View Full Version : Lube Confusion???Alloy???
05-02-2007, 10:33 PM
I have decided I am going to order my lube for LAR45. Now for the hard question.
I am new to using my Lyman 450 Sizer. I have the heater. I am going to shoot the RCBS 200 grain bullet. The cartridge is 358 Winchester. It is an Encore Pistol. Barrel length is 12". I am assuming I can get around 2000 fps. I will be using gas checks. I am hoping to be able to use 4895. I am thinking around 40 grains.
I have two questions:
1. Best lube to use from LAR45?
2. Best alloy mix? I have, WW, pure lead, linotype, and some bulk Tin. I have a good bit of WW, and only about 50# of linotype. I would like to keep my pure lead for my ML. I do not have a problem ordering more tin.
I have done alot of casting for my 45-70, and my ML's. But I have not sized these bullets-I feel I need to size and lube this 358 Winchester??
05-02-2007, 11:55 PM
Sizing depends entirely on your slugged bore measurement and your as cast diameter. Your as cast diameter will vary depending on the alloy you decide on. Size bullet between .001" to .002" over bore diameter. The harder they are the closer to .001" over bore diameter you can keep them.
Where it me I would use the wheel weight alloy with a couple percent of tin and heat treat them to no more than 18 BHN. You could water quench them that would put you in the area of 18 BHN. That should be plenty hard and you can save the lino for something that you really need it in. Heat treating can get WW alloy to 30+ BHN but you neither need nor want that hard. Too much of a good thing is not a good thing.
4895 should work well, I would experiment and use the slowest powder that I can get enough in the case and still get the velocity that I'm after.
Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
05-03-2007, 05:16 AM
What are you intending to use your loads for? Plinking, target, hunting?
Like there is no one best lube, there is also no one best alloy. Your barrel will tell you what it likes best, but your intented use will also have merits. Your RCBS 200 grainer has a decent meplat for hunting purposes. That is not a concern for target or plinking. Since the bullet is gas checked, you can shoot it either soft or hard.
If it were me, I would do the following;
Slug the bore to determine groove and bore size. Do an impact slug of the throat and mic the dimensions. Measure the neck ID of a once fired, unsized case. If the throat dimensions allow, size the bullet to just slip fit into the unsized case. This may be several thousandths bigger than groove, but that's ok if the throat accepts it. Ideally you want that bullet to just slip into a fired case so the base is supported when the normally sized case expands under pressure to seal the chamber. There's just enough clearance for the bullet to release safely, yet not enough for it to cant. The front driving band should be seated out to just engage the throat so that it's supported and centered. The bore ride nose should set in the bore with just slight resistance. With this three point support, there's no place for the bullet to go but straight down the bore. That said, it will be pure luck if you can do this with an "off the shelf mold" and a factory gun. Do the best you can with what you have.
With the bullet fit as best as possible, try just straight air cooled wheel weights. It may just surprize you and will save the hassle of hardening. A softer alloy will bump up some if the bullet fit is a little off. Look for any leading just ahead of the throat area. It's usually from a poorly fit bullet, but if the bullet fit is ok it may suggest a harder alloy. I would probably cast up a 100 bullets, water dropping half of them and air cooling half. Try them side by side with the same loads. Make sure they age at least a week before shooting for full hardness. For a really good hunting alloy, mix your WW's with 50% pure lead. This alloy will be around 9-10 Bhn air cooled and 18-22 Bhn heat treated. It's more malleable than staight WW's and will expand, at your velocity when hardened. I and several others have found it to be more accurate than straight WW's too.
For lube, your just going to have to try them and see. There is no one best lube where accuracy is the primary concern. Almost all of them will prevent leading if the bullet fits. Almost all of them are too slick too and will give flyers now and then. Try to avoid the hardest of the lubes and try a soft one and work towards semi-hard as pressure dictates. Most lubes can be thinned out with vaseline or mineral oil according to a well informed source.
How well you will be able to get this bullet/barrel combination to shoot will be primarily bullet fit and then trying different alloys, lubes, and powders til it does. It should easily shoot sub-inch groups at 100 yards.
