Ploymer cases: The end of brass?

[fullofdays]

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/01/polymer-casings-future-ammo

Interesting article and video...

[frkelly74]

another cure for an ailment that doesn't exist?

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

frk,

For the military it will be a godsend. I was in RVN with a Ranger Company. The rules dictate that you went afield carrying 300 rounds of ammunition in 30 round magazines. This new 5.56 will weigh about half of the brass cased stuff.

I raced cars for several years. There is an old adage: weight is the enemy, horsepower is your friend. IMHO, the only bad news will be the loss of surplus brass for cheap.

Rich

[H.Callahan]

...unless it can be reloaded. Didn't see an mention of that either way. Since it is in 3 pieces, it brings up some interesting possibilities -- like replacing just the neck/shoulder portion if when it cracks

[Judan_454]

I remember when they came out with caseless ammo what happend to that. That was suppose to be all the rage. I seem to remember when had some plastic cases that shot low pressure rounds it was in 38 special.

[HollowPoint]

I first heard of these types of cases from a customer about a year ago.

He happened to be one of the military contractors who owned the manufacturing facility that was produced these cases while they were being tested. If I remember correctly, his company was manufacturing only pistol cartridge cases.

Luckily for me this individual also happened to be an avid hunter. He said he'd bring me some sample cartridges in 38 special caliber when he came to pick up the work I was doing for him. (bass boat seats needed re-covering)

In an odd turn of events, on his way to my place to pick up those newly re-covered seats, he was pulled over by the police because his vehicle fit the description of that of a suspected bank robbery get-away vehicle.

We had a pretty good laugh over it and in the midst of all of that confusion I had forgotten all about those free polymer bullet casings he said he'd give me. He must have forgotten about them too because I never did get them. And since I don't even own a 38 special I saw no reason to pursue the issue.

I'll ask him about it if I ever see him again. He's good friends with another buddy of mine. I may try to get in touch with him through that buddy.

I do remember asking him if they were reload-able. He stated that since they were being made for military use under battlefield condition, they were NOT made to be re-loadable. With new technology being what is it now days, it's possible that the re-load-ability issue has changed.

HollowPoint

[bruce drake]

the polymer portions are glued together and then glued to the brass-coated steel head. Just another fail point in my opinion. The poly case idea have been out for a long time. I think someone has even reloaded them in the past and wrote about it as well.

http://www.defensereview.com/problems-with-natec-pca-spectrum-polymer-cased-ammo/

I think the company has a lot of money invested in the project and is looking for buyers to recoup their investment. Right now, its not ready for military use on a large scale so the surplus market for brass won't dry up yet.

Bruce

[Texantothecore]

Having worked with plastics I would want to know if the round works consistently at high fire rates with hot barrels and breeches. If not, toss it.

[MtGun44]

I have some cases left over from .223 ammo with brass heads and polymer front 2/3.

DISMAL accuracy, although they ran OK. Lighter and slightly cheaper, probably.

Bill

[Michael J. Spangler]

With the little research I did it sounded like they weren't worried about the regular old ground infantry ammo

They wanted to cut down on the weight of the larger caliber stuff like 50 bmg and 20 mm type stuff that weighed down planes. I guess it was so they could drop the weight down and carry a little more or more missiles bombs etc.

[Mud Eagle]

With the little research I did it sounded like they weren't worried about the regular old ground infantry ammo

They wanted to cut down on the weight of the larger caliber stuff like 50 bmg and 20 mm type stuff that weighed down planes. I guess it was so they could drop the weight down and carry a little more or more missiles bombs etc.

Or just be lighter such that they could maneuver better.

Or carry more fuel, since every fighter is short on that the minute they take off.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I remember when they came out with caseless ammo what happend to that. That was suppose to be all the rage. I seem to remember when had some plastic cases that shot low pressure rounds it was in 38 special.


The .38 Spcl. polymer cases with a metal case head and special snap in bullets is called USAC ammo Co. I still have a few hundred cases and about 1K or so of the snap in bullets in a reloading cabinet. I just couldn`t wrap my head around this concept of reloading, besides you had to load their bullets in the cases.Robert

[ku4hx]

Looks interesting, but it also looks to be a three part case somehow bonded together; I prefer the KISS approach. They may be the cartridge of the future, but I've seen "of the future" applied to many "innovations" over the years that looked good but still failed for various reasons. the Gyrojet concept comes to mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet Of course many shooting innovations thrived too, obviously.

