Concealed Carry Question

[archmaker]

In another thread this was stated . . .

"If he sees it, It aint concealed. In NC it can't print through your clothes or be visible in any way."

So my question is . . . if I am wearing a loose fitting t-shirt and I am carrying, and I can see a slight bulge there when looking in the mirror, but most people don't notice it. Then am ok?

To further my point, I believe if an officer walked up to me and asked if that was a concealed carry on my hip, then I am still ok. Why, because he had to ASK! If he knew it was a weapon, then I failed on concealing it.

Am I thinking this right?

[shaune509]

I think this is one that needs to be asked to the state ag's office with a writen and signed responce for your records. As an example in Washington state if an open carry weapon is partialy covered by a loose fitting shirt or coat, ie belt rig with butt covered by coat, 'it is concelled' and you better have a permit on you. Also 'brandishing' is loosly defined and can get you called out because some one was upset that they may have seen your concelled gun when you nealt over to tie your shoe.
Shaune509

[hiram1]

Keep it hid so you wont be saying shoot me first.dont put your self in a bad light.just keep it cool and all will be ok.

[geargnasher]

This is one of those instances where, if you have to ask, you're probably in violation of the technicalities of the law. IIRC the statute says something to the effect that no one should suspect you are carrying by looking at you. I find fanny packs and medium-sized leather day planners to be very effective total concealment for most any occasion (casual and dress). It's tough to beat a day planner although you have to hold it all the time. We have a saying in this area that if somebody's wearing a fanny pack, they're wearing a gun unless they're packing a day's supply of pumkin seeds, dried fruit, and a bottle of sparkling water, which is the other scenario. Thing is, you can't tell the difference.

Gear

[bob208]

first read the law make sure of what it states. here in pa. there are a lot of people giving false info you don't know what to belive. even the letter that is sent out telling you what is prohibed is all false info. around here even the cops don't know the law.

[archmaker]

Well Gear your comment made me look up the statue, and here is something interesting . . .

Texas Statue says "“Concealed handgun” means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person."

Webster defines "discernable" as "Perceptible, as by the faculty of vision or the intellect."

Under those meaning I would have to say wearing a vest in July in Houston puts you in violation of the law, based upon using my intellect and my powers of ordinary observation as an reasonable person.

Similiar to your comment about a guy wearing a fanny pack.

I think the problem is, is that the law itself and the definition of concealed is not "easy" to nail down.

I don't look like I am carrying and the sometimes wrinkle on my right side could be a phone, colostomy bag, or leatherman tool. Not always a gun. If i wear my ripstop vest in July according to MY understanding of the law than I may be in trouble.

THAT in my opinion is why I asked the question. The law itself does not "clarify" but insteads "muddies" the waters. :(

[bobthenailer]

Try useing a inside the waste band holster and a loose fitting shirt ! i carry mine just in ahead of my right hip and have no problems with my Kahrs , a PM9 & CW45 with 3 & 3.5 inch barrels. Also a double stack style gun is usually wider than a single stack gun and leaves a bigger print , thats why i quit carring my Para Ordance, P12 in the warmer months

[Bret4207]

See if the laws in your states mention the word "intent". In NY intent is a factor in most crimes involving firearms or deadly weapons. For instance- it's illegal to posses a "billy" in NY, but perfectly legal to posses a "tire knocker" or a sawed off pick handle or a stick of stove wood. There is no difference between them until they are used, or possessed with intent to use them as a "billy". The same follows for other laws. Check case law too if you can access it. Intent often plays a large part in prosecution.

[375RUGER]

So what exactly does the law in NC say? I see you are in TX.

In NM it's ;“concealed handgun” means a loaded handgun that is not visible to the ordinary
observations of a reasonable person;

which I take to mean covered,
and I take it to mean or at least I can make a reasonable argument that this excludes LE, becasue they have an extraordinary interest in the observation of the public for safety concerns and are trained to take notice of things that ordinary citizens don't pay attention too nor are they trained in such.

If a person is legal to carry concealed and the gun is not readily visible then it shouldn't be more than a general interest for LE, if they notice a bulge, to ask for license to make sure you are in compliance.

Now, if some ordinary citizen notices that you are carrying and they get all panicky and call LE then there is some doubt about whether or not you were concealed.

[Moonie]

There is nothing that says a concealed handgun can't print in NC, this is an open carry state, we can open carry with no permit at all. I have a concealed permit so I can conceal in my IWB or tuck my t-shirt behind it, I'm legal either way, even if it prints.

Usually only states that do not allow open carry have issues with printing.

