7,62x25 Cast Boolit Problem

[Machodoc]

Does anything here sound familiar? I've cast, loaded, and shot other calibers without having this problem, but these are the first 7,62x25 loads that I've done with boolits that I cast myself.

The problem is that the Tokarev is not cycling completely when the bullet is fired. The casing is not ejecting. Here are some more bits of data:


The round shoots fine and is reasonably accurate.
The rounds cycle pretty well when I rack the slide by hand.
I'm using new Starline casings.
I'm using HP38 powder.
The boolits were cast from WW lead that has worked fine in other loads.
The boolits were cast with a Lee mould for 7,62x25.
The boolits were sized with the Lee sizing die for that caliber.
Both the mould and sizing die are Lee standard.
Boolits were lubed (before and after sizing) with Lee Alox.
Different seating depths were attempted, all within OAL specs. No difference.
Different powder loads attempted, working up from 10% below minimum to right at max. No difference.
Two different Toks tried (Pol and Yugo) ... no difference.
Both of the above cycle properly with surplus rounds.
Tried various crimps ... modest to aggressive ... not any real change.
Have NOT tried crimping with indent yet, but sources seem to suggest that a normal seating crimp should be OK.


OK ... any ideas what's happening? I've done a fair bit of reloading, but haven't had this problem before. I hope it's something common that folks here will recognize right away, but that I've just never run into before. Advice would be greatly appreciated.

[historicfirearms]

I haven't reloaded for this cartridge, but it sounds like you need to try a different powder. I think the load isn't developing enough power to cycle the action completely. The surplus ammo is pretty potent stuff so it may take more pressure to cycle the action completely. If you are using a light boolit that may be part of the problem as well.

[Machodoc]

I plan to try that tomorrow, when I have some light. I'm using HP38 and was working with the data on http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html The boolits I'm casting are ending up about 92.8 grains, so I've used the 93 grain lead round-nose as a guide. That sections shows loads for both HP38 and Win 231 powders (supposedly the same stuff). These loads are all with the same brass that I'm using, so I'm a bit puzzled. I pushed the HP 38 loads to the upper limit and got one split neck. Not where I want to be ... and the gun still didn't cycle properly.

I've seen a reference to a reloader who uses Unique, and I have some of that on hand to try tomorrow. Thanks for the feedback. It's greatly appreciated.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I am using the Lee 313-100-2R and AA #5, I get reliable functioning in an M57 with light loads. Mine starts running at around 5.3 to 5.4 grs of #5. I think the heavier cast boolit gives it a little boost. It also shoots very accurately. I am sizing the boolit to about .313 and lube with Lee 50/50 alox. I am using starline cases and wsp primers.

G

[snuffy]

231/hp-38 ARE the same powder. It is also way too fast for the 7.62 X 25 cartridge. The pressure curve it too sharp to unlock the barrel AND cycle the slide. The recoil spring is also too tough, made for the hot machine gun fodder.

The fastest powder I have used for it is power pistol. My cast load is using WC-820 surplus powder and the lee 100 grain RN boolit. it drops at .310, I size it to .309 My CZ-52 has a .308 bore. Dunno what the charge is for that load, lost the info. You could use AA- #9 powder in that with great success. A max charge of unique might work the action, I doubt it.

[jdgabbard]

Might try loading some other data... Maybe look at 30 Mauser data.... Unique could be good.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I use a Lee factory crimp die in my pps 43

[nwellons]

Please keep us updated. I've been thinking of reloading that one myself since the really cheap surplus is not cheap anymore - and I like to occasionally learn to reload a different caliber.

The Toks are really fun to shoot, too.

[JeffHolt]

Recently loaded some commercial ammo using 90gn XTPs and AA#9. Great powder for the Tokorov. No issues at all. Bullets are .3085 and crimped.

Lee Load date used the AA powders #s 5-9.
Starline reccommends loading a .308 bullet or recommends that you ream the case necks.

