777 vs BP, Recent experience

[omgb]

I spent two days as the Black Powder instructor/coach at a kids shooting camp last week and had a chance to try 777 in our guns. The results were interesting to say the least.

First the weather....85-90 degrees with 10-15% humidity. This low humidity really makes fouling an issue when you are going to be shooting a couple of hundred rounds a day.

Second the guns: We had a Ruger old Army pistol, a Zuave musket, a Lyman Great Planes rifle, an H&R Huntsman in 58 cal, a CVA in-line in 50 cal, a youth model cap lock of unknown origin and a single shot .73 caliber cartridge gun based on and H&R Ultra Slug gun.

From my experience I'd say forget trying to use it in Ruger Old Army pistols. Even with new Treco nipples and Rem Mag caps we got lots of misfires. We switched back to 3F BP and never had another misfire.

In our Lyman and CVA cap locks it worked great. We used the 2F granulation and Rem mag caps. No hang fires and no need to clean between shot strings.

In the in-line CVA using #209 primers we never had a single issue. Fast, clean and very accurate. Clearly the gun was designed with T7 in mind.

The Huntsman was a whole other ball game. It was primed using musket caps. Unless I used a duplex load of 4F and then the T7, we got slow ignition and hang fires ahoy. T7 was not very friendly to this gun.

The Zuave musket had no issues with T7. It loved it.

The little kid's model 50 cal used T7 without any trouble.

The .73 Talleywacker was kind of tricky. The typical BP load was a 2 oz Paradox slug with 150 grains of 2F BP. With T7, the load had to be backed off to 110 grains or cases stuck and primers really flattened.

In all cases, T7 did not build up excessive fouling. We were able to shoot over 200 rounds a day for two days without a cleaning. Since it was kids shooting I can't say much about the accuracy. Lots of the kids were just trigger pullers. Those that tried, had little trouble hitting the gongs and metal plates but we didn't use paper targets so your guess is as good as mine when it comes to grouping ability.

That's my report. I will use T7 again next year simply because it never built up fouling. Clean up was done with soap and water.....very simple and easy.

R Talley

[Fly]

Great report.Never used it & most likely never will.I'm a OLE school guy, &
just like the real stuff.Also I will never shoot 200 rounds in one day.

But I,m really amazed at how clean that stuff must be.Thanks for the report.

Fly

[HARRYMPOPE]

I use it in a .577 Parker Hale and a .50 Lyman GP 1-32 with good luck.I shoot 40-50 per rifle each session with no wiping as well.
With conicals i prefer it to black.

George

[rodwha]

I'm curious if using 3F 777 would have worked well in the Old Army. I've not heard the complaint from the few I've read that use it.

[omgb]

That's what I used and it misfired a least one cylinder per round. I gave it up and went to BP

[HARRYMPOPE]

i refuse to shoot a "replica" powders or replica muzzle loaders and only fire original guns made by hand prior to the 1850's.And when I do i walk or ride a horse to the range.

George

[izzyjoe]

well if you have to use a Sub, 777 is the best to use. i'm in the crowd that likes the real stuff, it's non-obtainable in my area, so i just split an order with a freind.

[R.M.]

From my experience I'd say forget trying to use it in Ruger Old Army pistols. Even with new Treco nipples and Rem Mag caps we got lots of misfires.
R Talley
Funny.That's all I've ever used in my ROA, with never a misfire. Same nipples and caps.
I'd guess that you had a bad can of powder.

[omgb]

It's possible RM but I don't know. 3F BP lit every time and I was able to shoot the gun more than 10 full cylinders worth without having to clean it. I even let is sit over night and shot it that many times again the next day. All worked fine with BP but T7 gave me miss fires and hang fires at least one and often two cylinders out of six. Go figure.

[OverMax]

T/C side hammers. 58 down to 45. Go to the range shoot maybe 4-5 times swabbing between shots on the pick of the day rifle. Gorex only. After all that monkey business shooting only 4-5 times with Gorex 2FF I've had enough and leave the Club range. Been sitting on a bottle of 2FF Triple 777 loose for 5-6 years now and is unopened. Next generation of family shooters can play with it. But as of late I'm considering making my own Black. Maybe it will burn cleaner than store bought maybe not. We'll see.

[omgb]

I doubt that you will get home made BP to burn cleaner than either Swiss or GOEX Express. The T7 fouling is softer and seems not to build up as much.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I doubt that you will get home made BP to burn cleaner than either Swiss or GOEX Express. The T7 fouling is softer and seems not to build up as much.

So far i have only burned about 5 pounds of the stuff.But it does seem pretty clean.I only went to it as i shoot early AM before i get to the office and it doesn't stink me up like much as BP or Pyrodex.Once i gave it a chance i realized it worked pretty good.The big question for me is is it corrosive? Or can i get a way with only a wet swab after shooting?

George

[OverMax]

Most store bought is corned and coated. That along creates some degree of fouling in itself. Black rolled in a ball-mill has a texture of Flash and is made without additives or screened/sieved and dried to size. For all intents and purposes home made should burn a little quicker & cleaner and done with using less of it hopefully. The charges I use are not meant to kill buffalo or grizzly bear. Just a nice 2 yr old thin skinned doe or spike. So long as my patched ball hits its mark I aimed for. Hey I'm happy whether it be paper or skin & bone. 75 yards is all I need to get the job done on either. What I don't like is the current cost of manufactured powders. I realize everyone involved in making commercial B/P or substitutes for the market place have to eat and pay their bills. But, so do I.

