PDA

View Full Version : anyone tried reaming .38 spl cases to better fit WCs?



JoeTheMechanic
07-07-2012, 06:07 PM
im wondering if anyone has played with reaming 38spl or any other brass really, so better accept a boolit, particularly wadcutters. factory wadcutters are expensive and rare here, and how my mixed HS brass will swag each WC is a crapshoot. being a borning tinkerer, i had an idea.

im thinking i could size the brass, then ream it to .358 and to the depth that you intend to seat the boolit. my lee mold casts .3585-.359, so at least for me that should be pretty much perfect case tension. and, at least in theory, i could turn any .38 spl brass into WC brass.

there are of course a few things that im not sure about, like tooling marks on the case damaging the boolit, or the brass life being shortened. but the .358 reamer is readily availible so im thinking of trying it.

Frank V
07-07-2012, 06:13 PM
I have never had a problem seating wadcutter bullets. I do flare the case mouth just a bit more for them though. Some cases ,TZZ especially, seem to be thicker & sometimes I'll get a bulge when seating bullets. It doesn't seem to hurt accuracy, but they do chronograph about 35fps faster on an average. A lot of our bullets are bevel base now-days & tend to seat easier that a flat base. I prefer a flatbase myself though.
Good luck.
Frank

454gene
07-07-2012, 06:30 PM
A friend asked if I could make a oversized case expander/powder dump for 45 acp. He has a Dillon and when he loads swaged WC they would get reduced by about a .001. Maybe a larger expander would work.

Longwood
07-07-2012, 07:04 PM
These guys have an .358 expander plug that works with the Lee die.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1221/1

462
07-07-2012, 07:05 PM
A proper "expanding" die that expands the case to the desired diameter and to at least the depth of the boolit is what you want. Lyman's M-die is an excellent example.

The Lee die only "flares" or "bells" the case mouth, and does not expand the case.

Apples and oranges.

Edit to add: Longwood types faster. I've not used them, but those do look like they will expand a case.

HeavyMetal
07-07-2012, 09:26 PM
Your approaching the problem from the wrong end!
Find steel sizing die and polish it out so it doesn't size your case so much!

Did this with an old 310 die, federal match brass for my S&W 52. It worked great!

JoeTheMechanic
07-07-2012, 09:43 PM
These guys have an .358 expander plug that works with the Lee die.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1221/1


didnt see .358 on there, just .377 for the REALLY old .38 bp cartridges.


A proper "expanding" die that expands the case to the desired diameter and to at least the depth of the boolit is what you want. Lyman's M-die is an excellent example.

The Lee die only "flares" or "bells" the case mouth, and does not expand the case.


i am looking at the "m" die for .38 spl as well as "cowboy" dies, but my searches havent turned up much on how deep they will expand and opinions go both ways as to their usefulness.
the lee powder through die actually does expand the neck as well as flare the mouth, its just not deep enough. ideally i would like a die that i could adjust to expand the full depth that the bullet is seater, and then flare the mouth separately if need be.
i've actually had good results with seating the boolits only a little more than 1/2 way, but it makes the rounds noticably position sensitive and where i shoot targets have to be at ground level to please the sheriff and the neighbor. cause you know how pistol boolits bounce off dead trees and travel 180* in the opposite direction for 150 yards with double-wide penetrating force[smilie=l:

JoeTheMechanic
07-07-2012, 10:00 PM
Your approaching the problem from the wrong end!
Find steel sizing die and polish it out so it doesn't size your case so much!

Did this with an old 310 die, federal match brass for my S&W 52. It worked great!

or you could just get cowboy dies, which are supposed to size less, along with other things boolit like.
or just dont size your brass, read of several .38wc guys that dont, but i think that wouldent do so hot in a 52. i've actually got 12 rounds in unsized brass with the soup cans seated to the top groove waiting for my next trip to the range. but sizing the outside doesnt account for case wall thickness, so its still leaving a variable where you dont want one.

i'll probably end up trying the cowboy dies, which are supposed to size the whole case larger as well as expand the neck more, but in the never ending quest for better groups, i bet i will at least try the reamer idea before its all said and done. turning mixed HS brass into perfect target brass is like lead into gold, it will probably never work but holy sheep if it did

Longwood
07-07-2012, 10:23 PM
[QUOTE=JoeTheMechanic;1769428]didnt see .358 on there, just .377 for the REALLY old .38 bp cartridges.

Well rats.:(
I am sorry for leading you astray.
I was looking there last night and sure thought I saw a 358.

williamwaco
07-07-2012, 11:10 PM
One more tip.

DO NOT attempt to load wad cutters in military brass. That brass is so thick you will have real trouble.

