you use a bullet heavier than 123 grains.

Most shooters here use the smaller / faster rifle combination too. I personally prefer the old timey low & slow designs with a heavy bullet. It's also much safer for the hunter, research here has shown a lot of lead fragments present in the meat in deer from being shot with even bonded rifle bullets, this is being used over in sweden to argue for a complete ban on lead bullets for hunting...

This ain't going to be a problem however if you use a properly alloyed .45-70 cast bullet or any similar caliber that doesn't rely soley on speed & shock to kill, it'll stay mostly intact and just punch a hole through the critter.



The Winchesters do care about OAL

I don't know if you can even modify a M92 to do this.

I have modified mine to accept 1.70" long SWCs, moved the shoulder on the lifter back with a file, then also filed a little on the inside of the cartridge stop. I could still remove more metal on the lifter to make it accept longer rounds I think.

[W.R.Buchanan]

HDS It looks like you jsut beat me to the reply, so please disregard the redundancy.

The "modified Marlin" referrs to the cartridge lifter mod I mentioned above. Those rounds are around 1.710 long and a Stock Marlin is maxed out at about 1.670 OAL, but will feed the longer boolits with the cartridge lifter slightly modified..

It doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the action. I don't think the Rossi will feed anything much longer than a regular .44 Magnum round that is around 1.595 long.

They run into this same problem with the Ruger 77/44 bolt action Rifles. Definately strong enough for anything a .44 could dish out, but you can't feed the longer rounds off the magazine, it is just not long enough..

All of this really matters not as a 250gr SWC at 1600-1700 fps from should easily make your requirement.

Are they actually going to test the round at 100 yds?

IF they are just doing Mass X Velocity for the final word then you could counter with the Taylor method.

Mass x Velocity tends to favor velocity whereas the taylor method tends to favor the diameter of the boolit.

That's why I included the sledge hammer it is about 2.5-3" in diameter at the face, and yet it is nearly 8 times more powerful than a .458 magnum? I do admit that it would take a pretty strong boy to get 30 feet per second out of a sledge hit. But it does illustrate the point that a larger slower boolit can compare favorably with a smaller faster bullet.

Randy

[HDS]

It being actually tested is pretty unlikely, but I would like to comply with the law, it's extremely rigid and specifically says this many joules at this distance. There is no room for argument on my part if the authorities get involved and actually tests my rounds, if they fail to measure up then at best I would get fined, at worst I would get permits withdrawn. Hunting regs are a big deal here, violate them on your own peril.

I used this calculator to figure out what the energy levels would be at 100 yards:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/

I have chronoed loads of my 250gr 503 copies to almost 1800FPS out of my Rossi 92. I don't know what ballistic coefficient the got though, if it's .205" as the Hornady 240 grain XTP then I should meet the requirements. It all seems to depend on the BC of the bullet.

The BC's I found earlier for 240gr seemed to indicate a much lower BC and this I didn't achieve it. Anyone know for sure what the BC is for a 250gr keith bullet?

[Iron Mike Golf]

Lyman #49 shows the 429421 with a BC of .209 for a 245 gr boolit.

A 250 gr boolit with BC of .209 at 1800 fps muzzle velocity comes out to 1214 ft-lbs at 100 yds when I use that calculator.

Since the MV of the Buffalo Bore rounds is 1700 fps, it should be fine in a Rossi 92 as far as stability goes, with a 30 inch twist. I take back what I said earlier about it being marginal at 100 yds. I forgot that the spin rate does not decay with a drop in velocity.