[725]

I, too, teach at a kids camp. Have used Triple Seven and much prefer it to all others. Can stand at the line and shoot non-stop for hours. This year I got a load of Pyrodex for the .50 cal side hammers. Don't like it very much. Triple seven is hotter, cleaner, & more accurate out of our 4, .50 cal side hammers. When I burn through our stock, I'll shop for Triple Seven.

[omgb]

T7 is corrosive. I swab with a 50/50 mixture of Prestone and distilled water. You can leave it over night without any rust without any problems at all. Prestone has anti-rust inhibitors in it so it's not a bad bore swab at all. plus, it has some lubricating properties too.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I asked about corrosion because my buddy has shot his inline for a year with T7 and no cleaning and it hasn't rusted yet.I am afraid to do that myself.I left mine for three days with no swabbing and it just was white and sooty but no rust.I'll clean no matter what but was curious what others had heard.

George

[horsesoldier]

I made the switch and I have to say I like the real black alot better. I was getting a bit of a hang fire with the triple 7. Interesting article!

[HARRYMPOPE]

I made the switch and I have to say I like the real black alot better. I was getting a bit of a hang fire with the triple 7. Interesting article!

I have had good luck with T-7 in my .577 Parker Hale and 1-32 .50 Lyman Great Plains(both with conicals).In my 20ga and 12ga smooth bore with patched ball i had very slow ignition.In the .50 and .577 it isn't as instant as black but its not a real lag either
I like BP for patched ball generally but Pyrodex in my .50 shot as well as Goex FF and FFF. My 54 TC 1-48 shoots Goex FF way better than the 'subs with patched RB.

George

[waksupi]

I asked about corrosion because my buddy has shot his inline for a year with T7 and no cleaning and it hasn't rusted yet.I am afraid to do that myself.I left mine for three days with no swabbing and it just was white and sooty but no rust.I'll clean no matter what but was curious what others had heard.

George

That white stuff is the beginning of corrosion.

[moptop]

I use Trip7 FFFG in both my '58 Rem and my T/C .50cal New Englander and it works great in both. I've never had any miss's or hangs in either. I love the easy clean-up. The white shoot is just that...shoot, not corrosion. Trip 7 is advertized as a "sulfurless" powder but that's not what causes the rust, it's the fouling left after burning, mainly carbon I think. Trip 7 is considered to be "less" corrosive is because it produces much less fouling to obsorb and hold moisture.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I use Trip7 FFFG in both my '58 Rem and my T/C .50cal New Englander and it works great in both. I've never had any miss's or hangs in either. I love the easy clean-up. The white shoot is just that...shoot, not corrosion. Trip 7 is advertized as a "sulfurless" powder but that's not what causes the rust, it's the fouling left after burning, mainly carbon I think. Trip 7 is considered to be "less" corrosive is because it produces much less fouling to obsorb and hold moisture.

That's what i also heard.

George

[Tatume]

Here is what Hodgdon had to say on the matter:


Yes, there are perchlorate salts in the combustion residue of Triple Seven. However, there is not a great deal of perchlorate present. It is easily cleaned from the firearm with water.

I would suggest that the sulfur salts present after the combustion of black powder are more corrosive than the products of combustion created by Triple Seven. Tests conducted by the DOD and NASA confirm this.

Our testing indicates that if we use a scale with smokeless powder at one end with a value of zero and black powder at the other end with a value of 100, Triple Seven would be about 30 on the scale. While less corrosive than black powder, it is certainly corrosive and any firearm used with it should be cleaned after use.

The whole argument these guys make is rather irritating as you must clean the rifle after the use of all muzzleloading powders so there is no problem with corrosion anyway unless the shooter is lazy or does a poor job of cleaning.

Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders
Winchester Legendary Propellants
IMR Propellants
Pyrodex
Triple Seven
Goex Black Powder

[omgb]

The whole purpose in my trying T7 was o avoid some of the loading issues that arise when you shoot 200 or more shots in a day. None of the guns fired more than 80 rounds each per day but still, anyone with BP experience knows that at high temps and low humidity, you may have to wipe the bore after every third or Fourth shot to avoid stuck balls or just plain difficult loading. T7 proved very useful at this level. We shot all day without wiping the bore.

The other issue was that I didn't want to have to clean the guns twice. The BP camp is shot over two consecutive days. I wanted to be able to leave the guns uncleaned and begin the next day. This I was able to do. I wiped the bores with a cleaner called "Gunzilla" and then put them away for the night. The next day we started shooting again. So, T7 was very helpful in solving those two problems.

Honestly, for just plain shooting on my own, I'm sticking to BP but at camp next year, I'm going to use T7 again.

[Tatume]

My experience cleaning up after H777, and I shot a lot of it before I found a source of affordable black powder, is that it is very easy. Typically I would clean with alternating cold water wet patches and dry patches, two each. That's it. Done. Any further cleaning will not bring out any more fouling.

When I was hearing lots of controversy over corrosion with H777 I decided to test it for myself. After a range session with my 54 caliber 1:66” Custom Shop T/C Renegade using H777, I cleaned as described, and followed with a patch wetted with T/C 1000+ Bore Butter (which I no longer use, as I now prefer Ballistol). I put the gun up in my air conditioned home for a year. Then I swabbed the bore with a dry patch. No trace of rust or fouling was found, only a yellow stain from the Bore Butter. I then examined the bore with a magnifying bore scope. No trace of corrosion was seen. Finally I loaded the gun and shot it for a day at the range. Everything was perfect.

If I run out of black powder someday I will not hesitate to resume using H777.

[Hiwall55]

I tried 777 some years ago, my TC Hawkens shot it OK, but my Great Plains had a lot of Hang fires, That was before FFF , I prefer to shoot real B-P