H4895 or H4350 with Lee C309-170-F

[newton]

Its been a while since I've been able to participate in discussions, had a lot going lately. But nonetheless I have had just enough personal time to sit at the bench a little here and there, which always is a great stress reliever.

So my project for this coming up hunting season is to load and shoot my first cast hunting load. I will be hunting deer at a variety of ranges. I will have two rifles for this particular bullet. My first and main one will be a M94 30-30, stock iron sights. The second will be an older Stevens(now known as Savage) 30-06 110, but this one is scoped.

I really should have gotten the details on this gun before I posted, but I wanted to get the ball rolling and had some time. I'll post the details of the guns tonight. But the short of it is I just have the Lee 170 boolit to work with. I simply do not have the money to get any other mold at this time. Also, I have a good amount of H4895 and H4350. I also have some Unique and Herco, but am assuming that these will not be the best for what I am trying to do.

So what I want to do is to hunt with the 30-30 at ranges ~100 yards, and the 30-06 at ranges up to 200 yards. I know it can be done with both from all the searching I have done on here. However, deciphering all the info is starting to really hurt my brain. I think I have the 30-30 info down on where to start; 26-28 grains of H4895 with a 3/4 grain tuft of filler. Right? That should put me at around 2000 fps if my searching is correct.

But I am having a little more trouble with the 30-06. I can find a lot of info to push the boolit to ~2000 fps, but the info seems to stop there. I would say its fine, but the trajectory is just not what I would like. I would rather sacrifice an inch or two of group size for less drop at longer ranges. I hope that makes sense. These are strictly hunting rounds and I might need to get a shot off quickly without worrying if the deer is standing at 175 or 195 yards.

But by all means, if this is simply something that is just not worth the trouble of doing I am all ears. Also, if someone has some real life trajectory that is applicable that would be great. If I only had a chrony available then I would be simply posting what my testing shows. But I do not and have no way of knowing what true velocities are. I am hoping that there is enough info from you guys that I can get close enough to a decent load to go out and try it without having to do a lot of my own testing. I have access to a 200+ yard range and will test all my loads before hunting. I just want to be wise with my current material supply and not waste anymore than I have too.

Sorry for the long winded post, but you guys have always been real helpful in the past. If it was not for you all I would have never took the plunge into casting, and now I'm hooked. Thanks in advance!

[newton]

I guess my true question got lost in all my other thoughts.

I would like to get this boolit, Lee 170 gas checked, out of the 30-06 at 2200 fps at least and would like closer to 2300 fps. That is based upon the ballistics calculator I use and would give good results for trajectory. But, what I was trying to say in the previous post, is that if someone has some good real life results(not just ballistics calculator) of this set up at a lower speed I am all ears.

[runfiverun]

the 30-30 will out run the 0-6 and maintain accuracy.
use the same 28'5 gr 4895 load in both cases at 1900 fps.
then increase them and see which loses accuracy first.
in the 0-6 30 grs of 4895 will closely duplicate the 28.5 with a filler [i'd still use the filler for hunting in that case though]
either way the 1900-2k velocity will get you good ballistics out to 150 yds, and you can use that as a point blank range also.

[newton]

the 30-30 will out run the 0-6 and maintain accuracy.
use the same 28'5 gr 4895 load in both cases at 1900 fps.
then increase them and see which loses accuracy first.
in the 0-6 30 grs of 4895 will closely duplicate the 28.5 with a filler [i'd still use the filler for hunting in that case though]
either way the 1900-2k velocity will get you good ballistics out to 150 yds, and you can use that as a point blank range also.

That's what I was kinda seeing also in the research. I really would like to get the 06' out past 150 yards though. I feel pretty good about my setup with the 30-30 right now, the 06' is the one I am more interested in.

One of my curiosities is if I should use the H4350 I have on hand to give me better results. It should be "easier" on the boolit being a slower burner, which should(?) allow me to push it harder?

I have only found a few comments on this powder, but none with the boolit I am using. If I cannot get decent trajectory out to 200 yards with the 30-06 I might as well not worry about working up a cast load for it. But I really want to shoot cast out of it also.

Right now I have soup cans loaded up for it in anticipation of squirrel/varmint season. That thing is shooting some tight groups at 100 yards with some Herco behind the boolit. And according to my info, it should be doing right around 1900 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned; the H4895 is the powder of choice for what you want to do with the Lee 170 gr FN. I suggest casting with COWWs + 2% tin and then add 50% lead to that. Size at .311 if you can and use a good softer lube. You can maintain best accuracy by cleaning the barrel every 7 - 10 rounds. May seem like a pain but just for hunting and to maintain accuracy it isn't a problem.

