Substitute for Cream of Wheat

[.357MAN]

I have never used filler like CoW, but I think a filler might solve my leading in my revolver. I don't have access to CoW right now, so I thought I would ask you guys if this looks like a good substitute. Its made by Gerber and its a whole grain baby cereal. Yes! I am serious. Its all I could find in the cupboard that looked like it could work. Its crunchy little flakes. What are your guy's thoughts about using it?

[Maven]

I don't have a objection to using it as long as you take certain precautions. (I used to use Quaker Bran, run through an electric coffee mill.) To wit, make up a few starting loads with your favorite propellant and CB, let them sit for a few weeks and then pull them apart to see whether the Gerber cereal compacts into a solid mass. If it does, DON'T use it. However, this begs the question, why do you need a filler in a handgun load in the first place?

[geargnasher]

Even if it does form a solid mass, what's it going to hurt in a straight-walled revolver cartridge? Just follow the normal precautions with any filler like that and reduce the powder charge and work the load up again with the filler. I do know that the cereal fillers can dehydrate the smokeless powder and that can cause some issues, but I'm no expert on it. CoW does the same thing.

So you live in American and can't get CoW? What's up with that?

Gear

[waksupi]

Fillers aren't for handguns. Fix the problem that is causing the leading.

[.357MAN]

The gun is a 6 inch Ruger GP100 in 357 magnum, I have been trying to get it to shoot plain base cast bullets for a while now. I've been using 2400 powder, and in any load even reduced the barrel always manages to lead in the last 2 inches no mater how soft or hard the lead is. Its not bad leading but its there and it builds up slowly. I've been reading about fillers, and thought I'd try it. Hearing you say that about the caking made my think twice about using this Gerber cereal, it may be a dehydrated formula, as it's kind of sticky like powder formulas are. I think I'll look for a known filler next time I'm in town.

[Larry Gibson]

Fillers aren't for handguns. Fix the problem that is causing the leading.

+1

Larry Gibson

[725]

I think I would look for a better lube before I'd look for a band-aid. Check out the lube section and review some of Ben's efforts.

[.357MAN]

The lube may be the problem. I pan lube with a lube that is 40% beeswax, 20% Lee's Alox, 20% JPW, and 20 petroleum jelly. I am no bullet lube expert, so I don't know if this combination is fitting for my application.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The gun is a 6 inch Ruger GP100 in 357 magnum, I have been trying to get it to shoot plain base cast bullets for a while now. I've been using 2400 powder, and in any load even reduced the barrel always manages to lead in the last 2 inches no mater how soft or hard the lead is.
my 2¢
I wouldn't waste time with a filler.
Ruger has had some issues with barrel constriction at the threads.
from your discription, that'd be my first guess.
Slug your barrel and pay particular attention when pushing
the slug through the threaded area...you should be able to feel it.
If that is the problem, Ruger should fix that for you.

also, take the time to slug the cylinder throats.
if they are smaller than the groove dia of the barrel, that's a problem.
Jon

[303Guy]

There's no way a 357 should lead a bore with plain base boolits.

[.357MAN]

I have thought about it being a constriction, It would explain it leading in the same place and at all pressure levels, but the leading is only on the lands. I though that with a constriction leading is on both the lands and the groves.

Ok this is the technical data.

cylinder throat slug diameter is .3582"

Barrel slug diameter is unable to measure because of offset rifling, but slug slides in and out easily in the cylinder throats.

lead is 10 Parts scrap lead and 3.5 parts linotype
hardness tested with a Lee lead hardness taster, AC BHN is 12,
heat treats to BHN 17.

Bullet is from a 6 CAV 358-158-RF, and I removed the bevel base from the mold, so now it casts plain base bullets.
I weight sorted, Avg weight is 159.5 gr and kept only +3gr./-3gr. from the average.
sized to .3585". Then heat treated.

Loaded in a Winchester 357 mag case, at a COAL of 1.556".
Primer is a Winchester WSP.
Powder is Alliant 2400, used 10.5 gr. up to 13 gr.
Leading got worse going up and at 13 gr. it was the worst. Recovered bullets show erosion at the base. And erosion at the edge of the lands started with anything greater than 11.5 gr. of powder.