[Machodoc]

OK ... here's a quick update, but I plan to post something a bit more thorough soon.

Instead of going entirely by published data, I took a long look at the differences between my cast and sized boolits and those on some surplus rounds. I noticed that the shoulder on my cast stuff was higher up on the cartridge when I had the OAL of my loads equal to that of the surplus round. I experimented with seating the boolits a bit deeper, to match the length of the two rounds at the shoulder, rather than the tip, and found that I could do so while still staying within the minimum overall length of the cartridge. I'm still tweaking this part, but my OAL now is about 1.33

Next, I switched to Unique powder and worked up to loads of 6.0 grains, finding that I was (marginally) getting proper cycling at about 5.5 grains. At 6.0 grains, the rounds still don't feel quite as hot as the mil. surp. ammo, but they are pretty peppy. I actually backed off again to 5.8 grains because I'm getting good performance at that point. I think that I'm getting reasonable accuracy with that powder load (haven't shot from the bench yet), and the brass is landing close enough to find it pretty easily. The brass was beginning to sail pretty far at 6.0 grains, and I suspect that at 6.2 grains (which I haven't tried yet) it's going to get flung into the next county -- just like the surplus stuff. The big difference is that I want to be able to find my Starline brass, and my reloads are for fun shooting, so I'm OK with a wimpier round. If I have a reason why I want more reliability and punch, I'll pump some up or just use S&B factory loads.

[JeffHolt]

Doc,
Are you saying that the bullets Ogive was hitting the bore's rifling? I've had that happen loading 9mm Luger 124 gn LRN with an OAL of 1.25 inches- a pretty standard OAL.

With your Tok ammo you can shorten the OAL even more that the 1.33 you have now but be sure to reduce your charge first and then work up. I have no idea what Unique charges are either safe or adequate to use. It would not be a powder I would consider for the cartridge but that's just my 2 cents.

Our newest commercial cartridge is set at an OAL of 1.270 inches- quite a bit shorter than recommended OALs but we reduced the charge. Still has plenty of sizzle and is stiffer than the commie ammo we tested it against. Function was flawless. No signs of over pressure and my guess is we are in the 1700 fps neighborhood. I'll get it chronoe'd soon.

I was always scheptical about running lead in my Tokarov, I just didn't think it was something worth pursuing but I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.
GL,
Jeff

[HARRYMPOPE]

here is cast in a PPS 43 at 25 yards.its worth loading for.

5g of Bullseye. 311316 (GC) @.310 upper and the 3118 (Plainbase) @.310 lower

10 shot groups

click pic to enlarge

George

[Machodoc]

Are you saying that the bullets Ogive was hitting the bore's rifling? I've had that happen loading 9mm Luger 124 gn LRN with an OAL of 1.25 inches- a pretty standard OAL.


Yes, it seemed to doing that just enough to make the rounds not reliably seat until I set the bullet in a bit deeper into the casing. That was just one factor causing earlier problems.



With your Tok ammo you can shorten the OAL even more that the 1.33 you have now but be sure to reduce your charge first and then work up. I have no idea what Unique charges are either safe or adequate to use. It would not be a powder I would consider for the cartridge but that's just my 2 cents.


Thanks! I always start with a very conservative charge and work up slowly. I found mention of a couple of Tok loads that use Unique, and had some available, so I thought that I'd try it. The info available on the loads was a bit sketchy, so I started low and stepped up slowly. So far, it seems to be working out OK, but I plan to pick up some AA#5 and/or #7 the next time I go to my favorite toy store and try that.



Our newest commercial cartridge is set at an OAL of 1.270 inches- quite a bit shorter than recommended OALs but we reduced the charge. Still has plenty of sizzle and is stiffer than the commie ammo we tested it against. Function was flawless. No signs of over pressure and my guess is we are in the 1700 fps neighborhood. I'll get it chronoe'd soon.


What weight bullet are you using for that cartridge?

