38 problems and questions

[pastor]

We recently got a lee 6 cavity .358 mold and a push through sizer, I was already casting for my 45acp and it was doing fine,accurate and no leading at all, sized and tumble lube,

anyway the .358 mold is a 140 gr swc we cast up some, loaded them up and went and shot them in my brothers 2" revolver, the barrel sluged at .356 after shooting 50 rounds the barrel was badly leaded with a bunch of spiderweb looking stuff in the barrel, didnt even see the lead until we cleaned out the spider webs

the mold is casting at .358-.359 and the sizer is .358 exactly

after pulling a loaded round I discovered the bullet was .355-.356

the loads were made using lee dies with roll crimp, my brother and I dont know what to change to fix the problem

is it the roll crimp? will the bullets get swaged down just being pushed into a sized case?? how do we keep the bullet at .358

any ideas will be appreciated, i am new or kind of new at casting i have cast about 8-10,000 45acp bullets and so far had no problems, the 38 mold is new and Im not sure what to do

[geargnasher]

....after pulling a loaded round I discovered the bullet was .355-.356 You did one of the important things to help directly pinpoint your problem right there, now you just need to fix it.

the loads were made using lee dies with roll crimp, my brother and I dont know what to change to fix the problem Lee .38 Special "expanders" don't.

is it the roll crimp? Can be if the boolits are too soft. will the bullets get swaged down just being pushed into a sized case?? Yes, absolutely, happens all the time. how do we keep the bullet at .358 You either make them a bit harder, wait for them to age (if using an alloy that will age-harden somewhat), or get a different expander that expands the case deeply enough and large enough to prevent swage, yet allow for adequate boolit tension.

any ideas will be appreciated, i am new or kind of new at casting i have cast about 8-10,000 45acp bullets and so far had no problems, the 38 mold is new and Im not sure what to do

First thing is look at boolit hardness, everything you're saying is indicating the boolits are WAY too soft for the tools you're using. I'm not advocating "hardcast" or stupidly brittle, hard boolits, but obviously they're too soft for the application.

You did not mention the type of alloy you used, or how much time passed between the casting and the loading. "Green" wheel weight alloy or similar alloy takes a week or two to achieve it's normal hardness if air-cooled, for the first few days after casting it will be very soft, and that might be your problem.

There are other things that can contribute, like poor powder choices for the velocity, undersized cylinder throats, thread choke in the barrel at the frame, lube, etc., but if the boolit is coming out of the case undersized you need to fix that first either with alloy or tooling.

Gear

[canyon-ghost]

I generally use RCBS dies because they seem to cater to reloading lead. I'd try a lot lighter crimp if possible and check how much the seating die actually sizes down the brass, or if it does (that might be the first question).

I also like a light taper crimp, even in the big ones like 41 magnum!

Good Luck,
Ron

[pastor]

Thanks for the reply, the alloy is wheel weights and range lead mixed about half and half, the BHN measured on my lee tester is around 9

the ingots we used were about 2 months old

it is the same alloy i use for my 45acp, since I was having such good luck with it I thought it would be fine for 38,

one difference between the two is on the 45 i use an RCBS taper crimp die,

different powder is used also, 45acp i use Clays, my brother uses Unique in the 38

[geargnasher]

Every time you melt the lead and cool it the aging starts over. How long was it between casting and loading? 9 bhn is too soft for your tooling. You will need an expander spud as long as the part of the boolit that goes into the case, and for your purposes .357" expander diameter is probably the minimum.

Gear

[pastor]

sorry, i meant to say the bullets were cast "from" ingots about 2 months ago

should we water drop them to increase hardness?

[geargnasher]

That might help, or get a different expander.

Here's an example of what it needs to do to keep from swaging your boolits, compare to the lee "expander" spud and you'll see the problem. Try to get one in .357". http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24608&d=1282019955

Gear

[pastor]

Thanks, i will check the expander in the dies my brother has, what brand is in the pic in the link you posted

[.22-10-45]

Hello, pastor. You said you slugged bore..did you try bullet fit in cylinder mouths? Try an as cast bullet & if tight, tap thru..this should be your sizing dia. I have found most loading dies are set up from factory for loading jacketed bullets..the RCBS Cowboy dies are one exception. You might want to invest in a Lyman M die..these will expand your cases enough (sometimes) to prevent reducing bullet dia..and yes..a too tight case fit will do it. No need to water quench for a .38 special..my bullets are a fairly soft range scrap, 50-50 solder mix..I have had to make up custom expanders some .001" under to right at bullet dia. in order not to reduce size..accuracy is excellent & there is no leading.

