Case forming load - Winchester 1895 30-03

[Gazz]

I have a Winchester 1895 rifle in 30-03 that has some serious excessive headspace - it exceeds .035". I have thought that I can load some light lead bullet loads leaving the bullet a little on the long side and the shooting them to move the shoulder forward. The cases would then be for use in this rifle only. I have a bunch of .30 caliber cast bullets in various weights that I bought at a yardsale that I can use but have no idea how much or which powder to use. I do not know how much bullet weight would be a factor in light loads but I will probably use the heaviest I have to get the overall length up there. I am not a bullet caster other than maxi balls for my muzzle loader although I do have some moulds and a sizer and I will have some other questions on that (bullet casting) in another thread. So does anybody have any loads or advice for me? Thanks!

[runfiverun]

the nose of the boolit should engrave in the rifling any way.
just go out as far as you can chamber and de-chamber.
something like 16 grs of 2400 or 10 grs of unique will work just fine with anything from 150 -200 grs in weight.

[Wayne Smith]

What he said. I believe that when the change was made from the 30-03 to the 30-06 the barrels were pulled and cut back and re-chambered. I believe that the -06 is a couple thousands shorter than the -03. This is coming from reading I did years ago, I believe Hatcher's notebook.

[rexherring]

I use a 170 Lee with 10 grs of Unique for almost all my case forming .30 cal. I do anneal the neck area especially on older brass to prevent splits.

[elk hunter]

With that much headspace rather than use 30-06 brass, I would use 35 Whelen brass and size them in a 30-06 die until the bolt would just close. Or if I couldn't find any Whelen brass I'd neck 06 brass up to something over 30 caliber and then size them back.

You will also want to check the bore and groove diameter on your rifle. My Model 95 30-03 wouldn't shoot worth a hoot until I checked and found it was .304 X .312 and I switched to .312 diameter bullets.

[flounderman]

I don't think there is any difference in the 30-03 and the 30-06 case. the difference was the bullet. As I remember the 03 was a heavier, round nose bullet. the throating was probably changed. Your rifle has probably developed headspace. You can get by with seating the bullet as long as it will go and still close and lock. The object is to hold the head hard against the bolt face so the force of the primer can't move the case forward, or back the primer out before pressure swells the case. As long as the cases will chamber and extract, once you have them formed, I would only partially neck size, leaving a part of the neck, unsized. Being as it is a lever action, it may require more sizing but as long as you leave some of the neck unsized, you won't be setting the shoulder back.

[Gazz]

Thanks for all your inputs!
According to what I have read, the difference between 30-03 and 30-06 is the is the bullet weight and the length of the case neck, the 06 being about .070" shorter. I believe the 30-03 bullet was 220gr, a carry over from the 30-40 Krag round.
Ideally, I would pull the barrel and take some material off the breech end but I have to many other projects to deal with.

[cag215]

I always heard that 280 Rem ammo is built on the 30-03 case head space specs.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/280%20Remington%20-%207mm%20Express.pdf

[Echo]

I vote for expanding with a 32 (maybe 8mm) spud, then gradually sizing the neck back down until the case will just enter the chamber. Once you think you have it, check by placing some masking tape on the base of the case. If it still chambers, you necked down too far, so try again.

[Gazz]

I am not understanding the purpose of increasing the neck diameter to move the shoulder forward. The .35 Whelan and the 30-06 both share the same shoulder location - the headspace gauge for either is the same. From what I have read, the 30-03 shares the same headspace. Was this recommended to sort of move the shoulder forward in steps? I think it would only move half the shoulder forward (or at least open up that portion of the shoulder) and the rear half would still have to be fireformed. Since I will be shooting .30 caliber boolits, why open the neck up and then shrink it down again? I do understand work hardening and annealing. I'll slug the bore an stick with a .30 caliber neck.
I have never read anything about the .280 specs coming from the 30-03. There is about a .1" difference in shoulder location between the .280 and 30-06, the .280 being the shorter of the two. This would mean moving the shoulder even more than with a 30-06 case.
Thanks for the load data.

[Wayne Smith]

By necking up and then back down gradually until the case just chambers you are creating a small artificial neck. When the case is fireformed this becomes the new neck.

Flounderman, you may be right. Yes, the 30-30 bullet was the 220 Krag bullet carried over to the new case and rifle. The Germans came out with a spitzer (copying the Swiss) and we switched over to that, in a lighter bullet. Rechambering was probably recutting the throat, but had to take some off the barrel because the new bullet was shorter.

[cag215]

I have never read anything about the .280 specs coming from the 30-03. There is about a .1" difference in shoulder location between the .280 and 30-06, the .280 being the shorter of the two. This would mean moving the shoulder even more than with a 30-06 case.
Thanks for the load data.


Minimum headspace on the 280 is 0.0513 longer than the 30-06.....The shoulder starts at 1.650 on the 30-06 and 1.750 on the 280, the 280 is 0.1 longer

[Gazz]

Cag, I see my mistake now. You are right. Necking up a .280 case may do it providing the greater length for headspacing and a longer case to perhaps come closer to the original 30-03 length. I may have a few of those around here too. It would also be easier to keep the cases segregated from standard 30-06 cases.