I can see a possible problem in TX as they do not allow open carry, but again, seeing a bulge doesn't mean its a gun, wearing tight spandex over the concealed firearm would be different.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Wisconsin is a open/concealed state it makes no difference how we carry it or if it is visible .

however i can tell you that no one pays any attention to a small bulge , it could just as easily be a cell phone in a belt case , or a knife , or small radio,or insulin pump. colostomy bag

point is that unless your bulge looks like a gun , no one is likely to be able to tell , most people just aren't paying that kind of attention

for my pocket holster if i really want to be sure no one can see my gun i have a extra empty wallet that i put between the holster and the outside of my pocket , they see a square bulge that looks like a fat wallet

or i wear cargo shorts and the extra pocket is over the front of the actual pocket, and an extra mag and my knife fit vertically in that pocket

but for letter of the law you should ask a trainer, the state doj or a lawyer

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

citizens generally don't get panicky , back before we had concealed carry , and all we had was open carry not that many people open carried , but when someone did occasionally some lady would call and ask if it was legal , that the fellas with guns on their belts were just eating burgers, and a half dozen police cruisers would show up infringe the guys rights , and ultimately the department would get sued and loose tax payer money because they were wrong.

now when some one carries open some idiot will say hey that's that concealed carry , no that is open carry , if it were concealed you wouldn't have seen it was a gun.

[Blammer]

in NC we have open carry, so if it is "seen" you're not in violation.

if it "prints" most will think it's a cell phone on your hip or some thing, still no violation. Even if it prints to a "GUN" still no violation.

NC currently recognizes all other states Concealed Carry Handgun permits.

As a CCH instructor for NC I highly recommend to all of my students that they keep it CONCEALED.

ncdoj.gov is your friend for nc LAWS

[Bad Water Bill]

When I took the UTAH C C W course The instructor said never let the BG have a hint you are armed as that will have YOU viewed as the aggressor.

He was a retired defense lawyer used as a friend of the court in hundreds of gun cases.

The only time the BG should know you are armed is when he feels the sudden pain in his heart.

[27judge]

i have a concealed carry permit for maryland (tough state to get one in). i carry a kahr pm9 in a galco iwb it canot be seen with a loose fitting shirt.the kahr is light enough i never know its there. in maryland you do not want it to print to many gun haters tks ken

[Bret4207]

When I took the UTAH C C W course The instructor said never let the BG have a hint you are armed as that will have YOU viewed as the aggressor.

He was a retired defense lawyer used as a friend of the court in hundreds of gun cases.

The only time the BG should know you are armed is when he feels the sudden pain in his heart.

That makes no sense. Seems to me if the BG thinks you might be armed he'd go away.

[Bad Water Bill]

Yes your honor that is the man that shot me. I saw the print of his gun. Do you think me and my 4 friends would go after that OLD man knowing he had a gun? He just pulled it out and shot me cause ?????.

Now can I have my bowie knife back?

[archmaker]

:) You are assuming the guy shot is going to be talking ;)

But in this day and age . . . stupid happens more than it should. :(

[Bret4207]

Yes your honor that is the man that shot me. I saw the print of his gun. Do you think me and my 4 friends would go after that OLD man knowing he had a gun? He just pulled it out and shot me cause ?????.

Now can I have my bowie knife back?

Sorry, still makes no sense to me. If you end up shooting someone you darn well better able to articulate why. And why would they go after the old man after seeing the print of his gun? Makes no sense. Death wish? That's why most people don;t shoot at cops if they have another choice.

[Bad Water Bill]

i am only repeating what the lawyer said.

Also his law license was for Kalifornia.

[Roundnoser]

I'm willing to bet that the intent of the "Imprint" portion of the law is so to prevent the general public from alarm. If John Q Public (the ones who know little about guns and gun laws), observes the imprint of a handgun /pistol inside of a tight t-shirt, etc. He/she might call the police, or otherwise cause a small panic....The uneducated populace views anyone with a gun (other than a police officer) as a bad guy.

As a an LEO, I carry a firearm on and off duty. Although it may be uncomfortable or inconvenient, I wear bulkier clothes, jackets, vest, etc. Or, if it its really hot, I'll carry a small caliber pistol in a pocket holster. -- I believe that a concealed weapon affords me the element of suprise. The fewer poeple who know I'm carrying, the better.