[geargnasher]

M die is junk. Get the RCBS Cowboy expander.

Gear

[facetious]

Do you have the Lee dies that resize the loaded round as it crimps it. I think it is called a FCD . I have never tryed one but not meny seam to like them.

[Bret4207]

Pastor, you didn't give you load or mention if the gun had been cleaned of jacket fouling before shooting cast., Both can have a major impact on leading. Were it me I'd proceed as follows-

1- You are going to need a different expander, that's for sure. And you may need a different seater. Seater or crimp die "squish" happens because most dies are cut for jacketed bullets. I don;t care how "hard" you make your lead, it can happen. Gear suggested RCBS Cowboy dies which are cut for cast. That's an easy way to get dies more suited to cast.

2- Clean the gun of jacket fouling.

3- What load are you using and what design boolit? If it's a Tumble Lube Lee design, you may have leading problems no matter what. They are a decent design if the fit is right, but IME it's always sink or swim with them- they either work or they don't. Even if it's a standard design your load may simply be too hot for that boolit in the gun. Consider other loads and start low. The old 2.7 grs Bullseye with a 150ish gr boolit usually works if the fit is anywhere near right.

Chances are you'll lick this. You're already showing signs of understanding what to look for, so good on you for that! Harder alloy alone won't fix your issues alone I'm afraid. That alloy should work if you can get cast friendly dies and find a load that it handles.

[fecmech]

You are not perhaps using the Lee Factory crimp die are you?

[Wayne Smith]

I don't usually disagree with Gear, but this time I have to. The Lyman M die is not junk. You may need a custom plug to fit your chamber, but the die is not junk. There are several on this board who are capable and willing to make a custom M die insert.

Pastor, did you measure with a caliper or a micrometer? Calipers generally are incapable of accurate measurement beyond hundreds and you need thousands.

I will agree with Gear that the RCBS Cowboy die is excellent.

[Longwood]

I don't usually disagree with Gear, but this time I have to. The Lyman M die is not junk. You may need a custom plug to fit your chamber, but the die is not junk. There are several on this board who are capable and willing to make a custom M die insert.

Pastor, did you measure with a caliper or a micrometer? Calipers generally are incapable of accurate measurement beyond hundreds and you need thousands.

I will agree with Gear that the RCBS Cowboy die is excellent.

Not a .38 but the latest experiment with my expander plug from Track of the Wolf and a taper crimp die sure seems to be working well.
It does not have the goofy :veryconfu 'M' name but it has the step and does the same thing.

[Bardo]

I would get a new expander die. And I would get the cowboy die. The last 2 M dies I have gotten in the last year didnt work for me and I ended up getting the rcbs cowboy dies. Also if you have a old set of dies like the steel ones not carbide, they alot of times have bigger plugs. I was given a rcbs set a few years ago and that is the expander die I use for my 38's. Or you could have lathsmith (a member here) make you a custom one. He did this for me for my 41 mag and it worked great, he will make it the diameter and length you want. And it wasnt that much. Also try R-P brass it is a little thinner and has worked great for me with lead. Some will say it splits but if you dont over work the neck when expanding and crimping it last a long time. I got some that I have load just over 30 times, these were all light target loads and not nickle plated. I would also slug your throats to make sure they arent under sized compared to your barrel.

Bardo

[Swede44mag]

The first and last LEE .357/.38 die set seriously undersized the brass. After getting the "We never made an undersized die" from LEE I tossed them in the trash and bought a Dillon Carbide die set. I also use a taper crimp die from C&H just enough squeeze to make the jacket touch the boolit but not so much to make it any smaller.

As others have said check your cylinder throats. I have a DW 44mag that the throats were .427 and shot a five gallon bucket group at 25 yards. After opening the throats to the proper size the groups shrank down to 1.25” or less.

I am not trying to trash LEE products. I have sets of LEE rifle dies that I have no problems with.

Good luck and I hope you get the problem figured out.

[Longwood]

I

I will agree with Gear that the RCBS Cowboy die is excellent.