[Dutchman]

I have a Winchester 1895 rifle in 30-03 that has some serious excessive headspace - it exceeds .035". I have thought that I can load some light lead bullet loads leaving the bullet a little on the long side and the shooting them to move the shoulder forward. The cases would then be for use in this rifle only. I have a bunch of .30 caliber cast bullets in various weights that I bought at a yardsale that I can use but have no idea how much or which powder to use. I do not know how much bullet weight would be a factor in light loads but I will probably use the heaviest I have to get the overall length up there. I am not a bullet caster other than maxi balls for my muzzle loader although I do have some moulds and a sizer and I will have some other questions on that (bullet casting) in another thread. So does anybody have any loads or advice for me? Thanks!

I would be curious as to how you determined this .035" measurement beyond the correct .30-03 headspace specification?

If we accept that .035" dimension then this would indicate a severe mechanical defect within this rifle. Such a severe defect needs to be addressed instead of trying to adapt a modified cartridge case to fill up the space that shouldn't be there in the first place. To continue making attempts to fire this rifle without so much as a cursory inspection by a qualified gunsmith is woefully unsafe and irresponsible. This forum should promote even a minimum standard of safe firearm handling and this does not meet that minimum standard, IMO.

The 1895 Winchester uses a vertically sliding lock that intersects the bolt in order to lock it in place. Similar to the 1886, 1892 and 1894 Winchesters. There are more than a couple parts interacting that sustain wear especially when battered with cartridges like .30-06. The sliding block is usually the part that sustains the most visible wear. The chance that this .30-03 rifle has been mis-fired with .30-06 cartridges is very high as the case is the same but the '06 being .070" shorter, according to Hatcher. The .30-06 1895 Winchesters were known to spread the receiver walls due to pressure of the '06 cartridge. It was a little too much cartridge for the design. I owned a '06 1895 Winchester so I'm somewhat familiar with the issues involved.

Dutch

[plainsman456]

When you neck a case to a next larger size it creates a false shoulder for the case to hit the shoulder junction in the chamber.
You can use 30-06 brass to do it or any of the others.
Like you said just make sure that it is marked for this rifle only.

[Gazz]

The headspace was measured, rather attempted to be measured, by a friend who at the time was a qualified gunsmith. He ran his own shop building custom rifles and general repair work. We first tried a standard go, no go, and field gauge set and the action would close on all of them. He then brought out a interesting little device that was an adjustable headspace gauge with a micrometer type feature built in. We arbitrarily chose a setting and tried it in the rifle which swallowed it. Then we opened it all the way (and if I recall correctly, it was .035" excessive headspace in the fully opened position) and tried that in the rifle which also closed easily on the gauge. When I first got the rifle, I shot a few commercial 30-06 rounds in it only to see the primers nearly halfway out and that is why I took it to my friend. Examination of the rifle internals shows no obviously deformed or worn parts. The receiver is not bowed or spread out as best I can tell. I shot 30-06 in it since everything I read said that a rifle chambered for 30-03 could safely shoot 30-06. when I saw the backed out primers, I stopped, took it to my friend and then put it away to figure out later what to do with it.

[Wayne Smith]

Mechanism checked for wear.

Excessive headspace confirmed.

Rifle safe to fire confirmed?

Two choices, form brass for this elongated chamber.

Pull barrel, cut off and re-chamber to correct dimensions.

Is this an adequate summary of your choices?

[Dutchman]

Examination of the rifle internals shows no obviously deformed or worn parts.

Can't tell you the number of times I've heard this only to find the person wouldn't know what to look for in the first place.


Then we opened it all the way (and if I recall correctly, it was .035" excessive headspace in the fully opened position) and tried that in the rifle which also closed easily on the gauge.

So it has in excess of .035" as determined by the unknown gunsmith...

I would highly suggest a gunsmith qualified and experienced with 1895 Winchesters. This situation is like a doctor treating symptoms instead of diagnosing the problem and correcting the problem. This rifle has a problem that has yet to be identified.

Dutch

[leadman]

From what I have read on the Win. 95 is was designed for the original loading of the 30-03 and 30-06. The original load for the 30-06 was a 150gr bullet at 2,700 fps, not 3,000 fps like most modern ammo. I would use M-1 Garand spec ammo once the gun is fixed.
This is not the first of these rifles that this problem has come up with excessive headspace. I would take it to a gunsmith familar with this rifle like Dutchman said and have it checked out.
There were more articles in the old American Rifleman magazines than what you see now. I have these magazine that go back to the early 1930s and really enjoy reading them. Much more info than new mags.

If everything mechanical checks out and it still has excessive headspace the 280 Rem brass as stated should work fine. Fireform it with COW and then trim to length.

[Gazz]

Thanks again for the useful information. I have not located any .280 brass in my stuff so I will use some virgin Norma 30-06 brass. Do I need to use a filler in the cases since the powder charge is so small?

[geargnasher]

I'd take a look at post #18 again and do some pondering.

If things prove out, you can form brass from .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, or .35 Whelen depending on how tight or sloppy your chamber neck is.

Gear

[HORNET]

The better question would be: Was the headspace checked using a headspace gauge for the .30-03 or the .30-06? Headspace gauges for the .30-03 aren't common. I haven't looked REAL hard for chamber drawings for the .30-03, but they may not have kept the same dimension when they shortened the .30-03 by .070" to create the .30-06. That might do a great deal to explain the poor accuracy reported when firing the .30-06 cartridge in the .30-03 rifles. Note: using the slightly longer .270 brass to form cases should get the correct .30-03 case length, others would likely have short necks.