Model 15-3 Binding and Leading

[ColColt]

I acquired a LNIB S&W Model 15-3 not long back and haven't had much of a chance to shoot it. Today was the second time. Like the first, I encountered a couple of problems. First, the cylinder wanted to bind upon rotation when using single action since I was testing some loads. Several rounds would not rotate and I pulled them to see what could be wrong but noticed nothing. It was difficult to get the cylinder open to remove it.

Problem number two is that it seems to lead the forcing cone and cylinders with several different loads. I used the 150 gr SWC(wheel weights) with BAC lube and sized to .358" since the throats measured (with pin gauge) .357" and I had no .357" size die. I can't imagine the .358" boolits causing it to lead. The loads were 4.5 gr of Universal and the same for 231 and 5 gr of Unique. Accuracy in all were excellent when you could get the cylinder to rotate properly.

I didn't feel a burr around the firing pin hole and the extractor rod wasn't loose since it happened on the first six nor was anything under the extractor star.

After coming home I took a factory 135 gr Speer round to see how it would work and just plucked out two to try. One of them wouldn't rotate so, I don't feel it was my reloads with a possible high primer. Any ideas as to tackle these problems? It's almost like there's just not quite enough clearance between the recoil shield and the case head...or so it acts that way at any length.

[plainsman456]

Get a set of feeler gauges and check the clearance between the shield and cylinder,then using some dummy ammo check the same gap.
Seems it may have been tweeked sometime in the past.

[beagle]

Sounds like somebody has been tinkering. There are some very thin steel washers that take up any cylinder play. Some may have been misplaced in cleaning along the line. Don't know where you find them. #2 son had a Model 28 that displayed the same symptoms and we never did correct it. A good "smith" can fix it easy though. One wasn't available at the time./beagle

[williamwaco]

One possible cause of that symptom is loading bullets unsized.

A fat bullet in a thick walled case can produce a loaded round that is too fat to completely seat in the cylinder.

Try several rounds in the same chamber select one that chambers easily and one that does not, I expect you will find the one that does not is too fat.


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[ColColt]

No tinkering, beagle. I know the guy and he doesn't know the first thing about tinkering. There's no problem with cylinder play. It locks up tight as Ft. Knox. The problem, or so it seems with the rotation, is not enough space between recoil shield and case head. A guy at the range came over to chat who had a Model 14 in 38 Special and I asked if I could take that same round and try it in his and there was no problem with rotation all the way around.

No bullets were unsized. They all had to pass through the size die in order to be lubed.

[leftiye]

Sounds like somebody has been tinkering. There are some very thin steel washers that take up any cylinder play. Some may have been misplaced in cleaning along the line. Don't know where you find them. #2 son had a Model 28 that displayed the same symptoms and we never did correct it. A good "smith" can fix it easy though. One wasn't available at the time./beagle

I just got some - "endshake bearings" from Brownell's. as beagle said washers, very narrow, .002 and .004 inch thick. Your problem makes me wonder if there is insufficient headspace and excessive front to rear play in the cylinder (endshake). This would allow the cylinder to bind up when fired, the expanded cases would hold the case head against the breech face. Does your cylinder gap or headspace gap close when the cylinder is pushed forward or back?

Sounds like what you've got is insufficient headspace. Headspace is taken up by the ejector star. Headspace is insufficient if the extractor is too thin. Remedy is new ejector star ground to correct thickness, and refitted (big PITA) - There's a lot of grinding on the star(or fingers) that sometimes needs to be done by someone with a clue, or it's wasted effort and money.

[ColColt]

The headspace measures .060"(without a cartridge in the cylinder). I think that's minimum with .068" being about max. There is zero end shake. This thing is tight. You can't push the cylinder fore and aft. There's no binding upon firing it's just when you try to cock the hammer to rotate the cylinder.

[runfiverun]

and since it only does it with cartridges in the cylinder.
have you tried it with empty cases?
if it binds with empty's, the clearance between the cylinder and frame is too tight.