[Lonegun1894]

Same here as Roundnoser, except in TX. I always carry, regardless of where I am. And the few places they prefer I don't carry when off duty, I just don't go. As another thing, like has been said, LEOs are trained in what to look for and often will notice things that the general public wont, so I would say to check your laws, and if you gave any questions after that, then call whichever agency it is that issued your license, as they should be your best source of info. Personally, I carry at least 2 guns at all times. My main is a 5" 1911 .45, a 4 5/8" Ruger Vaquero .45, or a 4" Ruger Security Six .357, with either a compact Rock Island 1911 .45 or a SP-101 .357 as a backup. As Roundnoser said, wearing looser clothes, or an overshirt/vest of some kind will do wonders for keeping even my guns complete. I used to carry a large (7.5" barreled) revolver concealed and still do on occasion, and have yet to be questioned by anyone, LEO or otherwise, as to what that bulge is, and don't even get any different looks or anything from anyone when carrying that revolver, much less the tiny-in-comparison 5" 1911 or 4 5/8" Vaquero.

[Bret4207]

I'm willing to bet that the intent of the "Imprint" portion of the law is so to prevent the general public from alarm. If John Q Public (the ones who know little about guns and gun laws), observes the imprint of a handgun /pistol inside of a tight t-shirt, etc. He/she might call the police, or otherwise cause a small panic....The uneducated populace views anyone with a gun (other than a police officer) as a bad guy.

As a an LEO, I carry a firearm on and off duty. Although it may be uncomfortable or inconvenient, I wear bulkier clothes, jackets, vest, etc. Or, if it its really hot, I'll carry a small caliber pistol in a pocket holster. -- I believe that a concealed weapon affords me the element of suprise. The fewer poeple who know I'm carrying, the better.

I think you're right on both counts.

[shdwlkr]

concealed carry is a strange world to step into as when I carry my 1911 almost always shows if you are looking just my body makeup and when I carry my others you can see no matter how I carry if you are looking hard enough.

I have carried in both Idaho and NM and the LEO's have never missed that I am carrying and never once have asked me why. We talk about it and I have even shown them how I carry my pistols and they agree that I am doing the best I can to keep it hidden and they don't know of a better way for me to carry. Arthritis changes a lot of things in your life and for me I am happy to know I am not seen as a threat to anyone.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

an oversize light weight shirt will go a long way to covering up lots , think Hawaiian shirt for the heat , buy it a size or two large

i like fishing shirts like the kind they sell at gander mountain they have the vented back and under arms , and nice pockets , when it is hot i will wear a tank top under shirt then the fishing shirt it isn't much warmer than a t-shirt

as for t-shirts get the longer cut ones that are meant to cover plumbers crack , i am a big guy i don't wear tight or "fitted" anything

if your carrying IWB buy a size larger pants , no one is going to be checking your tags to see what size your wearing, your belt will cover it

[Bret4207]

One of the nice things about getting older and dressing like a bum most of the time anyway is that a Smith Bodyguard in the right front pocket of your baggy jeans doesn't print at all. I realize it's not the answer for everyone, especially those who can't get away from big guns, but it works.

[shotman]

here in wv we have open carry. Well the city cops saw this guy with a Red Hawk on his side. so they {young cops} want to see his permit. He said he didnt need one. So they take his gun and aresst him. Cost the city about $5000. So they put an ordance in to prohibit open carry in the city limits. They run into a problem then that they couldnt stop anyone that had a permit. So what many are doing is open carry that have the permit.
I have a problem with open carry. The problem is the average person dont know how to protect that weapon from someone that walks up graps the gun and takes money AND gun. I dont want anyone to see anything but the flash

[Lonegun1894]

I personally open carry when on duty, but conceal at all other times exceot on my private property. Having said that, I wish Texas allowed open carry, because, well, if you and I are trusted enough to be allowed to carry a gun to begin with, I think that pretty much proves that we are mature enough to decide for ourselves if we would rather have it concealed or open. As to someone grabbing a gun from an open carrier, this is why I always have a concealed back-up even on duty. I have never had my weapon taken from me even though several have tried. But at the same time, IF anyone ever does take your weapon, I personally believe that YOU are responsible for getting it back by whatever means necessary since it is YOUR responsibility and you're the one that failed to maintain control of it. For me, this is where the back-up comes in, because no criminal will take your gun without the intention of using it, weather that is on you or other innocent people. This is also why I will make sure no one ever takes mine, because I will not live my life wondering if or what I could have done different to prevent some criminal from harming innocent people with my weapon. We are all responsible for what we do with it, and that includes making sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

[Moonie]

here in wv we have open carry. Well the city cops saw this guy with a Red Hawk on his side. so they {young cops} want to see his permit. He said he didnt need one. So they take his gun and aresst him. Cost the city about $5000. So they put an ordance in to prohibit open carry in the city limits. They run into a problem then that they couldnt stop anyone that had a permit. So what many are doing is open carry that have the permit.
I have a problem with open carry. The problem is the average person dont know how to protect that weapon from someone that walks up graps the gun and takes money AND gun. I dont want anyone to see anything but the flash

Actually there are more documented cases of concealed carriers being robbed of their firearm than open carriers.