With the M94 28 gr H4895 is an excellent load and no need for the dacron filler as loading density will be excellent. Depending on the rifle and cases used 29 gr may be ok also as mentioned. That is a standard 30-30 load of mine for my M94s. The velocity out of a 20" M94 should be around 2000 fps +/-. 29 gr H4895 is about max psi for the 30-30. Down the road your M94 will benifit from a bit slower powder, particularly LeveRevolution, with it's slower 12" twist. With another powder you can keep psi down and increase velocity into the 2100 - 2200 fps range with the 170 gr Lee bullet and should maintain good hunting accuracy. That will make your M94 a 200 yard capable deer rifle if you've the sights on it to take advantage.

If the Savage 110 '06 has a 12: twist barrel you can easily duplicate the 2100 - 220 fps with 29 - 31 gr of H4895. You will want to use a 3/4 gr dacron filler in the '06 case. If the rifle is a 10" twist then start at 28 gr H4895 and work up in 1/2 gr increments using the 3/4 gr dacron filler also. Clean the barrel between each test group (minimum of 5 shots with 7 or 8 shots being preferred for statistical assurance of accuracy). The rifle will tell you by the accuracy going south when the load is too much. probably before 31 gr.

Good luck hunting

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Larry covers it all but just a side suggestion that may not work, a load of H4350 with a fibrous filler may just produce accuracy at higher velocity by virtue of forming a sealing and scrubbing wad behind the boolit. The filler makes the powder burn fully too. I'd try wheat bran. It has worked for others who have reported a jump in accuracy.

[runfiverun]

a 1900 fps load will go to 200 yds and kill a deer.
in my 308 the drop is 5 moa from 100 to 200 yds and another 5 moa to 300 yds.
those are scope adjustments for zero. [with 28.5 grs of imr 4895 and a filler btw]
i sight in 2.5 inches high at 100 yds,and use a center hold from 50 out to 150 and bump the sights a bit high at 200.
in my scopes with a bdc i use the 200 dot at 200 and see where it hits at 50-100 to the cross hairs.
i generally keep my shots to 150 yds or under, if i have to shoot over that distance i use something else.
i would have to think awful hard to come up with more than 2-3 deer i have shot over 150 yds away and all of them were well over 200 [except the lucky put down shot with the revolver on a wounded deer]

[popper]

LeveRevolution - works for me, no filler, up to 30gr. in 30-30.

[newton]

As mentioned; the H4895 is the powder of choice for what you want to do with the Lee 170 gr FN. I suggest casting with COWWs + 2% tin and then add 50% lead to that. Size at .311 if you can and use a good softer lube. You can maintain best accuracy by cleaning the barrel every 7 - 10 rounds. May seem like a pain but just for hunting and to maintain accuracy it isn't a problem.

With the M94 28 gr H4895 is an excellent load and no need for the dacron filler as loading density will be excellent. Depending on the rifle and cases used 29 gr may be ok also as mentioned. That is a standard 30-30 load of mine for my M94s. The velocity out of a 20" M94 should be around 2000 fps +/-. 29 gr H4895 is about max psi for the 30-30. Down the road your M94 will benifit from a bit slower powder, particularly LeveRevolution, with it's slower 12" twist. With another powder you can keep psi down and increase velocity into the 2100 - 2200 fps range with the 170 gr Lee bullet and should maintain good hunting accuracy. That will make your M94 a 200 yard capable deer rifle if you've the sights on it to take advantage.

If the Savage 110 '06 has a 12: twist barrel you can easily duplicate the 2100 - 220 fps with 29 - 31 gr of H4895. You will want to use a 3/4 gr dacron filler in the '06 case. If the rifle is a 10" twist then start at 28 gr H4895 and work up in 1/2 gr increments using the 3/4 gr dacron filler also. Clean the barrel between each test group (minimum of 5 shots with 7 or 8 shots being preferred for statistical assurance of accuracy). The rifle will tell you by the accuracy going south when the load is too much. probably before 31 gr.

Good luck hunting

Larry Gibson

I figured I would hear from you Larry. In my research your the one I saw the most information from. Which is one reason I figured specs on my gun would be a good bit of info to help come to a conclusion.

Cleaning the gun wont be a pain. Which is one reason I could be ok with a load that might lead the gun some if trajectory was better. I am really ok with a 2"-3" spread at a 100 if it only got to be 4"-5" at 200, but only if the trajectory was good. And what I mean by that is if I do not have to have a 5" high hit at 100 yards, to get a 5" low shot at 200 yards. If that makes sense.

I guess I will go ahead and do a little testing. I do not want to waste too much components, but I will have to try something just to figure some things out anyways. This is where a chrony would come in real handy. I guess that will be on my Christmas list.

Thanks for the info again though. I pulled all the other info you have given in your past posts on the subject, but at least this puts it into one place for me also.

