Lee 309-113 "soup can" accuracy

[KevMT]

I've been having a lot of fun lately with the 30 cal Lee 113g "soup can" mold from the group buy. In an 06 using 10.5g of 700X the accuracy of this bullet is just amazing. I just took a new shooter out yesterday and with a scope and biopod on the rifle she was nailing empty 12 gauge shells with this load at about 40 or so yards with boring regularity. I've also found that this load out to somewhere about 90 yards is DEADLY on gophers/Ground squirrels. The funny thing is a couple of times I have tried to push the envelope a little by shooting groups at 120-150 yards and the accuracy goes to pot really fast. Something on the order of 4-5" groups. Could this be because the bullets are becoming trans-sonic? Or are they just getting so slow that they are loosing stability in general? I expected the accuracy to degrade at further distances but I'm really pretty surpised at how much difference a few yards can make.

Kev

[felix]

Yes, Kev, they very well could be becoming trans-sonic! Prove or dis-prove this by shooting a little harder with a slower powder, like 4756, say 13 grains for starters and move up until accuracy falls off, and then back down a grain. Also, it could be that your 10 twist is causing a twist failure using that 700X. Shoot same load in a 308 with 12 twist, for example. The group buy of the Lyman style 150 grainer rounded wadcutter will give much more yardage especially with a 10 twist. ... felix

[KevMT]

Hi Felix,

Yep I wanted one of the 311440 group buys so bad I felt like a little kid at Christmas wanting a "red rider 200 shot repeating carbine with a compass in the stock and a thing that tells time". But alas after getting in on the 6.5 gang mold the $ factor kicked in. I'll just have to live vicariouly through the reports of others when they start testing the boolits.
Kev

[Leftoverdj]

Hi Felix,

Yep I wanted one of the 311440 group buys so bad I felt like a little kid at Christmas wanting a "red rider 200 shot repeating carbine with a compass in the stock and a thing that tells time". But alas after getting in on the 6.5 gang mold the $ factor kicked in. I'll just have to live vicariouly through the reports of others when they start testing the boolits.
Kev

Easily fixed, Kev. I went the other way and got in on 311440. When the moulds get in, I'll swap you 20 pounds or so as cast for bullets from the short 6.5 mould.

[KevMT]

Easily fixed, Kev. I went the other way and got in on 311440. When the moulds get in, I'll swap you 20 pounds or so as cast for bullets from the short 6.5 mould.

Leftoverdj: Sounds like a deal to me :grin:
Kev

[Buckshot]

...........Kev my first real serious use of the Lee C309-113F was when I lived in the country. Because of the feeding of livestock and the fact that we dryland farmed oats, there was plenty of ground squirrels around. With a 22RF a headshot was naturally a 100% sure thing. Body shots in various places were iffy (usually fatal, but I wanted confirmation then!).

Since we lived in a canyon, sound was (lack of) important. I worked up a load for my 03/A1 Springfield with the boolit over 12-13 grs of SR4756 which was easily minute of ground squirrel, shooting tidy sub, and 1" grps at 50 yards. I had drilled out the apurture on the Buffington sight to .100" and with it set on 300 yards all you had to do was put the squirrel on top of the post to 50 yards. With iron sights 50 yards was getting tough to discern the critters in the weeds as they went about their business.

A shooting buddy using a M94 Winchester 30-30 with a Leupold VII 3x9 showed me some groups he'd fired off the bench which ran an inch or a bit more (one or two might get out a little) at 100 yards. I found it pretty fantastic results for several reasons. One was that it was from a levergun. Most of all was the fact that the velocity was 2100 fps!!! His load was 21.0grs of H4198 + dacron.

..............Buckshot

[KevMT]

"Most of all was the fact that the velocity was 2100 fps!!!

"2100 fps!!! Now THAT with the big meplat on the soup can would put some serious smackdown on a ground squirrel.

Felix didn't you work up a high speed (2000+fps)load for the 30.06 with the soup can and 4198 that shot pretty well?