Coincidentally, this afternoon I set five rounds at 1.270 with 5.8 grains of Unique and got good results. Nothing untoward going in with the cases or primers on those five, and they seemed to also "have plenty of sizzle," as you put it, though not as hot a round as the commie stuff that I have on hand. That's fine with me. I'm looking for loads that are going to be accurate and function well, but are not necessarily going to be wrist breakers. I think that I'll do some tweaking in that OAL and charge range.



I was always scheptical about running lead in my Tokarov, I just didn't think it was something worth pursuing but I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.


I did a good bit of research into this before starting out, and found that most of the people who posted online about such loads causing leading problems in Tokarevs were just passing on what they'd heard. That doesn't necessarily mean that they were wrong, but only that it was hard to find much first-hand info about results that people were getting.

On the other hand, I found a couple of comments from people who had been shooting cast Tok rounds without any leading problems, and Lee seems to feel that their Alox should be able to guard against that. The Lee mould drops a bullet with two pretty substantial lube grooves, and I lube both before and after sizing ... so the grooves are adequately filled.

Time and repetition will tell, though. Right now, I have what appears to be a safe and properly-functioning charge/bullet/casing combination so I can start looking more closely at accuracy, leading issues, etc. Don't have a chrony available, though. Wish I did. I'll keep you posted.

[Tank56]

I've been having these cycling issues with my CZ-52. reading this I think I might try a hotter primer first, and then just load until proper function or overpressure signs appear.

[jdgabbard]

Out of curiosity, what are most of your barrels slugging at??? I'm gearing up to load for the cz-52, cant find my calipers or what I had previously measured it at. I'm just assuming that .311 is going to be pretty close to what I need, and had planned on trying a few out sized as such.

[JeffHolt]

Harry,
I gotta get myself one of those PPS 43s!
Loks like a lot of fun.

Doc,
We loaded Hornady 90gn XTP's (.309 diameter)
I have acouple of hundred fired cases let over from testing that I plan on using with some #5 and #7 powder. AA#9 works best for a high end load, but you use a lot of it.
Maybe I'll try some some Unique against some AA#5 and compare results.
Jeff

[Machodoc]

I've been having these cycling issues with my CZ-52. reading this I think I might try a hotter primer first, and then just load until proper function or overpressure signs appear.

What powder charge and bullet type are you using with your CZ-52? The idea of going with a hotter primer (I use Winchester small pistol normal) is interesting. I'm getting good results with what I have now, but it would be educational to hear what some of the experienced folks around here have to say.

BTW - I'm not an expert on any of this. I'm just interested and have a fair amount of experience loading stuff that I personally use. My loads are for plinking and recreational target shooting 98% of the time, so I start conservatively, work up the loads gradually, and learn mostly from this empirical experimentation. I also try to research as much as possible before doing something new.

My interest right now is primarily in loads for commbloc weapons. I feel that these have become popular enough that the demand for cheap surplus ammo is driving the prices of that stuff up to where it's not cheap anymore, and where the supplies are going to eventually dry up. I want to end up with safe and reliable Tok and Mak loads for everyday plinking, but also be capable of producing a home-made re-load with good self-defense capability (even though I may only test fire a small number of them).

[Machodoc]

here is cast in a PPS 43 at 25 yards.its worth loading for.


I've got other things ahead of the PPS 43 on my wish list, but every time I look at one of them, or hear someone else mention them, it gets bumped up a notch higher on the list. Without going into details, I have a close friend who works for the government who really is impressed with this firearm--and he's a long way from being an armchair expert. Also, it seems that with a bit of paperwork, a couple of months' wait, and some modest machine work, that stock can be made functional and legal.