I hope this helps. The things that I can think of is: It does have a constriction and I just don't know what it looks like, it could be the lube is failing, and the alloy could be too week. I guess I figured that if I used something like CoW It would fix it without all the hassle of figuring-out what could be causing the leading.

[.357MAN]

oh! another thing is the pistol has around 600 factory round, about 1000 reloads through it, 500 of the reload have been cast, and about 55% of all rounds has been 357 mag. This is my first pistol and the gun I started my first reloading with. So I am new at this but I have read a lot, I know that's not as good as good old experience, but I think I have a grasp on most of the things involved.

[rintinglen]

I'd try a .359 boolit, before I went much further. If your bore is in fact .3582 and your boolits are only .0003 larger, there may be some obturation issues with your hard boolits (17 BHN) IIRC. I'd try a softer, larger boolit.

[waksupi]

Size to .359. Go bigger if necessary.

[.357MAN]

LOL I have gone up to .360, but that was with lead that was 14 BHN.

[waksupi]

Are you measuring with a micrometer? I'm starting to smell a rat.

[.357MAN]

Sorry about the fast post. Yes I have gone bigger, just not yet with this hard of a alloy.
It all leads to some degree in the same spot, on the lands in the last 2 inches. Also I have been dieing to ask, Is it average to get 3.5 inch groups at 25 yards on a rest? because that's about my average for my best load 6 shot groups.

Yes I am using a micrometer, not an expensive one, but one none the lest. I would never give .000X without one, and for your ease of mind those measurements are averages of 2 or more slugs and multiple measuring from those slugs. They are spot on!

[.357MAN]

I'd try a .359 boolit, before I went much further. If your bore is in fact .3582 and your boolits are only .0003 larger, there may be some obturation issues with your hard boolits (17 BHN) IIRC. I'd try a softer, larger boolit.

Sorry for my ignorance, is 17 BHN to hard? I shoot all my rounds into a bullet trap filled with rubber mulch and they retain there features. And bullets of 14 BHN started to lose there grip with the rifling[ larger land cuts, followed with gas cutting. ] with about 10.5 gr. of 2400. 17 BHN bullets wouldn't till 11.5 gr. Sorry, I don't know the velocities, but judging by there kick, report, and primer flattening, these are not even near max. So where am I going wrong with the BHN?

[MikeS]

Have you tried any other powder other than 2400? With the lighter loads you might want to try something a bit faster, perhaps Unique.

[303Guy]

OK, assuming there is some issue with the gun itself, a filler-wad might solve the problem. I would try wheat germ and wheat bran then maybe grits. I'm not suggesting you try anything, only saying what I would do. (Wheat bran needs to be sieved and low temperature baked - for long term, to kill the bugs). I've no idea how a wad-filler would behave with the cylinder gap and forcing cone. But I would try the wheat germ first just the same. (I would wear eye and ear protection).8-)

[.357MAN]

Sadly, no. I guess I could not give up after I started. It also showed the most promise.
Powders I have in hand are HODGDON: clays, HP-38, HS-6, and H110. IMR Trail Boss. and 2400.

[.357MAN]

"(I would wear eye and ear protection)." I never leave without them.
"OK, assuming there is some issue with the gun itself" Unfortunately that's what it's sounding like to me the more I talk about it. Kinda a big bummer.

[303Guy]

What ever you do, don't give up. Think of it this way, if you find a solution you'll become a star. Besides, you have the gun so why not have fun with it?

[.357MAN]

Thanks for the help, and support. I will try a good known filler and if that don't work I'll read up on fire lapping and maybe proceed with that.

[303Guy]

I was thinking fire-lapping but didn't want to suggest it as I have no experience with fire-lapping revolvers.

Good luck and keep us posted. In fact, from a problem solving point of view, a regular progress report would be most interesting. :drinks:

[MikeS]

While it's more expensive, perhaps try a non-organic filler such as PSB or Puff- lon (I think that's what it's called). I have PSB, it's basically small polyester balls that are smaller than most powder grains, when I use it, I generally use a powder measure to dispense it so that each cartridge gets exactly the same amount of filler. It's sold by Precision Reloading, and I think a quart sized plastic bottle of it cost around $10.00 or so. The nice thing about it is that it's not going to absorb moisture so it won't effect powder, or cake up into a solid plug like some of the natural fillers can. I'm also curious how it would work in a revolver cartridge.