Kev

[David R]

I shoot the 309 113 soup can in my 32-20 contender, and it will do 1 1/4" regularly. 10.2 grains SR 4759. OAL is most important in this gun. I tried it in my enfield, it shot well, but there are better ones for that rifle.

[BCB]

The ol’ soup can rears it flat meplat again!!! I just had to look at some of the groups I shot with that little rascal, so to my 30-30 Winchester folder I went. I found 68 different groups using a T/C Super 14” and a ‘scoped Model ’94. I did break the 2000 fps with 3 different loads, two with the ’94 using SR-4759 and WC-844 and one with the T/C using WC-680.

As previously mentioned, groups at 50 yards from both pieces were mostly at or less than an inch. Some were a bit smaller and pretty dang impressive. Accuracy at 100 yards began to diminish and at 150 yards, I was having trouble rattling my 5.5”x11” steel pendulum with any consistency. Although I did shoot some M.O.A. groups at 100 yards, they most were at or slightly less than 1.5” Still not too bad, but both T/C and ’94 will do much better with the 311041. So I know it isn’t the weapons or the shooter. (!!!)

WC-844 probably performed the best from the ’94. Velocities ranged from 1513 fps with Red Dot to 2149 fps with WC-844. Many of the 100 yard groups were around 1.25”. The fast burners, SR-4759, H-110, WC-680, and Unique (I hate that powder—it is much too much overrated IMHO) performed the best in the T/C Contender. I have many groups at 50 yards that are less than 1.0 inch with the Contender. Velocities in this short barrel ranged for 1410 fps for the Unique load to 2081 fps with the WC-680 powder. But at 100 yards, things began to open up with the 14” barrel. Don’t know why ‘cause it shoots the 311041’s like a house-a-fire.

Most of the bullets were shot “as cast” with only the check sized to 0.310” to crimp it in place. I did heat treat the bullets by using the oven and then dropping them into ice water. The last 250+ bullets I heat treated came in at a BHN of around 30 or a SAECO of 11.5. These were tested with a SAECO tester. This was a GOOD batch of heat treated bullets. Things must have been just right to achieve that BHN. I usually get 26+.

Regardless, it was an interesting project, but I haven’t shot any for some time. The darn 311041’s are just so much more accurate and it is fun rattling that pendulum at 200 yards…BCB

[felix]

Kev, my mainstay load with the soupcan boolit is 23 grains N120 in 308W with a 12 twist, and a normal rifle primer. N120 is a single base powder, small tube type, between the slower 4227s and the faster 4198s. Probably very close to WW680 in speed, but having less power and much better ignition. ... felix

[TCLouis]

BCB
Mind posting some of that powder data for the Contender?

[35remington]

When I used to lurk, rather than post, on the old Shooters board I noticed all the good reports of accuracy with the Lee C113F, which the guys there called the Soup Can. I was pleased that I had stumbled across this bullet while trying to make a small game load for my '06. I found that when using 9.0 grains of Red Dot, 700X, W231 or Bullseye velocities were similar and right at 1550 fps. Accuracy was near an inch for five at 100 yards, and when my rifle was zeroed for 150 jacketed the Soup Can would hit at the thick/thin junction of the duplex crosshairs when the power was set at 4X. Rezeroing the rifle was not needed.

I shot a lot of small game with that load, including some bigger critters and one unfortunate coyote when I didn't have time to switch shells. It worked fine on all, causing little meat damage, but killed small game and varmints very, very well. I couldn't ask for more, and they're cheap to shoot.

Increasing the powder charges to the 12-13 grain levels always opened groups. Powders like 4198, 2400 and 4759 gave very fine results at higher velocities, but I liked the mild report, economy and easy metering of 9.0/W231 and the Lee bullet, so that's what I've stuck with. No regrets.

[KevMT]

Increasing the powder charges to the 12-13 grain levels always opened groups. Powders like 4198, 2400 and 4759 gave very fine results at higher velocities, but I liked the mild report, economy and easy metering of 9.0/W231 and the Lee bullet, so that's what I've stuck with. No regrets.