I finally took the bait and bought a set of 45 colt cowboy dies.
I got two expander plugs with it.
The .452 marked expander measures .450. The one marked .454 measures .4525.
Neither of them has the second step that the "M" die has.
I am not sure yet what I paid the extra money for.:veryconfu Maybe the cutesie brass nuts.:shock:

[pastor]

Thanks you all for the replys,
Ill answer some of the questions now,
1. no not using a Lee FCD
2. the load is Unique powder right in the middle of the range dont hold me to this but i think the min. load 4.7gr and max. load 5.7 and loaded to 5.2gr or something close to that, when i talk to my brother i will find out for certain.
3. yes the bore was perfectly clean before we started
4. the bullet design is regular lube rings 140gr swc and we are tumble lubing with 45/45/10
5. i do use calipers, i have a high end set of Mitutoyo calipers that have always read exactly what my micrometer read, at the moment my micrometer is missing cannot find it
6. we did not check the cylinder mouth but I will

again thank you for all the ideas, we are going to try to change a few things one at a time and try to resolve this,
first we will try a much lighter crimp
then probably a lighter load and then different powder, and then maybe different dies...........

THANKS AGAIN

[Char-Gar]

Let me start from square one with a fresh set of eyes...

1. Nothing wrong with your alloy, powder charge and sized bullet diameter.

2. The "spider web" in the barrel caught my attention. I have never seen such a thing, but I don't tumble lube with any kind of concoction. So, the lube might be something to look at.

3. A roll crimp won't swage down a bullet, if done correctly in the crimp groove.

4. However, if you try to pull a loaded round, the bullet must be pushed over the crimp and can indeed be reduced in size, if the crimp is strong enough and the alloy is soft enought. So, this is something to look at. All of this stuff about expanders and neck tension may not be relevant in your case.

5. To check if the expander or crimp is an issue, seat a bullet in a sized and expanded case but do not crimp. Now pull that bullet and measure it. Then you will know if just seating the bullet is the culprit.

6. The 38 Special at your powder charge level does not require a strong crimp. Just turn the case neck in far enough not to catch your finger nail when you run it over the case mouth.

7. There is also the possible issue of a rough forcing barrel forcing cone, that will cause leading big time.

8. Always remember that the autopistol and the revolvers don't always play by the same rules when shooting cast bullets. Just because something works for you in the 45 ACP DOES NOT mean it will work the same way in the autopistol. The autopistol doesn't have the cylinder alignment, cylinder throats, cylinder/barrel gap and forcing cone issues like the revolvers. They are different critters.

So bottom line is:

1. Check to see if you have crimp or expander issues as in #5 above. If you have either crimp or expander issues then correct that.

2. If you don't have crimp or expander issues, then you have either a lube problem or a barrel problem. Pan lube or use a lube size machine with a good soft handgun lube and see it that cures your problem. If it does then you are good to go. If it does not then you have a barrel problem. This too can be solved.

3. Follow a linear path and you can figure this out and fix it.

Best of luck...Charles

[geargnasher]

I don't usually disagree with Gear, but this time I have to. The Lyman M die is not junk. You may need a custom plug to fit your chamber, but the die is not junk. There are several on this board who are capable and willing to make a custom M die insert.

Pastor, did you measure with a caliper or a micrometer? Calipers generally are incapable of accurate measurement beyond hundreds and you need thousands.

I will agree with Gear that the RCBS Cowboy die is excellent.

Yup, great tool as long as you have expensive custom parts made for it that actually put a bellmouth on the case and eliminate the stupid parallel expander steps that are never the right size for cast boolits. Get an RCBS the right size and forget about it.

One of these days I'm going to put up a thread with some good pics, drawings, and explanation of just exactly why Lyman and Lee expander spuds are garbage. It's going to take some doing though. For a good written explanation, I posted a long response to an expander thread in the reloading equipment sub-forum recently.

Gear

[JoeTheMechanic]

i had the same problem with the lee expander. its designed for jacketed bullets and hard cast commercial boolits. simple answer is to get a set of vintage dies off ebay, i got a nice set of RCBS .38 special SWC dies for $25 shipped. the expander in those dies reaches the full depth of a 158grain SWC and measures .356.

using that rcbs expander and a very light roll crimp, straight range scrap boolits dropped in water (water doesnt do much), the pulled boolits measure .357-.3575, too much crimp can take them down to .356 though. some WWs in my aloy should make the water drop more effective, and i bet that will solve the last of the swagging problem.

[44man]

A lot of good answers and some questionable.
The bottom line is the boolits are too soft. You can buy all kinds of stuff trying to work around it but it is never satisfactory.
For most shooting like paper punching or plinking, there is no reason at all for shooting soft lead. The truth is there is no good reason to shoot dead soft lead from any revolver.
I would spend money on antimony and tin to correct the alloy instead of buying every die made.

[marklyftogt]

Buy some linotype on ebay and mix it 4 lbs of your lead plus one pound lino.
If that doesnt work try some of these other things.