[randyrat]

There is a "sticky" thread on COW (cream of Wheat) used as a lead cleaner for revolvers (under cast boolits section). WOW! COW is a good bore cleaner, I've used it.

READ and be safe about it. MOLLY had a couple good threads on the subject, very interesting. Work your loads up. I shoot a wheel full when I'm done with one "problem child" 44 pistol ............... Yep your right it is a Ruger and I'm almost sure it is a barrel restriction near the barrel threads. I will get this fixed some day.

I can see a bunch of cereals that would work in the same section near where COW can be found. I just don't trust any of them for long term storage next to powder including COW.

Chances are that GP100 has a barrel restriction near the threads also....Check the cylinder throats also.

[MikeS]

Randy, do you think something like PSB would clean the bore like COW does?

[Larry Gibson]

You might consider a dacron filler instead of COW or other grains.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

psb is not a bore scrubber.
if the leading is on the lands and not in the grooves i would expect chatter marks on the rifling to be the problem.
i have a douglas 5r rifle bbl with some chatter on the lands near the muzzle.
if the leading is down the bbl away from the throat [which many rugers do] i'd measure just that part of the bbl and compare to the whole bbl slug.
you could have some residual copper in that part of the bbl causiing your leading.
and is it leading?
or is it antimonial wash,does it build up,affect accuracy?

[.357MAN]

There is a "sticky" thread on COW (cream of Wheat) used as a lead cleaner for revolvers (under cast boolits section). WOW! COW is a good bore cleaner, I've used it.

READ and be safe about it. MOLLY had a couple good threads on the subject, very interesting. Work your loads up. I shoot a wheel full when I'm done with one "problem child" 44 pistol ............... Yep your right it is a Ruger and I'm almost sure it is a barrel restriction near the barrel threads. I will get this fixed some day.

I can see a bunch of cereals that would work in the same section near where COW can be found. I just don't trust any of them for long term storage next to powder including COW.

Chances are that GP100 has a barrel restriction near the threads also....Check the cylinder throats also.

What would I be looking for in the cylender throats?

[Moonie]

What would I be looking for in the cylender throats?

Diameter, if the throats are smaller than your groove you will have issues.

[.357MAN]

psb is not a bore scrubber.
if the leading is on the lands and not in the grooves i would expect chatter marks on the rifling to be the problem.
i have a douglas 5r rifle bbl with some chatter on the lands near the muzzle.
if the leading is down the bbl away from the throat [which many rugers do] i'd measure just that part of the bbl and compare to the whole bbl slug.
you could have some residual copper in that part of the bbl causiing your leading.
and is it leading?
or is it antimonial wash,does it build up,affect accuracy?

From what I can see the lands have a good polished look, way better then the groves which still have the original machining marks. It's definitely not copper fouling, as I am very thorough with cleaning the barrel and cylinders. It is leading but it's not really bad, it's hazy looking to start, most of it can come out with oscillating a dry patch over the effected area. It comes out like micro flattened lead droplets and it dose build up. After 6 rounds its noticeable, after 24+ it's thicker than a haze, I don't like it like that so I clean it all out. As for accuracy, I don't know. The best groups I have ever got was average 2.5" 6 shot groups at 25 yd with cast 10 BHN 38 special with a full load of Trail Bose. But with magnum loads I can't get consistent 6 shot groups under 3". So the pistol has not been very accurate, I don't know if it's me or the pistol, as I am the only one that shoots it. Sounds like a good idea to slug both ends and compare, I will cast some pure lead next time I am casting to check this.

I wonder if I am over taxing the lead, according to others on the internet I should be able to use full house loads with the 17 BHN, but in load development I can't get close to max loads before the land engravings get large and it gas cuts. Am I wrong about the hardness do I need harder bullets? Or could something be wrong with the pistols rifling that's causing the wide engravings?

[.357MAN]

Diameter, if the throats are smaller than your groove you will have issues.