JoeTheMechanic
07-07-2012, 11:41 PM
longwood:
Well rats.
I am sorry for leading you astray.
I was looking there last night and sure thought I saw a 358.

they might just list what they have made up, maybe someone bought the last .358. either way i do appreciate it. thats pretty close to what i was thinking when i first started looking at ways to improve my reloading process. i have considered asking a machine shop to duplicate the expander from my lee die but with the expander the length of one of my wadcutters and .358 instead of .356. still might end up going that rout, we'll see after i put in my next midway order on payday.

if anyone is using a cowboy expander from any of the die makers, i would be interested in knowing the dimensions of the expander plug or seeing a picture of the plug itself. i'd hate to buy a die and have no use for it

*edit*

One more tip.

DO NOT attempt to load wad cutters in military brass. That brass is so thick you will have real trouble.

good to know, TY

Longwood
07-07-2012, 11:46 PM
longwood:

they might just list what they have made up, maybe someone bought the last .358. either way i do appreciate it. thats pretty close to what i was thinking when i first started looking at ways to improve my reloading process. i have considered asking a machine shop to duplicate the expander from my lee die but with the expander the length of one of my wadcutters and .358 instead of .356. still might end up going that rout, we'll see after i put in my next midway order on payday.

if anyone is using a cowboy expander from any of the die makers, i would be interested in knowing the dimensions of the expander plug or seeing a picture of the plug itself. i'd hate to buy a die and have no use for it

*edit*


good to know, TY


There are a few machinists here that can do it for you.
Theperfessor and Buckshot come to mind.
Goodsteel may do it for you also.

geargnasher
07-08-2012, 01:27 AM
the lee powder through die actually does expand the neck as well as flare the mouth, its just not deep enough. ideally i would like a die that i could adjust to expand the full depth that the bullet is seater, and then flare the mouth separately if need be.


You're one of the few people on the internet that has exactly and succinctly described the whole problem with Lee expanders, and Dillon and many others for that matter. Most people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of parallel case expansion to get the correct pre-tension dimension the entire depth to which the boolit will be seated.

Knowing exactly what you need, you may find that a few minutes with one of the Track Of The Wolf expanders, a drill press, file, and sandpaper followed by a hacksaw to adjust length and a re-bevel will fix your wadcutter "problem" with most civilian brass.

Along the lines of your original question, I tend to think, like someone else mentioned, that rather than reaming the necks with (for example) a Forster .35 Remington .358" neck reamer, you'd be better served to get an old steel sizing die and hone it out so it gave you the neck tension you needed with fired brass plus another couple thousandths, and use that in conjunction with an expander/bellmouth spud that was the correct length and diameter for your boolits. It would be much easier to use, too, than having to ream each case.

Gear

Longwood
07-08-2012, 01:55 AM
Uniform brass wall thickness is important. If you want to shoot mixed brass and for it to be accurate, it may help some.
With straight walled brass, I kept it simple and shot the same brand of brass and weighed them and uniformed the size of the primer holes but that was about it.
I only recall machining necks twice. Both times with bottle neck brass. Once when I was varmint shooting and was making brass from millitary brass that had a neck wall that was too thick.
The next time was when I made 30-30 brass from 375 Winchester brass when I was competing at IHMSA silhouette shooting.
I tried a reamer but liked the results from the little lathes better.
I got the 30-30 to shooting well enough that I could put three out of five through the hole between the rams head and horn from 220 yards and with open sights
. It was much harder if he was facing right for some strange reason.:veryconfu

JoeTheMechanic
07-08-2012, 09:16 AM
You're one of the few people on the internet that has exactly and succinctly described the whole problem with Lee expanders, and Dillon and many others for that matter. Most people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of parallel case expansion to get the correct pre-tension dimension the entire depth to which the boolit will be seated.

Knowing exactly what you need, you may find that a few minutes with one of the Track Of The Wolf expanders, a drill press, file, and sandpaper followed by a hacksaw to adjust length and a re-bevel will fix your wadcutter "problem" with most civilian brass.
Gear

seems like a pretty straight frwd situation to me. lead is softer than brass, if you put a .358 boolit in a hole that tapers to .355, the boolit is going to end up tapering pretty close to .355, a little bigger due to the brass stretching as the boolit is sized/seated but its just common sense. i think i will take a stab at reworking a track of the wolf expander. no drill press here though, will have to settle for a drill and a bench vice. the shop im working in now is so under-equipped it hurts to think about.

Nobade
07-08-2012, 09:26 AM
I made a long expander to do just what you want, then found out if was needed the brass was too thick. I started sorting the brass by headstamp and found out which brands fit best. Then I kept them separate for use with wadcutters.

The main things I learned about shooting wadcutters is, don't resize the cases. Seat the boolits with an arbor press. Use a light taper crimp. Use the right brass. After doing this, my wadcutter ammo is as accurate as the factory stuff and is easy to assemble. Oh, I use the Zero swaged hollow base boolits. They work well and at least used to be cheap. The Remington ones work well too. But not if you resize the brass!