[Mk42gunner]

The headspace measures .060"(without a cartridge in the cylinder). I think that's minimum with .068" being about max. There is zero end shake. This thing is tight. You can't push the cylinder fore and aft. There's no binding upon firing it's just when you try to cock the hammer to rotate the cylinder.

You don't need endshake bearings, they are to take up excess space between the crane and cylinder. .060" is on the tight side of normal for headspace.

Before doing any modifications, check the barrel to cylinder gap; as you increase headspace, you must decrease the b/c gap, there has to be enough room for the cylinder to move or you will have to work on both ends.

It has been about twenty years since I went through an Armorer's course that included S&W revolvers; but the way to correct your problem is to file 1-2 thousandths off the end of the crane. This will increase the headspace and decrease the b/c gap, in theory allowing the cylinder to cycle easier with cases in the chambers.

If you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself; it shouldn't take a skilled revolver armorer or gunsmith very long to do. Just where to find one of those individuals now that most people are using bottomfeeders, I don't know; but I wouldn't let just any jackleg work on a good gun like yours.

I would get the headspace set where the gun will cycle right before I worried too much about the leading; when cylinders bind, funny things happen.

Robert

[Frosty Boolit]

Tha happened to me once with a pre-model 10. The culprit was a loose ejector rod and the more the cylinder rotated the more it would unscrew and tighter it got. The guy at the range was sure it was the "reloads".

[quack1]

Tha happened to me once with a pre-model 10. The culprit was a loose ejector rod and the more the cylinder rotated the more it would unscrew and tighter it got. The guy at the range was sure it was the "reloads".

+1 I have a M-19 that did that, drop of locktite fixed it.

[243winxb]

A loose ejector rod. Clean the underside of the ejector star and its mating surface on the cylinder. Unburnt powder is often the culprit.< I like these. Look for a high spot on the cylinder face. Gap should be between .004" to .009"

[ColColt]

I put six spent cartridges in the cylinder and turned it with each and there is no binding. I put six new ones in and no binding. I initially thought maybe the bullet was jumping the crimp and that was one of the first things I checked while at the range and it wasn't a problem. Bullets won't usually just the crimp with 4.5 gr of Universal anyway and I had a good roll crimp.

I can't measure the barrel to cylinder gap as my gauges aren't thin enough. Holding it up to a light source, you can just barely see a gap-almost undetectable and I would say probably no more than a few thousands.

The ejector rod is not loose so, I think I can rule that out. The gun was clean before I went to the range and I always take a couple Q-tips to clean under the star and the cylinder where it rests. The recoil shield was as clean as it ever would be but, there would be no lead there anyway. I've run out of reasons to this problem. Had it been a somewhat high primer I wouldn't have thought a factory round would have caused binding but it did...just before lockup with the round indexed for firing.

[runfiverun]

my 625 was similar, super tight with some loaded rounds in it.
the issue was my cartridge oal, the ogive of the boolit was hitting in the cylinder throats, holding the cases out just enough to drag.
i had to spin the cylinder by hand to force the rounds to seat, then everything freed up.

[Mal Paso]

Cylinder Gap

You need .004" to.006" or a grain of powder will stop rotation.

You're in great shape. More Metal is better than less. The barrel was most likely cut too long but study it well before you trim the barrel. Make sure the crane and cylinder line up be in the right place. Found my best gun that way. !4 year old Anaconda that hadn't shot half a box of ammo.

[Mal Paso]

I wouldn't worry about leading until you get the clearances fixed. A tight cylinder will mess up timing too.

Chances you got a very nice gun with a fixable mistake. Find a Gunsmith that is good at revolver barrel instillation.

[daniel lawecki]

Had this happen in my smith yesterday. I had a few high primers in my last batch of reloads

[ColColt]

Mal Paso-the problem is not barrel to cylinder clearance. I have clearance there. The problem, if that's the case and I'm doubting it, is clearance between the recoil shield or breach as some call it, and the cartridge head.