[newton]

Larry covers it all but just a side suggestion that may not work, a load of H4350 with a fibrous filler may just produce accuracy at higher velocity by virtue of forming a sealing and scrubbing wad behind the boolit. The filler makes the powder burn fully too. I'd try wheat bran. It has worked for others who have reported a jump in accuracy.

This is kind of my thoughts, but I have not heard of too much work being done in this arena. I know Gear uses H4350, and I have read his posts on the subject. He stops at 2000 fps though. I would really like to be around 2300.

[popper]

Like R5R says, you will have to use elevation hold +2/-4" at that velocity. 2500fps, +1/-3". It's physics, won't make a diff which gun you use. A spitzer CB may give flatter trajectory, less hold.

[newton]

a 1900 fps load will go to 200 yds and kill a deer.
in my 308 the drop is 5 moa from 100 to 200 yds and another 5 moa to 300 yds.
those are scope adjustments for zero. [with 28.5 grs of imr 4895 and a filler btw]
i sight in 2.5 inches high at 100 yds,and use a center hold from 50 out to 150 and bump the sights a bit high at 200.
in my scopes with a bdc i use the 200 dot at 200 and see where it hits at 50-100 to the cross hairs.
i generally keep my shots to 150 yds or under, if i have to shoot over that distance i use something else.
i would have to think awful hard to come up with more than 2-3 deer i have shot over 150 yds away and all of them were well over 200 [except the lucky put down shot with the revolver on a wounded deer]

Oh, I know it will cleanly take a deer. My issue is not with velocity for energy sake, but for trajectory. Unless I am missing something, or have a bad calculator, 2.5" at 100 will put me at a little over 6" low at 200. But, I guess in the long run, if I know that from the get go I could do the whole hold over thing.

I had thought about a bdc scope. That would make it a little easier. But I know how I am when hunting and I get real excited when a deer shows up. The best scenario is to get a load where I do not have to think about hold over and such. Open spaces can be real deceiving when it comes to determining the range of an animal.

I would be fine with using a gun at its limits, I just want to make sure I am not missing something when it comes to the limits of the 30-06. No, I am not going to go into paper patching just yet. But if there is a safe way of getting up to 2300 I would love to hear some success stories.

[newton]

Like R5R says, you will have to use elevation hold +2/-4" at that velocity. 2500fps, +1/-3". It's physics, won't make a diff which gun you use. A spitzer CB may give flatter trajectory, less hold.

Yea, the hold is my worries. But, its all talk till I get out and try it I guess. When you put it on paper it looks better, but the calculators I use show a 6" drop at 200.

All in all, maybe I am doing the exact thing I have laughed at others in the past. Squabbling about a few fps here and there. I do not want to be one of those. I think I will go for the 2000 fps mark and then just figure it out from there. It seems to be a reasonable mark to hit.

In the future I will try to get some different powder to try though. But I am guessing that the very first thing on my "need" list is a chrony.

Thanks guys, sometimes I just need to be beat over the head a little to get something to set in. But I am still open to hear others experiences with trying to achieve higher fps.

[303Guy]

No reason not to try for 2300fps as a 'something to experiment with' type fun project.:drinks:
Besides, just 'cause it ain't broke don't mean we can't fix it!:mrgreen:

If it ain't broke then fix it until it is!

[newton]

Well thanks for the encouragement 303, I think I will try a few rounds of some moderate H4350. I'm thinking around 45-47 should get me there. I'll be real curious. I have also read somewhere, not on this board, that I could go upwards of 35-38 grains with the H895. But I really wanted to get input here first because I think of this board as the forefront of all things cast.

Well I checked the 30-06, as much as I wanted to stretch it I could not. It is a 1 in 10. The 30-30 of course is the 20" tube with 1 in 12.

The 30-30 shoots the 170 pretty good right now with some plinking loads. I am shooting it underneath a light load of 9.4 grains of Herco. It shoots great. Should be around 1300 fps also.

I'll check back in when I get some testing done. I am going out to the place I can shoot 200 yards this weekend so I am going to have to get some work done in order to try some loads out.

Thanks again for the help.

[runfiverun]

when you do try for the extra velocity a filler or combination of fillers wuld be my suggestion.
one thing that done well for me over short strings [3-5 shots]
was to use dryer lint and puflon fillers. [use the boolit to compress them]
a slow powder was also on the menu.
get the boolit started in the bbl then accelerate it.
let the puflon protect the base and cushion the ignition bump.
and get everything straight/aligned before starting.
a soft lube was also needed as anything hard wouldn't leave much in the bbl after the fillers scrub and dry it out.
imr 7828 is not a good choice for this just so ya know [rl-22,rl-17 however are]

[newton]

Well I just did some more figuring, but this time I was using my head. ha ha.