Personally I do both, as the circumstances warrant, I do use a level 2 retention holster for OC though.

[mortre]

Washington has open carry, and I have my WA CPL. I generally split the difference so to speak. OWB with a double mag pouch on my weak side and a tucked in T-shirt with an unbuttoned shirt over my gun. If it's windy i will button 2 of the bottom buttons to keep the shirt from flying open. I'm sure people and/or police have noticed at some point, but no one has ever said anything to me.

I doubt more than 1 John Q. Public notices a month. John Q. wears blinders most of the time.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

here in wv we have open carry. Well the city cops saw this guy with a Red Hawk on his side. so they {young cops} want to see his permit. He said he didnt need one. So they take his gun and aresst him. Cost the city about $5000. So they put an ordance in to prohibit open carry in the city limits. They run into a problem then that they couldnt stop anyone that had a permit. So what many are doing is open carry that have the permit.
I have a problem with open carry. The problem is the average person dont know how to protect that weapon from someone that walks up graps the gun and takes money AND gun. I dont want anyone to see anything but the flash



but can you think of one case when a legally open carrying person who was not a jailer or law enforcement officer every had a gun grab incident , this argument gets brought up almost every time open carry comes up , but no one is ever able to come up with a case when it happened

could it happen , maybe

has it happened , not that anyone has been able to prove that i have seen or it is exceedingly rare

a citizen carrying an open side arm in a holster , bad guys just seem to not want to take their chances

on the other hand a cop in close proximity to a bad guy , where the BG knows he is out of options it has occasionally happen.

[gbrown]

FYI. I met this fellow at the Pasadena Gun Show a few weeks ago. He was interesting to talk to and was very enthusiastic about his product. He was wearing a knit shirt just as in the video. Had a full sized Glock on. Couldn't really notice. Looked good to me. I may get one to carry a Glock in. Might solve some problems for some. Won't solve any problems of open carry. Not a really expensive solution.

www.kangaroocarry.com

[Bret4207]

Actually there are more documented cases of concealed carriers being robbed of their firearm than open carriers.

Personally I do both, as the circumstances warrant, I do use a level 2 retention holster for OC though.

Could you please provide the source material for your assertion?

[Moonie]

Could you please provide the source material for your assertion?

You are welcome to go to www.opencarry.org and see the research that has already been done on this subject.

Someone concealed carrying is just as likely to be robbed as someone not carrying but someone open carrying is less likely as criminals prefer soft targets. This has been hashed and rehashed many times.

[Blammer]

At the kangaroocarry site I'm still looking for the firearm the woman demo'ing the Air Marshall 3 is suppose to have.

[ErikO]

MO law just got fixed. 'Printing' is no longer against the law or seen as brandishing. Still, it's a bad tactical choice. ;)

[1Shirt]

Unfortunately Erick, it is the bad tech choices that we face and have to worry about. You can be tech right, and dead wrong or wrong and dead.
1Shirt!

[ErikO]

Unfortunately Erick, it is the bad tech choices that we face and have to worry about. You can be tech right, and dead wrong or wrong and dead.
1Shirt!

Too true. Since my go-to gear will be in a Supertuck or somethng simular, the only way I'd print or flash would involve some sort of serious wardrobe malfunction.

[gbrown]

At the kangaroocarry site I'm still looking for the firearm the woman demo'ing the Air Marshall 3 is suppose to have.

Quit looking at other things! :shock: The firearm is there. You are just too distracted by physical attributes!! :bigsmyl2:

[badge176]

Don't rely on Websters or any other source for definitions as related to laws. Statutes usually have a 'definitions' section that sets meaning and it is the only source if it provided. "good sense" is NOT common, so disregard common sense in trying to understand statutes. "reasonableness" is one of the most common, uncommon words you can find in some laws regarding self defense so beware it'll be the reasonableness as viewed by a jury that matters.

[Bullfrog]

This is similar to what I use and I have carried on stage playing several sets at church.
http://shamrockholsters.com/?page_id=70

It is also a state of mind and one has to get over the feeling that they are doing something wrong. Society has so jaded itself to believe that arming oneself is wrong that we feel guilty. If an officer asks you then answer politely.

[Bret4207]

You are welcome to go to www.opencarry.org and see the research that has already been done on this subject.

Someone concealed carrying is just as likely to be robbed as someone not carrying but someone open carrying is less likely as criminals prefer soft targets. This has been hashed and rehashed many times.

Okay, now I understand what you were saying.