35 Rem
I agree. I happened to stumble on the above 700x load on more or less my first try at reloading the soup can based on a load suggested on the old shooters board and have just had a lot of fun plinking and walloping ground squirrels with it. Like Buckshot I found that it gives a more definate hit accompanied by a very noticable THUD when one is centered. Anyway like yourself the economy and ease of making a large volume these loads are what makes them really fun.

I suppose in due time I will not be able to contain myself and will try to push the velocity limit with 700x and other powders. Most interesting is a 2300 fps load with unique which is listed in the lyman manual for the pointed 113 grain #311359.

Kev

[Bear4570]

I've been having a lot of fun lately with the 30 cal Lee 113g "soup can" mold

I love this little bullet, I've been shooting it for years in my .30 carbine under H110. Always had good accuracy and knocks the stuffin out of small critters.

[sundog]

Wow! Tried the 9.0/231 (actually SMP231 - the surplus stuff) in BOTH 06 (10 twist) and .308 (12 twist) last evening. Pretty impressive little groups at 50 yards. Good thing I have a supply of these already lubed and checked. Fun round to shot! sundog

[35remington]

Roy Dunlap, in an American Rifleman that dated, I think, from the late 70's or very early 80's, penned a piece called "Shoot Cheap" where he gave details of some of his low velocity loads using cheap bullets and light charges of powder, intended as practice loads for frequent shooters. That was the first listing in print that I could recall that used W231 in rifle cases. I think he used 8.0 grains with the 100 Speer Plinker or Hornady Short Jacket in the '06 and .308.

I got REALLY cheap reject Short Jacket (100 grain half jacket) bullets from the Hornady plant, and I had OK but not great accuracy using that bullet with W231. Store bought wasn't any better than the rejects. Problem was that when using it on small game, the lead point expanded and I had two piece squirrels and instantly gutted rabbits.

So, I figured maybe a non expanding bullet was in order, and noticed the Lee offering. Somehow the lighter bullet seemed more appropriate for small game and practice/plinking, so I tried it, and a lot of powders worked fine. 10 grains of the various shotgun/pistol powders all worked and were very accurate, but it was just a little faster than I wanted. I backed it off to nine grains, and the speed of 1550 has sorta become my benchmark for a small game load. Better trajectory than the long rifle, not so fast as to mess up edible critters. My first bullets were all cast of linotype, and the hard bullet worked great. I later discovered that when cast of unhardened wheelweights the bullet expanded on the closer shots and messed up more meat, so I took to oven hardening them when cast of wheelweights. The Soup Can will spank any of the jacketed plinker bullets in accuracy from my guns-group size is about 70 percent smaller.

My first Lee double cavity mould for the Soup Can would group the bullets from one cavity noticeably better than the other, so I kept them segregated. The less accurate cavities' bullets were used for plinking or shot through my M1 carbine using 2400, and to my surprise it fed them flawlessly. Even the "reject" bullets shot as well in the carbine as it could shoot. My second mould grouped both cavities equally well.

I lated noticed on the Shooters board that a lot of guys used charges with the Soup Can that were similar to what I was using with some of the shotgun powders. Word of a good bullet design like this one spreads fast.

I just bought another mould for this bullet. Would be a shame if I were to run out of them.

[StarMetal]

Not sure when Winchester come out with 231, but it's predessor was 230. Wouldn't it had been 230 back in the 70's?

Joe

[35remington]

Starmetal, I'm sure you're right about that, since 230 was around in the '70's, so this was probably a late '70's or early eighties piece if I remember correctly. I started loading 231 for myself in the mid eighties. I lived in Schuyler, Nebraska and had a neighbor that would pick up reject bullets from the Hornady plant on his way to Ogallala when visiting his family, and he turned me on to the practice of getting cheap jacketed bullets. He was a mortician, and I learned more about dead people than I ever wanted to know. Hell of a guy, though, and we had common interests in handloading and casting bullets. I tried 231 with the Lee Soup Can bullet around 1991, according to my loading notes.