I am using the Reloaders Reference 9.3. And I finally figured out the whole trajectory calculator...to an extent that is. I do have a question on how it figures drift when I do not see an input for it anywhere.

But I have been using another online calculator and it is probably where my confusions are at. With the RR I just simply select how high I want my boolit to go, versus with others I select where I want to set zero.

But anyways, using the 170 grain boolit at 2000 fps it is showing that if I set it 3" high at 100(actually 96 yards) then I am only 4" low at 200. That is a lot better number than what I was getting with the other calculators.

Am I "hitting" on target here? I guess the only way is to actually load some up for the real world, which I am going to do. But this makes me have some good hope after all for the 30-06.

[runfiverun]

notice my 5 moa comment above.
moa is a bit more than an inch so close to 7"s is bout right. depending on the altitude.
the 2-1/2" high gets me to 150 and with a fudge to 200 you never hold off the animal...
make some loads up and shoot them you'll se what you need to do.
remember you have over 8"s on a deer to kill it cleanly, don't make this hard by overthinking it.

[41mag]

the 2-1/2" high gets me to 150 and with a fudge to 200 you never hold off the animal...
make some loads up and shoot them you'll se what you need to do.
remember you have over 8"s on a deer to kill it cleanly, don't make this hard by overthinking it.

This exact thing was something I had and still have a hard time with when reaching out with my revolvers.

While I practice quite a bit, we periodically catch a hog or group of them out in the open. As you mentioned wide open paces will sometimes throw your internal range finder off a bit. Several times I have held high on them thinking that big ol chunk of lead simply has to drop after all it isn't moving all that fast, only to shoot right over the tops of them. It has become my mantra to tell myself over and over to not hold off hair. I am getting better but still find myself fighting the urge to do so.

With the drops and your rifle zeroed even with a 200yd shot your load should drop right into the heart area as long as you don't hold off hair. Getting the added velocity will only make things better.

[popper]

As indicated in the posts above, it's a LFN CB, the quality of which may be the fps limiting factor. You may want a laser range finder vs the chrony, if hunting is your goal. If you expect paper plate accuracy @ 200 from the bench, an extra 2-3" drop, you now have a 9-10" vertical range vs the 6" kill zone. Hold does become more important as is range determination. Wind drift is an input in RR. I suspect that it is a minor consideration for your hunting conditions - cold weather and a 30 mph wind? It may be heresy on this board but I would suggest the cast for 30-30 and jacketed for your longer range shots until you are more confident of the 06 capability with cast.

[Larry Gibson]

newtom

Oh, I know it will cleanly take a deer. My issue is not with velocity for energy sake, but for trajectory. Unless I am missing something, or have a bad calculator, 2.5" at 100 will put me at a little over 6" low at 200. But, I guess in the long run, if I know that from the get go I could do the whole hold over thing.

I've been using the 311041HP for many years in various .30 cals to kill numerous deer with. I cast them soft and like 2000 - 2200 fps muzzle velocity so there is enogh retained velocity/energy at 200 yards for expansion. The 4-5" accuracy at 200 is what I expect to get and it is quite sufficient for 200 yard deer (black tails or mulies). The 200 yard range is my own self imposed limit with the .30 cal cast bullet when that velocity is atained with that accuracy.

I use pretty much that identical zero BTW. It gives clost to a 150 yard zero (depending on the actual velocity and sight height) so it is a point blank range to 150 yards of which 95+% of the deer I shoot with cast are killed in. On the rare longer shot between 150 and 200 yards I only have to hold a little high but never "off fur". That way if my range estimation is a little long the bullet still hits the deer. I aim to put the bullet in the soccor ball (heart/lungs) area low between the front leggs regardless of the angle; exception being I don't take Texas heart shots.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

As indicated in the posts above, it's a LFN CB, the quality of which may be the fps limiting factor. You may want a laser range finder vs the chrony, if hunting is your goal. If you expect paper plate accuracy @ 200 from the bench, an extra 2-3" drop, you now have a 9-10" vertical range vs the 6" kill zone. Hold does become more important as is range determination. Wind drift is an input in RR. I suspect that it is a minor consideration for your hunting conditions - cold weather and a 30 mph wind? It may be heresy on this board but I would suggest the cast for 30-30 and jacketed for your longer range shots until you are more confident of the 06 capability with cast.

I do have a range finder, so that is a plus. I try to baby it as much as possible, but I guess if I was smart I would keep it handy in hunting situations. Its just that when I hunt with a rifle I am walking, and with a bow when I am in a stand. I got the range finder for bow hunting.

I feel confident now in knowing that I can have an overall rise/fall of around 6" out to 200 yards. That is all I wanted, I just was too pig headed to think about the fact that I do not have to have a specific "zero", but rather an overall rise/fall. I was trying to work up situations with 100, 125, 150, and 175 yard zero's with the different online calculators. When you do that, instead of basing it off of overall rise, then you can come up with some pretty crazy numbers. I just was not thinking right in the beginning.