05-03-2007, 09:21 AM
I have a BLR .358. I use the RCBS 35-200 boolit cast with ww + 2% tin or a very close approximation of that alloy, air cooled. The boolit has a BHN of ~ 14. My method uses Al Millers recommendation to NOT size your boolits if at all possible. Since RCBS moulds will cast .001 oversize (in my experience), I used a .360 sizer die in my lubri-sizer. The boolits are lubed & GC'd and don't appear to be more than slightly burnished (at most) using the .360 sizer die. Using my method and VV N135, I get 2430 fps (@ 15') and good accuracy at 100 yds. My barrel is a standard Douglas (e.g. not match grade) so it isn't as smooth as a match barrel, but works just fine IMO. Use the fore-going for what it's worth...Pilgrim
05-03-2007, 10:13 AM
Lar45 makes about 3 different lubes for non ML weapons. The hardest is Red Carnuba. There are two other softer lubes that might be ok for your use. He will send samples of all three if you ask. I use the Red Carnuba. I like the color red on a boolit. I probably do not really need to use it on my pistol rounds as a softer lube would do just a well but I do not want to have to clean out my SAECO Lubrisizer when I go to Mauser or .223 rounds. So I use one lube for everything. It works fine on my 380, 9MM, 38's and .45 at any velocity. I load a hand cast LEE 170 LRN in my 8 x57 Mauser over 14 gr of Red Dot and get about 1700 fps and decent accuracy. With the .223 CZ bolt I load 23 gr of Accurate 2200 under a 55 GR j-word and it gives me 3450 and excellent accuracy. With a cast 60 gr Lyman 225646 and GC'd over 6 gr of UNIQUE I get 1800 fps but the accuracy is not too good. I am going to try a 40 gr cast and see if that works better. The Red Carnuba needs a heater to get it flowing and once it starts it works very easily. I place the sized rounds in a cigar box with some corn starch and it keeps the lube from getting sticky and nasty. It is cheap and readily available. If you do not go this route the rounds will cling together in a clump and leave a sticky residue on your fingers etc. It does however stay in the lube grooves and does a good job but handling and storing is easier with the corn starch method. The stuff is harmless unless you get it wet. Then you get white mud that when dried goes back to corn starch. Maybe bugs will eat it but I have not had that problem. You will enjoy this lifestyle and you will find a wealth of information on this forum available 24/7. Good luck,
Dan (Crash) Corrigan (Sleepless in Vegas)
05-03-2007, 10:53 AM
Please explain the Corn Starch??? A picture would be great. A little bit of it, or alot of it? I never heard of that, but I am sure willing to try it. I bought some plastic ammo boxes that are wide open, I was going to store the bullets in there-I am assuming you are using the corn starch as media? Tom.
05-03-2007, 09:37 PM
Put a table spoon or two of corn starch into a container. A round plastic ice cream gallon container would work well or a cigar box will also work. Then add your boolits. Shake it up in a circular manner until the entire boolit surface is coarted with corn starch. dont bother to clean off the stuff when you assemble the rounds. The corn starch is harmelss and will not crud up your dies. This will keep your lubed and sized rounds from clumping up and you will not lose any lube. You can always add more if needed and too much will not harm anything.
05-03-2007, 11:13 PM
Crash, good hint, I have used baby powder and sifted the bullets over a 1gallon ice cream bucket. I have done this over 20-30 years and never had a problem with it.
05-03-2007, 11:59 PM
Halfbreed: What is the main ingredient in Baby Powder? Corn Starch. I buy the store brand @ 99 cents for 8 ounces. The same 8 ounces has lasted me about two years and it is still almost full. You see I do not throw the stuff out. I keep the rounds in the cardboard box and dump the boolits into the Dillon tray but I save the box and unstuck CS. I add more lubed boolits and another tablespoon of CS and shake it up again for while. When I get done I still HAVE MORE LEFT IN THE BOX. I was raised to save,,,,,save,,,,,save. I have about 10 5 gallon buckets in various tire stores around town which I havest about once a month. I have my name in large print all over the bucket with my phone number. I ask the guys to give me a call when it is half full since I do not enjoy humping 150 lbs of ww's in one bucket. I am too old and frail for that ****. My favorite is a truck stop. I empty that bucket once a week....gotta love those 8 and 12 ounce looong ww's. Yet with all this I am always looking at the ground when walking near pavement for those errant ww's. I have my wife also trained to do the same. I once had a turn down at a chain store for ww's. I sent my wife in the next day with a bucket and a long story about her dad making lead soldiers for her son etc. That was two years ago. I have harvested over 15 5 gallon buckets of ww's from them since. I have no shame when it comes to getting lead to cast boolits from. My dentist saves his x ray lead wrappers for me. I am also prone to stopping by whenever I see an old building being demolished. Has anybody every bothered to check out an indoor range for range scrap? Just a thought.
05-04-2007, 12:09 AM
Crash, I sift mine over the bucket so it can be saved too, I use a plastic kitchen strainer with large holes in it. make the job quick and easy. I too buy the cheap store brand. unfortunantly there are no indoor ranges around here that I know of, and I bet I would know of them. But good places to find lead if they are in your area.
05-04-2007, 04:19 AM
Holy smokes, one thread that gives all the information required and so easily. Wonderful job all of you! This one should be kept on top with the best of them.
Several statements on lube were on the money, let the gun decide. Work for an accurate load and then work the lube like you did the powder charge. You will find one that will tighten groups more then another. You shouldn't have to worry about leading when the boolit fits and you use Lar's lube.
I would suggest only lubing so many boolits with one lube while working loads so you have some left to try another lube, in other words, don't lube 1000 boolits all with one lube. Of course you can always make more boolits.
And use one lube when working loads, don't mix any, find the load first.
05-04-2007, 02:47 PM
I ordered 10 tubes of the BAC. I ordered it Thursday-I got an e-mail from LAR45 that it shipped on Friday. That seems like pretty good service to me. I tried to interpolate the information that I received, and the information that I read on all the posts that I pulled up in the Search area. I ended up with the BAC- now we will see. Here is what they are going in. Tom.
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