If you're ever in Ogallala, Nebraska, and happen to keel over, go to the Draucker mortuary and get Craig. He'll fix you right up.

[Bret4207]

35 Rem- Isn't it funny the way morticians are always of the mind, " Hey, let me show this something interesting on this guy." Man., I don't WANT to see! I'm twisted enough from the bodies I been around in the Corps, fire dept, job and 9/11. These guys that do it for a living got a screw loose. Good $$$, used to be at least.

On the Soup Can: I've been using the Lyamn 311316GC for 25 years in 30 and 32 (.314) cal rifles and pistols. Although I'd like maybe 10 gr more wt for the 32WCF rifles, I'm totaly satisfied with the shape for hunting small game. If pushed above 1600 fps it's really too rough on body shot tree rats, but will anchor anything up to an Eastern Coyote (50 lbs+) with a body shot within it's range. Quite accurate out of my Savage 23 bolt gun too. There's a group buy starting for a .314 revolter boolit and the suggestion of the Soup Can in .314 came up. The design will not be the Soup Can, but the profile of the nose will be close to the SC and 311316. It'll be a 6 banger.

The shape of the SC and 311316 reminds me of Veral Smiths vaunted WFN designs. Maybe leaning towards the LFN shape, but compare and you'll see the similarities. Many guys have reported disappointing results with the WFN at longer ranges. An ambigous term I suppose, but IIRC this was considered 100 yds plus. As with most "wadcutter" shapes best accuracy is found within 100 yds or maybe even 75 depnding on the shape, platform and load. However, there are exceptions. I've seen photos of near Soup Can shaped bullets used in Schuetzen competition at 200 yds. And lets not forget the fabled 358009 which I have never heard of being thought of as a short range design. It may be that a bit more wt is needed to up the BC if we want to use them at longer ranges. I suppose the boolit could also be suffering from over sabilization, but I'll let BA and Starmetal argue that out.

[Bass Ackward]

I suppose the boolit could also be suffering from over sabilization, but I'll let BA and some of the others here argue that out. All that higher math makes me dizzy.

Bret,

Argue? Mwaaaaaa? :grin:

You can reduce any mind numbing, thought process down to childs play.

Just stick your hand out of the window going down the highway and play the vertical / fist / knife edge thing slowly angling your hand. This simulates a bullet rotating with a flat nose that is not spinning perfectly true for what ever reason. You will quickly see what BC does for or against you.

The problem for most folks is translating that information for cast bullets.

Breech seating a bullet so it is perfectly aligned and supported with a meplat that remains perpendicular to the bore has a lot better chance at longer range than shooting a bullet Keith style (undersized) where the bullet obturates, (slumps) in an unpredictable fashion slightly angling the meplat. Most people see this with accuracy to some range where they have the velocity to stabilize. Then total loss just a few feet farther. So a smaller meplat definately helps here.

[Maven]

Oddly enough, I've never tried the "soupcan" in the .30-30, but it does shoot well in my '06 and even better in my K-31, which surprised me. Also, for those who disparage Lee products ("Lee: The Company You Love to Hate"), I purchased 2 of the single cavity 113gr. molds from Lee (from their surplus page) and find they cast within 1 gr. of ea. other and drop perfect bullets.

[sundog]

Tried Felix's 23.0/N120. Nice, zippy little load, for sure!

Got a couple surplus powder loads for y'all, too. Makes CHEAP shootin'! 16.0/H108 and 22.0/H116. Both of these were shot successfully in .308 yesterday. Just work up or down a little to tweak it, and you'll have a good cheap surp powder load. Neat little boolit! sundog

[KCSO]

Aother satisfied soup can user here...
I am shooting 4.5 of Red Dot for my pest load in an Argie with peep sights. I have one group that I shot offhand at 25 yards that put 3 shots touching. At 50 off a bench the load runs right at an inch for 5 and is deadly on cats and possums.

[felix]

Keep in mind that H108 is a WC820 variant, and H116 is a WC680 variant. So, if you got those two latter powders use Sundog's loads as he listed as starters. ... felix