As far as RR is concerned, where is the wind an input? I know its not that big of a deal, and believe me I am not concerned with it for hunting purposes unless the wind is howling(which I will just compensate for a little), but I just want to know for curiosity sake. I simply cannot find where you input that info.

[newton]

newtom

Oh, I know it will cleanly take a deer. My issue is not with velocity for energy sake, but for trajectory. Unless I am missing something, or have a bad calculator, 2.5" at 100 will put me at a little over 6" low at 200. But, I guess in the long run, if I know that from the get go I could do the whole hold over thing.

I've been using the 311041HP for many years in various .30 cals to kill numerous deer with. I cast them soft and like 2000 - 2200 fps muzzle velocity so there is enogh retained velocity/energy at 200 yards for expansion. The 4-5" accuracy at 200 is what I expect to get and it is quite sufficient for 200 yard deer (black tails or mulies). The 200 yard range is my own self imposed limit with the .30 cal cast bullet when that velocity is atained with that accuracy.

I use pretty much that identical zero BTW. It gives clost to a 150 yard zero (depending on the actual velocity and sight height) so it is a point blank range to 150 yards of which 95+% of the deer I shoot with cast are killed in. On the rare longer shot between 150 and 200 yards I only have to hold a little high but never "off fur". That way if my range estimation is a little long the bullet still hits the deer. I aim to put the bullet in the soccor ball (heart/lungs) area low between the front leggs regardless of the angle; exception being I don't take Texas heart shots.

Larry Gibson

My hunting is going to fall right in line with what you said. Truth be told, I have never shot a deer at over 125-130. But in reality, its because I did not have the gun for it. I just recently acquired the 30-06 and that is what I am wanting to use this season. I will still use my good ole friend I got for Christmas when I was 14, but I want to try out the 06 this season also.

I do hunt is some places that I may have shots up to that far. In fact, I have one place I hunt pigs at that I have shots all the way up to 500 yards in the clear. Last year with my 30-30 I took a shot at a buck I thought was around 100 yards or less. Turns out that he was at 125-130 when I walked it off.

I always do my best to take shots that don't make a mess out of the deer. I prefer broadside, and every deer I shot I have always waited for that shot. So I am definitely comfortable now in the thought of how to set my scope for the boolit I am wanting to use. I cast some up last night and weighed them. They are around 176 plus around 4 more grains for the gas check.

I input that number along with everything else in RR and got back some promising results. I am going to put it at 2.5" high at 100, and then see what it hits at 200 this weekend. I'll let everyone know what loads I am using and what the outcome was come next week. I am excited to say the least. Its been 100+ weather here for the last 2 months non stop and finally this weekend we are going to be down in the upper 80's lower 90's.

Thanks for the help from all. It helps a bunch to be able to talk these things through.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=143420&page=2
here are some groups shot in the wind 12-15 mph gusts at 100 yds.
tof at 100 yds is about .125 seconds or just a hair over 600 yds in a second.
you can see the "normal" 1" drift if you let it.
the first 50 yds is where the most drift occurs, the wind can even be blowing the other way from 100-200 yds and it won't make the first 50 up. [unless it's about double the speed]
scroll down to post 36-37 you'll see the pics and what was what.

[303Guy]

runfiveslittlegirl! I love it! :drinks: And she gets the category of 'boolit lady'. That's so cool.8-)

Back to topic, with a 30-06 and having a 1-in-10 twist which is what I was expecting, but being what it is with a reasonably long neck and presumable a fairly generous throat, one might consider a 220gr cast boolit which should still be able to attain 2000 to 2200fps with a slow enough powder (H4350 perhaps?) That would take advantage of the size of the cartridge and the twist rate and maximise the range (high BC). OK, that is deviating from existing molds perhaps but something to think about. Heck, I've shot 265 grainers from my Brit but not in the field - I used 245 grs and 220 grs. My thinking is that a heavier boolit can be launched at a lower rate and accelerated down the bore just nicely. Thing is, if there is a possibility that it can be done then it should be done. Even if it's just for fun. :roll: By the way, there is something satisfying about sending those torpedoes down range and punching neat holes in paper![smilie=1: OK, they're not intended for paper but one has to test them.:Fire:

[newton]

runfiveslittlegirl! I love it! :drinks: And she gets the category of 'boolit lady'. That's so cool.8-)