[Machodoc]

Doc,
We loaded Hornady 90gn XTP's (.309 diameter)
I have acouple of hundred fired cases let over from testing that I plan on using with some #5 and #7 powder. AA#9 works best for a high end load, but you use a lot of it.
Maybe I'll try some some Unique against some AA#5 and compare results.
Jeff

I'd sure be interested to hear what you find out, and how you feel the powders compare. I don't have a large assortment of powders to choose from, so my experimentation is limited to what I have on hand or what my CFO (aka wife) won't squawk about me buying for entertainment (she's actually very good about those things). Also, the nearest place where I can get a decent assortment of off-the-shelf powder is about 1.5 hours away, so I usually have to combine that with a trip for some other purpose.

You guys are all incredible sources of info, and I really appreciate your open spirit of sharing your knowledge.

[Machodoc]

OK ... here's what I've got that seems to be right about where it should be for my needs:

Bullet mould = Lee 311-93-1R ... sized down to .308 with Lee sizer and lubed (before and after size) with Lee Alox liquid 50/50. This bullet is supposed to drop at 93 grains, but the average that I'm getting is closer to 92.8 grains.

Brass = Starline 7,62x25 (new and once-fired)

OAL = 1.327 to 1.329

Case Bell/Flare = just opened barely enough to get the bullet started into the casing without shaving it.

Crimp = just snug.

Powder charge = Unique 5.9 to 6.0 grain charges. Both work well with no signs of excess pressure on the brass. The heavier load tosses the brass a bit farther, but not all that bad. I'm sure that the load could be made hotter without problems, but that's as far as I need to go for my purposes.

Accuracy = I haven't been able to shoot these from a bench for accuracy yet. It started raining just as I was headed out the door. Rounds that I shot from the offhand position while working with this load promise to yield decent accuracy, though.

Barrel = I've run about 75 rounds of approximately this same load through my Yugo Tokarev while tweaking the charge and OAL. No sign of any fouling at all. In fact, the bore may look a bit better than when I started out.

As usual, these are my results with my loading gear, powder, and firearm. Your results may be totally different, so proceed with the usual caution, etc.

[jdgabbard]

Machodoc, post so photos of your groups when you get a chance to check it for accuracy, off hand, or off bench...

[Machodoc]

Machodoc, post so photos of your groups when you get a chance to check it for accuracy, off hand, or off bench...

Sure ... will be glad to do so, but keep in mind that whatever I post is going to be shot by an old guy with developing cataracts and a hand that's not as steady as it once was. Any lack of tight pattern, therefore, will be more attributable to the shooter than to the cartridge load. Also, I still shoot offhand from the old-school one-hand-on-hip and side body profile style that I was taught in the mid-1950s. You'd probably find it amusing, especially since my side body profile presents an even bigger target these days!

:lol:

[Machodoc]

If you place your left hand on your left hip, that's the shooting stance I was taught (no ... it's not part of doing the hokie pokie).

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/id_pistol_m1911_700_06.jpg

[jdgabbard]

I'm very familiar with that position, as well as others taught even earlier. I taught my son to shoot rifles from the seated position, rather than the prone supported....

[Machodoc]

15 rounds at 10 yards, off-hand, slow fire.

OK ... as requested, here's a photo of the results that I'm getting from my reloads. I've already posted the basic info about the loads themselves, but wanted to add that I settled on 5.9 grains of Unique as being the best for my purposes. I may drop that back down to 5.8 grains again, to help keep the brass in the same zip code, but I'm not sure. Wish I had a chrony available.

I haven't tried any of the AA powders yet, and they may be better, but I've got a bunch of Unique on hand, so I'll probably load with that for awhile. I think it's a good load.

The lack of a really tight group is probably less due to the loads than it is to the inability of the shooter. These were fired with my Polish TTC. I think it's substantially better-made than the rest of the Tokarev variants, with the Romanian coming in a bit behind it. The Yugo, which so many people love (mainly because of the longer mag and grip), seems to me to be the clunkiest and roughest of the bunch. The trigger on the Yugo is going to take some work to get it to where it doesn't creep and feel like you're crunching through a grain of sand just before it fires.