Rifle cases and GC boolits

[Goatwhiskers]

Been reading thru a Lyman manual and thinking--a very dangerous thing I know. My initial work with cast was with the .357Max in which I use A1680 which according to Western Powders is the slowest practical powder in that case. It gives me a very full case, sometimes compressed depending on the load. I get good velocities and no leading with GC or paper patch. Is there any reason for the loads in the manual to use much lighter charges of fairly fast burning powder for cast loads? I find myself thinking that some slower burning powders such as 4895 or 4064 behind a equivalent weight boolit would give a fuller case and equal performance. Should have said that what I'm looking at is .35Whelen data. Any thoughts on the matter? Goat

[btroj]

Partly because many people are looking at cast as a way to save money. Less powder, less money.
Faster burners generally do better at the lower pressures many cast shooters prefer.
I think some is just tradition.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Goatwhiskers. I have a pre-WW1 German sporting rifle built on a 98' mauser action
in 7X57. Normally when working up cast bullet loads, I will go with a charge of IMR or H4227..for a mild but accurate target load. For some reason, with this rifle, It seemed right to go for hunting velocity. Started loading H4895 under a custom Leeth 150gr. nose-pour G.C.
Started out with low start loads..and gradually worked up..the heaver the charge..the better it shot..I ended up well beyond jacket bullet start loads..this rifle only weighs about 7lbs..so my shoulder was the first thing to yell stop! but those heavy charges were grouping around 1 1/8" at 100 yds. No leading with a mongrel mix of range scrap & steriotype metal...nowhere near the hardness of lino. Lube was Lyman Super Molly.

[leadman]

As .22-10-45 noted that recoil can be a factor with slower powders. Many shooters want to save money and/or their shoulder or hands. Also good for starting out young shooters so they don't get pounded by recoil.
In my case most of my guns are fired at inanimate objects like paper, rocks, etc. No need to deal with the recoil and blast.
Historically during the times when reloading grew the amount of disposable income available to the average shooter was much less than today. If you ever read Colonel Whelan's stories you will understand this. he states that he had to sell a rifle to be able to afford a different rifle.

Even though the amount of powder is much less when using the fater shotgun/pistol powders the pressures can still be substantial. They also build very fast so be aware of this. They are perfectly safe when used correctly.

[Goatwhiskers]

I wasn't real clear in my original post. I'm getting my best results in the Max with the slowest practical powder. In bottleneck rifle calibers I have a bit of a personal problem with using relatively fast powders, danger of double charge, etc. Guess my question really is there anything wrong with using the normal powders used with jacketed bullets behind an equivalent weight cast GC? I guess my theory would be that a gentler launch with a slower powder could be beneficial. GW

[runfiverun]

it is beneficial.
you have to work carefully doing so and with many of the medium powwders [4895] a filler is needed for best results.
if going to the slower end [4831] reducing the powder can cause other issues like unburnt powder,hangfires,etc.
but going all the way to like bmg-50 will fill the case all the way and still keep velocity's in the accuracy range.

[MT Gianni]

If you look in the jacketed area for the Whelen it seems to do it's best with medium powders rather than with the slowest ones.

[leadman]

Trying to use the same loads for cast as listed for jacketed can be a very trying experience. With cartidges like the 30-30 is easy to accomplish. With faster cartridges you may not have enough boolit strength to do the job unless you heat treat them. Even then everything will have to be perfect to work.
With H4895 you can use 60% of the max listed load and be safe. This info is posted on Hodgdon website. Use of this formula with other than H4895 or with cartridges not listed in the manual with H4895 can lead to disasterous results.

[Char-Gar]

You can't substitute cast bullets for jacketed bullets and use the same load data for certain. That is a way to get into trouble real fast.

That said, cast bullet data in manuals seem to follow fads. "Back in the day", the manuals has data for fast and medium powders on a regular basis. Then you saw the medium burning powder loads go away and nothing but the fast burners remained.

Perhaps, it is money driven and a fellow gets more bang for the buck with the fast pistol powder, I really dont know the reason, but both the fast and medium powder have a place in cast bullet rifle reloading.

The fast powders are just the ticked for loads up to about 1.8K fps. Above that better accuracy will result from the use of medium burning powders. Just so you know, I am think of 30 caliber rounds here, but the same would be true of many other calibers.