If the use of these reduces the cost of factory ammunition, if they indeed are aimed for civilian use, that would be good. But somehow I don't see these cases ever being less expensive for the home loader in the near future if ever. Brass case technology is mature, the process is about as cheap as it can get and the current product works for most of us.

Another solution looking for a problem.

[L1A1Rocker]

I wonder how well those cases would store. Anybody think they will be OK after 40 years in a sealed tin can? I can see a possibility of the case crumbling upon fireing and causing one heck of a mess in the chamber.

[Mal Paso]

Sunlight will have an effect too. Pex plumbing pipe splits if it gets too much sun.

How about a bullet with a vacuum inside. All the Mass and None of the Weight. :kidding:

[odfairfaxsub]

ill tell you what. this will save alot of resources in the speak of copper/tin/etc to make brass product. i heard it said one time that the hard part about war is resources. we have tons of storage units ran by the government to store lead and such on pallets to ship to contracted ammo units to build our nations ammo for war usage. this will save more brass/copper/tin/etc to make other things such as gun parts, bullets, primer cups, YOU KNOW THE DRILL.

[JeffinNZ]

Has the military given up on caseless?

[Judan_454]

Has the military given up on caseless?
I think the last thing I seen on caseless ammo is that when the barrel and or when the gun gets hot though automatic fire rounds tend to go off before they are fired.

[MtGun44]

Jeff,
Pretty much, yes. The insurmountable problem is heat management. A brass case absorbs
a large fraction of the heat of firing and you can throw it on the ground. Absorbing it into
the barrel and then trying to get rid of it is extremely difficult. Fast semi-auto or full auto
melts the gun quickly and gets into runaway firing as the chamber gets hot enough to
fire the rounds uncommanded. Cook offs are a bit of a problem with closed bolt guns
with brass cases, so any caseless would also have to be open bolt, even then heat
builds very fast. Water cooling or maybe forced air cooling with a fan and large fins might
work, but heavy, bulky and takes power.

Ugly.

It would seem that polymer cases would share many of the same "advantages". ;-)

Bill

[dragonrider]

Picked some up at the range one day, makes sense I quess. Less weight, claims to accuracy.
Certainly don't apear to be reloadable to me. Did not check flash hole so I don't know if it is boxer or Berdan. But I think they are a good idea, if they cost less then more people will shoot more, and isn't that what we want????

[375RUGER]

I remember when they came out with caseless ammo what happend to that. That was suppose to be all the rage.

I was thinking the same thing. that stuff came and went like a New Mexico rain.

[MtGun44]

"Claims to accuracy" ??? What caliber? I had 100 rds of .223 and it was VERY
inaccurate.

Bill

[Bob Krack]

I just wonder -------- should I tumble in corn-cob or walnut media??? :veryconfu

Bob

[mpmarty]

Brass cartridge cases perform three vital functions.
1. form a sturdy package for primer, powder and projectile.
2. Act as a sealant to obturate the chamber
3. Remove heat from the weapon on ejection.

Polymer may do two of the three but fail in heat dissipation and are marginal in #1 as in warm climates the polymer may fail to stay together.

[zomby woof]

I bought this stuff a while ago. It was cheap $80/500. It works.....

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN11481.JPG

[snuffy]

A friend gave me a box of the PCA spectrum .223, this was a 55 grain FMJ.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/image2_11.jpg

It shot lousy! In my bushy AR anyway. Functioned well, but a 4" group @ 100 was unacceptable.

I tried to reload a few, there is no neck tension because the neck being plastic springs back. It would shoot okay in a single shot, I set those I loaded aside to shoot in my contender, but never have--- yet.

Info I could find at that time was the bullet was cast into the plastic body, then the body was filled with powder and snapped onto the brass head.

I kept about 10 rounds, thinking they would NOT catch on, maybe someday be worth something to a collector. Yeah, IF I live to be 150![smilie=p:[smilie=s::shock:

PCA went tits up, looks like somebody bought the patent, is trying to make a success of the idea. BUT WE ALL KNOW NOW THAT THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO DO IT THEMSELVES, the govment is why people succeed! President Hussien says so!

[dragonrider]

The fellow in the video "claimed they were accurate" in all calibers in which they are made.

[blackthorn]

Years and years ago I came home one day to find a brown paper bag on my back steps with some 12ga, sort of pale green plastic shells in it. They were all plastic as far as I can tell except for the primer. I still have them somewhere around here.

[Chicken Thief]

Like most other novelties
If it worked the big manufactors would step on each others heels to buy permission to produce.

Citroën and their air suspension, Aluminium cases, Environmentally friendly electrical cars comes to mind!