I'm beginning to think a few slightly (.001-.002") high primers may have causes it. Problem is there's just so far you can go seating them. I did see rub marks from the recoil shield on one of the primers. I suppose it's possible, as was mentioned, that a few of the cases were a tad too long and with the sharp shoulder on the SWC hitting against the cylinder ridge could have been enough to have the case head pushed just enough rearward to cause the binding. Oddly enough, I've never had this happen before with other revolvers but again I may not have had one with tight tolerances.

[beagle]

Did the previous owner have problems with it? It just don't sound like your ammo.

The Model 28 we had did the same thing. In SA, it tied up. In DA it shot all right. Does yours shoot DA all right?

I'm following this thread as I'm interested in the outcome./beagle

[Mal Paso]

Holding it up to a light source, you can just barely see a gap-almost undetectable and I would say probably no more than a few thousands.


This is the part I saw.

My Colt has a .004" cylinder gap which is tight and I can see a clear sharp line when held to the light.

Can you slip a sheet of paper in the cylinder gap?

I thought my problem was the other end too. Upper right corner of the barrel was too long.

[runfiverun]

sheet of paper is about .0025.

[Mal Paso]

The sheet I measured was almost .0043". Less than .004" is trouble.

May not be the problem but if you can't clearly see the gap (held to the light), it's too small.

[sagamore-one]

I have a model 15 that had very similar symptoms. Found out that the previous owner tried to "tighten up " the cylinder end shake by stretching the crane himself producing the exact same symptoms you described, tight rotation, difficulty opening cylinder, and glitches in the action. Took said model 15 to a local S & W guru who remedied the problem in about 10 minutes by reducing the length of the crane part that goes inside the cylinder. He said this was not uncommon .
Just a little info .

[ColColt]

The paper I had was .005" and would not go through. I found another at .004" and it would slip through. You can see the gap but it's very small. Holding the pistol up to the light so I can see the gap and rotating the cylinder, I see no cylinder that looks closer or binding on the barrel.

[canyon-ghost]

My solution was born out of fear. When I first started reloading, I was afraid of doing primers by hand. I thought I'd make a mistake too easily.

I use the RCBS Ram Prime. It's not the brand, it's the type of primer installer, a ram prime, that counts.

I set it at .004" below the case head (as the books recommend) and left it there. I use it in a designated press but, you don't have to. Originally, it fit my first Rock Chucker. I did reset it to change presses.

With setting it at .004" below the case head, any shellholder I have, any caliber, and any case will be primed exactly the same when it stops at the top of the press stroke. It's an excellent system for single stage.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/RCBSRamPrime.jpg

For $50, the problem never happens.

[ColColt]

I've never seen that before-didn't know it existed. I have an RCBS Jr I've had for decades and always use the primer arm that came with it. It's always worked fine before and as I mentioned, this is the first revolver I've had hang ups with so, I don't feel it's the primer arm. A primer will only go so far, depending on primer pocket depth and manufacturer. I usually use Starline cases.

[hanover67]

I had a similar binding problem with my S & W Model 10 and some reloaded ammunition. In my case, the boolits were not seated deeply enough and some, but not all, would not enter the cylinder all the way. When I inspected the cartridges, I found the problem and have not had any binding since. Hopefully, the answer to your issue is as simple to find.

But, if you think it is the gun, send it to S & W for repairs. Their customer service is very good. As they said to me on a service call, "We don't want a customer to have a bad gun."

[ColColt]

This happened with the 358477 bullet as well as Lee's 158 RF boolit so, I can't blame it on either one of those particular boolits. I seat right up to the top of the crimp groove and the nose of the boolit is a long way from being out to the end of the cylinder. I had ten rounds I didn't shoot and dropped them into the cylinder and they all went in with no resistance nor did I have any problem with rotating the cylinder. It could be I just had a few that the primer just wasn't seated as deeply as the others...not sure at this point.