Back to topic, with a 30-06 and having a 1-in-10 twist which is what I was expecting, but being what it is with a reasonably long neck and presumable a fairly generous throat, one might consider a 220gr cast boolit which should still be able to attain 2000 to 2200fps with a slow enough powder (H4350 perhaps?) That would take advantage of the size of the cartridge and the twist rate and maximise the range (high BC). OK, that is deviating from existing molds perhaps but something to think about. Heck, I've shot 265 grainers from my Brit but not in the field - I used 245 grs and 220 grs. My thinking is that a heavier boolit can be launched at a lower rate and accelerated down the bore just nicely. Thing is, if there is a possibility that it can be done then it should be done. Even if it's just for fun. :roll: By the way, there is something satisfying about sending those torpedoes down range and punching neat holes in paper![smilie=1: OK, they're not intended for paper but one has to test them.:Fire:

I hear you. Eventually, eventually, I will wake up one morning and wonder which one of the umpteen million molds I am going to cast from that day. But alas, I am stuck with what I have at the time. If I had a bigger boolit I would be using it for sure. I am one of those "bigger is better" guys. Haha. Not entirely, but I can see the benifit here.

I was happy to see that they were weighing in at 180 instead of 170. I should have some loaded up tonight after work. Doubt I'll get to shoot till tomorrow. I have 100 yards to shoot here at the house. That should tell me what loads are doing what before going out to try at 200. I admit, I have some trepidation when it comes to using a filler though. I am reading up on it, but it still is one of those things I'm leery on. But I guess seeing how I am going to be loading around 60% of max load with the H4895(based on J bullets), then a little bit of pressure increase won't be bad. I'm just not one of those guys that can say "oops" and then go get a new gun.

[newton]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=143420&page=2
here are some groups shot in the wind 12-15 mph gusts at 100 yds.
tof at 100 yds is about .125 seconds or just a hair over 600 yds in a second.
you can see the "normal" 1" drift if you let it.
the first 50 yds is where the most drift occurs, the wind can even be blowing the other way from 100-200 yds and it won't make the first 50 up. [unless it's about double the speed]
scroll down to post 36-37 you'll see the pics and what was what.

I believe you when you talk about the wind and how little it effects things. I hope my shots group like that when I shoot them this weekend. I have never paid much attention to the wind unless it was blowing hard and I was shooting 22rf. But even still, I have seen how it effects other bullets as well.

But I still do not see anywhere on RR that you can input that into a "box" or anything like that. It simply is just not there on the program I downloaded. I know its not a big deal, but I feel like I am missing out on something here. haha.

[popper]

Sorry, it's GEBC.exe or berger and several others that have the wind input. Unless you are taking 300-500 yd shots, it's 60 mph or using a 22LR, don't worry about it. I haven't found a 'need' for filler using H4895 but you can try it. Just poke it in with a straw or something. Just got some 2400 (thanks for the suggestion Larry) and used filler for 20 rounds. You can set the sights for 100, then check the rise and drop @ 50,150,200. Remember these numbers, then using rangefinder (assuming you have time) add or subtract AT THE TARGET. Still think you need good groups @ 200 to be sure of the shot. SIL shot a pig last year, ~40 yds but forgot to aim low. Broke the spine instead of a heart shot. Anyway, the ear is about 4" long - good estimator.

[runfiverun]

here is the deal on a calculator.
i have used one to find out that over 2600 fps really flattens out trajectorys with a 30 caliber bullet.
everything else i know about how things work is from shooting.
targets/rocks/rabbits/ground squirells, whatever.
being able to guestimate field conditions and distances has worked for me up untill now and i ain't about to carry a computer in the field.
now if i were shooting 800-1200 yds i'd have my spotter run the program for me and give me turret clicks.
being 20 yds off on distance is a non issue out to 2-300 yds.
there is a difference with some rifles when you get to the 400+ mark.
concentrating on the shot itself is more important.

[newton]

Sorry, it's GEBC.exe or berger and several others that have the wind input. Unless you are taking 300-500 yd shots, it's 60 mph or using a 22LR, don't worry about it. I haven't found a 'need' for filler using H4895 but you can try it. Just poke it in with a straw or something. Just got some 2400 (thanks for the suggestion Larry) and used filler for 20 rounds. You can set the sights for 100, then check the rise and drop @ 50,150,200. Remember these numbers, then using rangefinder (assuming you have time) add or subtract AT THE TARGET. Still think you need good groups @ 200 to be sure of the shot. SIL shot a pig last year, ~40 yds but forgot to aim low. Broke the spine instead of a heart shot. Anyway, the ear is about 4" long - good estimator.

That makes sense, I guess, I just wondered why RR lists it on the trajectory table if your not allowed to change the input. Seems it would avoid a lot of confusion if it was just left off the table. But that's just how my mind thinks.

I have mixed emotions about the filler. I know its above the "60%" mark that Hogden sets, and they do not say anything about a filler. But seeing how I am going for accuracy at 200 yards, I am thinking (based on others experience) that it will help. I am going to the yarn/hobby store today and picking up some. I hope I find the right stuff.