I would assume that the groves would be leading[ it's leading on the lands], and it would lead through the whole length of the barrel if the cylinders where to small. Am I wrong in assuming this?

[.357MAN]

Ok I took a closer look at the lands and there is very fine chatter, but I can't see it good enough to know how much there is. I'm going to try to get a closer look. It's there, but I have no experience to know if it's bad. So how much chatter will it take to cause leading? And what dose the leading from chatter look like?

[John Boy]

Recovered bullets show erosion at the base. Bingo! Gas stripping from too small of a diameter bullet or too high of a velocity or a combination of both. So them down and use a larger base bullet.

[303Guy]

Some folks have reported a significant improvement in accuracy with rifles when using wheat bran filler. It's fibrous so it may have some advantages over COW.

Something that is known to polish bores is the paper patch.

[45 2.1]

psb is not a bore scrubber.


That depends entirely on how it is used. It can leave nice polished clean bores, provided its used correctly.

[.357MAN]

what constitutes correctly? I thought loads with fillers need smaller powder charge[ 5-10% ] and enough filler for a slight compression. Am I wrong?

[45 2.1]

what constitutes correctly? I thought loads with fillers need smaller powder charge[ 5-10% ] and enough filler for a slight compression. Am I wrong?

Different fillers are, or should be, used for specific purposes. Use the wrong one and it defeats its use. Fillers can be used just to hold back a light charge against the primer or to reduce case capacity and buffer a load. All depends on what your trying to do. Ground corn corb or any hard granular filler can rip the shoulder/neck off the case and send it out the muzzle if not used correctly. Fillers are not something to use lightly.

[runfiverun]

the globs of lead indicate gas cutting. most definatly.
the quest now is to discover what is causing it.
i doubt it is the alloy etc i would definatly look for a mechanical [the gun] issue.
since rugers are known for either a tight spot in the bbl under the frame and for undersized cylinder throats that is where i would start.

[runfiverun]

That depends entirely on how it is used. It can leave nice polished clean bores, provided its used correctly.

that is true.
but i believe it does so not through scrubbing but by providing a gas seal and base protection to the boolit.
it is a/the h/v cast rifle buffer of choice though.

[a.squibload]

...It all leads to some degree in the same spot, on the lands in the last 2 inches.

For clarification, muzzle or cylinder end?

[MtGun44]

I use air.

Cheap, easy to install, never get too much or too little.

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

[.357MAN]

"For clarification, muzzle or cylinder end?" It's leading at the muzzle end.

"I use air." LOL! That's what I've been using too, but it's not doing a good enough job.

[fcvan]

I have never used COW but have used corn meal. Back when I shot round balls from an 1858 Remington Copy I read about using corn meal as a filler to shoot compressed reduced loads and to prevent chain fires. I noticed how it really kept the fouling down.

Recently, I started loading corn meal filler loads for .45 Colt for a Vaquero and an H&R 1871 Classic Carbine. The load is 8 grains of unique topped off with corn meal. The rounds shoot more like 10 grains, standard deviation was reduced, and groups were consistently small.

The bores of both weapons where clean as a whistle and still had a thin residue of lube. I also noticed a lot less smoke from my lube, almost like I was shooting jacketed bullets. I enjoyed the results of the initial test and plan on trying different load combinations including some round ball loads just for the heck of it. Frank

[.357MAN]

I found some cream of wheat, but it's instant. Will this work?

[303Guy]

I've finally found out exactly what COW is. It is cause ground wheat starch with no fibre in it (the bran and germ is removed). I can see why it can compact with moisture. I'm surprised that it removes leading from the bore but if it works, why not! Just don't store it loaded is all. I liked the nature of grits which did work in the Brit but it concaved the boolit bases (soft alloy) and left a wad in the concave. I've no idea how it would have performed on the range. I only test tube tested them. It does raise the pressure which is good for slow powders. This is where I get envious about the long necked Krag - plenty room for an under boolit wad! Not so in the Brit.

Have a look at wheat germ. You'll see why it appeals to me and is my filler of choice in the Brit.

[guidogoose]

Have you ever thought of trying a commercially cast bullet to see if it still leads? Maybe a friend casts?