Old powder

[fatelk]

A recent thread on bad powder got me thinking about old powder in general. I have used quite a bit of old powder over the years. I'm much more particular now than I used to be, but I think if one is careful you're pretty safe.

I have several old cans of H4895. They all look and smell good. I have long been planning on using it all up in my M1s.
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm274/fatelk/powder001.jpg
I loaded up a few round and shot them over the chronograph. I had some clean 50's USGI ball ammo for comparison.

LC57- 2663 fps
SL56- 2579 fps
I didn't bring any Greek ammo, but as I recall it clocks in around 2800 fps.

I loaded 48.0 gr. of H4895 in LC68 Match brass, just one of each of the three lots. I was surprised at the difference.
The oldest lot clocked 2606 fps
Middle lot- 2647 fps
Newer lot- 2738 fps!

This was kind of an impromptu test and I didn't take the time to load up more than just a few rounds. I'm curious if the formula has changed a bit over time, or if the powder has started to degrade over the decades. I was also surprised at the lower-than-expected velocities of the old ammo. I know powder longevity has much to do with proper storage and I don't know how this ammo was stored, other than it looked very clean.

Also, this powder is ancient, but appears good. I'm thinking about carefully working up a plinking load to see if I can use it up.
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm274/fatelk/powder003.jpg

[WILCO]

It's like looking at old cars: Pretty cool!

[XWrench3]

i do not have much in the way of old powder. but the thought of it turning and going bad has kept me from buying bulk mil surplus and tear down powder. sometimes you can find some pretty good deals, especially on pull down. but when you think that most of that was most likely made before 1950, it is already darn old. so if you buy up 1 - 8 pound bottle, and it takes you 3-5 years to use it up. the powder will be pushing 70 years old. if you buy more than one, you could end up throwing a lot of dead powder on your lawn. and i do not care how good of a deal you buy it for, it will still be way more expensive than buying fertilizer. my brother inherited my fathers 300 H&H magnum rifle. he still has several boxes of old factory loaded winchester and remington cartridges. we did chrono some of them at one point, and were amazed at the velocity loss due to age. some of the winchester silvertips were down under 2600 fps. and we are thinking that is why the bullets do not open up on deer. dad never had ammo cans. cartridges were stored in a box under his bed.

[captaint]

Love the old prices !!! enjoy Mike

[Bill*]

$2.41 a pound? ouch

[fatelk]

The oldest powder I ever used was in a factory loaded .45 acp round dated 1914. It shot fine and cycled the action, but definitely felt weak.

I know the longevity of smokeless powder has been discussed many times, and I remember someone saying it was good for something like 20 to 40 years, as I recall. Those of us that have long used surplus know it's usable for much longer than that, but does it inevitably lose strength as it ages?

I have a pretty good collection of USGI '06 ammo going back to WWI. One of these days I'm going to have to take a couple samples of each era and send them over the chrono, chart the results.

As to my 4895, I'll use the oldest first and see how it does. I won't toss the empty can in the trash like I used to. Anyone have any idea about how old these cans are?

[wcp4570]

I bought a large container of powder from Gart Brothers sporting goods in Denver in 1978. Don't remember the weight of the container, it was in a large round cardboard container that had been used for a step stool until the lid broke, the powder was inside a plastic bag so it was still sealed. I think I bought it for $10.00 as an open container. The powder was Hodgdon Top Mark and had been out of production for awhile even back then. I could not find a manual with data for the powder so I wrote to Hodgdon and they sent copies from an old Speer manual with a hand written note that said it makes a better pistol powder than it does shotgun, signed by Bruce Hodgdon. The powder loads shown Topmark to fall between Bullseye and Unigue so that has always been my gauge for load development and it works very well. I've developed loads for 38, 357, 41mag, 44special and mag, 45colt and 45 ACP and have shot a lot of loads over the years and still have a lot more powder to load. I don't know how old the powder is but it still shoots very well.

wcp

[Dusty Wheeler]

If it smells "funny" I dump it... Having said that I have powders and primers from the 70's that works just fine. I'm still shooting WWII 30-06 and 45 ACP...

[Balkandom]

I agree with the above. I started reloading in 1980, went in the military in 86, and did not start back serious reloading until about 3 years ago. My father was complaining about a bunch of boxes I had in his workshop. I had no idea what they were until I went to pick them up. It was like a time capsule-powder, primers, bullets. I brought them home and I'm still loading with them, not a single issue with anything.

[MtGun44]

I think the old 4895 was surplus DuPont extruded powder - today it would be IMR 4895.
When that lot ran out, I believe that Hodgdon had a batch of ball powder made to similar
spec - but NOT the same. I suspect that the second and third are that.

Bill