Yea, I am going to want to do a lot of practice before shooting that far. But I like the total rise/fall over that span only being 5-6". Unless I am shooting at a yearling I should be good with a behind the shoulder/mid-chest shot.

[Larry Gibson]

Hodgdon's "60% rule is for reduced loads with H4895 using with jacketed bullets, not cast bullets. AND my recommended starting load is more than 60% anyway..........

Use the filler, a dacron filler preferably if you use the 4895. If you use a slower powder (4350, 4831, RL22, etc.) use a 1/2 gr dacron filler if loading density is 85% or less.

You're not inventing the wheel here, it's already been done. I suggest you use proven technique and simply refine it to your particular rifle......will be much easier that way and less frustrating.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

Hodgdon's "60% rule is for reduced loads with H4895 using with jacketed bullets, not cast bullets. AND my recommended starting load is more than 60% anyway..........

Use the filler, a dacron filler preferably if you use the 4895. If you use a slower powder (4350, 4831, RL22, etc.) use a 1/2 gr dacron filler if loading density is 85% or less.

You're not inventing the wheel here, it's already been done. I suggest you use proven technique and simply refine it to your particular rifle......will be much easier that way and less frustrating.

Larry Gibson

Did I miss something here? I did not think I was trying to invent anything, much less reinvent something.

In fact, Hodgdon specifically calls out cast bullets(boolits) in their published 60% reduced rifle loads paper. Here is a quote and a link;



H4895 powder was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. For years H4895 has been the top choice of cast bullet shooters. For this type of shooting, loads are reduced even more than the hunting loads listed here. To create this type of target and plinking loads, we recommend our 60% rule with H4895: Refer to our latest reloading manual or the Reloading Data Center found on this website; take the maximum H4895 charge listed for any given cartridge and multiply it by 60%. The shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 f/s load, depending on the bullet weight shown. This works ONLY where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use H4895 in a cartridge where it has not been shown.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

So in summing it up, they simply talk about going to jacketed data and dropping 60% from max charge for a similar weight/style bullet to the cast boolit you will be shooting. They are saying that it is actually lower, when using the 60% rule for cast boolits, than the loads they list on down the the paper. On down they list they have loads that are more than 60%, and this is what they are referring to with that one statement. All I was trying to say was that I found it interesting that Hogdgon calls out the 60% rule for cast shooters specifically, not generically. That whole paragraph above is for cast shooters.

Yes, your starting load is more than 60%. Hodgdon calls out a 180 GR. SIE SPBT, which is not exactly like the Lee but follows Hodgdon's rules, at a max charge of 46 grains of H4895. So if you took that at 60% it would be 27.6 grains. Now granted this is based on my particular boolit which weighs in at 180, not the 170 that Lee calls it out as. I am sure its just the alloy I am using.

I went ahead and loaded up some last night, could not resist the urge. I bought some "filler", and am hoping I got the right stuff (pun intended).

46739

I went ahead and loaded up 4 (I wanted one for a cleaning shot) and went out. I loaded them at 30 grains H4895 (I saw what Hodgdon said, and based off other sources it seemed about right. Larry please do not think I just threw your suggestions out the window, I simply wanted to see what it would do). I then put a 1 grain 'fluff' of dacron on the top and seated a boolit, pushing the dacron the rest of the way in. I tried .75 with a test round and it seemed like it was not enough.

This was by no means an accurate test. I was really rushing it all, but I did take the time with loading the rounds. I was VERY impressed with the shots. It was interesting though, the first shot seemed a little weird and almost made me think of a muzzle loader. I guess I was just seeing the dacron fly out?

After that I wondered what no filler would do. So I loaded three more up and shot them. The grouped exactly the same, but a tad lower.

46740

You can see the first shot being way off. But then the two groups after that. Again, I know that 5 or more shots is always best when "grouping", but I just wanted to see what the load would do. I am NOT a benchrest shooter. I DO fight flinching a lot. So I am really impressed to see how well they shot. For some reason I can focus more on the shot in a hunting situation rather than target practice.

I am still going to play more with it. I am really hoping the filler is correct. The last thing I want to do is to mess the gun up. I'll know more about the trajectory tomorrow and I'll post the results at 200 yards.

Here is a picture of the little "fluffs" of poly/dacron. They did not have the batting where I went, or at least I did not find it.

46741

[madsenshooter]

46gr of 4350 should get you up around the velocity you're looking for out of your 06. Pressure would be <34000psi, so a relatively soft alloy should work for you.

[newton]

46gr of 4350 should get you up around the velocity you're looking for out of your 06. Pressure would be <34000psi, so a relatively soft alloy should work for you.

Thanks for the info. I had really considered testing this out. When I looked up what I could find the information I got back was 47 grains to get around 2300 fps. Do you have first hand experience with this kind of load? I would love to hear/see some of your results.

[popper]

I get my filler out of chewed up dog toys. Looks the same. Just push it in with a straw or pencil. It won't mess the gun up. The calculator will tell you what you can expect, not get. I feel it helps understand what determines trajectory. Now if you are sniping at 4000 yds, you will use some sort of calculator. The target is always right.

[303Guy]

This is quite a nice ballistic calculator.

http://www.jbmballistics.com

I was able to work out the velocity of my hornet from it. I got it right on.

[Larry Gibson]

Newton

Been a while (years) since I read that part of the Hodgdon site. Obviously they added the "cast bullets". I stand corrected.

By "reinventing the wheel" I was simply refering to the load/trajectory you want with that bullet. Been done with that bullet and similar ones by many, many cast bullet shooters already was all I was saying. Following what they have done successfully will get you there quickly with less frustration. You're doing good as your las groups showed.

That is the right dacron, batting is just the same stuff in sheets. They sell it at fabric and quilting stores. I only prefer the batting because it is easier to cut up a whole lot of chucks thatn to pull out pices. No difference in performance.

I'm using 30 gr milsurp 4895 under a 177 gr 311041HP with a dacron filler out of my suppressed .308W (M70 with 22" Krieger barrel) with a 10" twist. It is right at 1940 fps and puts 10 of them in 2" (7-8 in 1") at 100 yards and 5" (7-8 in 2-3")at 200 yards. Thus in the '06 you might try 29 - 32 gr with your bullet in your '06.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

Newton

Been a while (years) since I read that part of the Hodgdon site. Obviously they added the "cast bullets". I stand corrected.

By "reinventing the wheel" I was simply refering to the load/trajectory you want with that bullet. Been done with that bullet and similar ones by many, many cast bullet shooters already was all I was saying. Following what they have done successfully will get you there quickly with less frustration. You're doing good as your las groups showed.

That is the right dacron, batting is just the same stuff in sheets. They sell it at fabric and quilting stores. I only prefer the batting because it is easier to cut up a whole lot of chucks thatn to pull out pices. No difference in performance.

I'm using 30 gr milsurp 4895 under a 177 gr 311041HP with a dacron filler out of my suppressed .308W (M70 with 22" Krieger barrel) with a 10" twist. It is right at 1940 fps and puts 10 of them in 2" (7-8 in 1") at 100 yards and 5" (7-8 in 2-3")at 200 yards. Thus in the '06 you might try 29 - 32 gr with your bullet in your '06.

Larry Gibson

I hope I did not sound like I was trying to correct you, because it really was not like that at all. I just wanted to make sure I was not going nuts.

Good to hear I got the right stuff. I see what you mean now by reinventing the wheel. My apologies for being slow at grasping things. I loaded 18 more loads tonight for tomorrow. I'm looking forward to seeing what the outcome is.

I really hope I am at the 2000 fps mark. That's what I am aiming for now. I would be ok with more, I just want good trajectory. I really would think you would be getting more fps with that load in an 308. But I guess each gun is different.

I thought about loading more a little hotter than the 30 grains, but I'm sticking with that for now. I am not going to bock at 1 1/2 groups at 100 yards. I'm looking forward to posting the results of tomorrow.

[newton]

Well, I tried them at 200. Not so good. I adjusted the scope to shoot 2 1/2" high at 100. Put the target at 200 and shot. I was 10" low and 8" to the right. But that was with a freshly cleaned barrel. So I shot again and hit paper at least this time but still way low and right. I adjusted the scope up and shot again. Still low. I wanted to see if I had some thing wrong with the scope so I set the target back at 100 and I was dead center at the correct highth for what I adjusted the scope at.

I ran out of time for the test. But unless I am missing something I am thinking this load is not going to cut the mustard at that distance. I will try again sometime, but I am just not sure why the so low hitting especially to the right. I don't doubt it's not me. But I am also not the best caster either, and can't rule out the fact that the boolit is not perfectly cast.

I did shoot this gun with j bullets at that distance with a lot better results. I think the outcome is the same anyway you look at it though. And that is that I simply do not need to be shooting at an animal at that distance.

So I set it back to 2 1/2" high at 100 and it's shooting good. I am gonna have to figure out a way to get a longer range at my house so I do not feel rushed. I also wish I knew how fast they were going to see if maybe they are simply not coming out as fast as I thought. I would assume the load would be pushing 2000, but if it's only 1800 or so it might make more sense. Except for the low and right hit, but that's probably me.

[runfiverun]

the boolit design will have something to do with it also.

[espea101]

Newton,
Did you ever get a chance to work out the bugs in your load to get it accurate out to 200 yards? I have the same mold and am planning on loading for similar purposes. Just curious for an update. Thanks!