Echo
07-08-2012, 11:25 AM
One more tip.

DO NOT attempt to load wad cutters in military brass. That brass is so thick you will have real trouble.

+1 - Tried GI brass with Hdy HBWC's, and they shot all over the target, rom a good Clark .38. Wall thickness was so much more that they swaged down the soft HBWC all the way to the nose (?) of the bullet.

HeavyMetal
07-08-2012, 11:43 AM
As it's been said: mixed cases can be a can of worms!

I mentioned Federal match cases, bought 500 once fired, specifically for this experiment.

By polishing out the old 310 die I was able to control the amount I sized the case but the end result will

Meaning how well the load shoots, will be affected by the "quality" of your starting point which is your
case.
The 358 expander plug is a good idea but, as you pointed out, case wall tckness well cause issues with exterior diamensions which well effect chambering?

Just posting my notes as food for thought. Notes say I actually do both: control.case sizing and use an expader plug I made t match boolit length. At 358 diameter.

wallenba
07-08-2012, 12:01 PM
Lyman 'M' die is essential for seating my WC's. Nothing else seems to work as well. I now use them for most all of my cast. I used to get rounds that exhibited a slight bulge on one side or the other, now if I get a bulge, it's even all around. Using all the same brand brass, from the same lot, helps with consistancy too.

When I use a Lee charge through die with a case activated powder dispenser, the OD of the expander has been ground down in diameter to not be effective, so that my 'M' die flare is not disturbed. Works for me.

casterofboolits
07-08-2012, 09:51 PM
RCBS used to make a die set specificly for loading wadcutters that had a longer spud to expand the case for the full length of the wadcutter.

GabbyM
07-09-2012, 01:28 AM
My Lyman M die expands the case to a depth that fits my Magma mold 148gr DEWC-BB. Pretty sure I’ve fit the Lyman 358091 also as I have that and it’s a Lyman mold which you’d think they’d of fit the M die to.
If there is a length difference it would be from flat base vs bevel base.

tonyjones
07-09-2012, 11:20 AM
Nobade,

Which arbor press (K&M, Sinclair, etc.) do you use? Do you seat directly with the ram or use something (a punch) that conforms with the nose of the wadcutter? Which brand of taper crimp die do you prefer? I assume it makes little difference. Please post a couple of photos of your set up if it's not too much trouble.

Thanks,

TJ

Nobade
07-09-2012, 12:19 PM
My arbor press is just a plain Chinese one I got from a tool store. It's a cast iron C frame one, not one of the kind like a Sinclair designed to use with Wilson type dies.

I don't use a top punch, just the press ram. Just push it down until it touches the case mouth. Really the press isn't all that necessary, most of the time I can seat wadcutters by pressing them into the case with my thumb. The main thing is they need to not have much tension, since they are so soft and the case will resize the boolit if it's very tight. Then they don't shoot very well.

I have a Redding taper crimp die. I've never used any other brand ones, the RCBS cost so much more I just stick to the Redding ones.

KYCaster
07-09-2012, 10:46 PM
Just get some wadcutter brass......like this........

45881

Winchester and Remington identify wadcutter brass with two cannalures near the middle of the case. Federal uses one cannalure that coincides with the base of a 148 gr. wadcutter.

Advice about sizing die and expander dimensions is still relevant, it's just much simpler when you start with the right brass.

Jerry

randyrat
07-09-2012, 11:48 PM
Deltaenterprizes (spelling of his name?) Made me a couple expander buttons. Don't recall the price, but he did a nice job on them. One was a .429 for the 44 mag.

The factory button was a .426. It squeezed the lead boolit way too much.

GabbyM
07-10-2012, 10:58 AM
FYI;
I’ve some new Star brass that is strong stuff. When I tried the WC using the short Dillon powder through expander a wadcutter cast from 2:6 alloy seated so hard it caused issues. Can’t remove the bullet form the case with an impact puller. I wrote to Dillon about this asking about a longer expander. There reply was a condescending “you aren’t expanding the case mouth enough”. Well I have a few other SWC and RNFP heavy bullets that also seat deeper than a Dillon expander reaches. So I size all my lubed brass in a single stage press then tumble clean it. Then use the Lyman M die in station one of my Dillon 550B.
There are options on how to adjust your dies. With the WC bullets the M die needs to go all the way in to fit the bullet. If I were loading heavy RNFP for a lever action with tube magazine. I’d set the M die to expand the case to desired seating depth leaving a step inside that would prevent the bullet from being pushed farther into the case. Then use the Dillon powder through to put on a neck flare.

I’ve found the extra sizing step not that big a deal as I prefer to lube my cases anyway. Then they need cleaned up. With 9mm I have the same issue with any bullet other than the 124gr RNFP which seats shallow. So I use the same process with 9mm. Pretty sure the 38 Special Dillon expander would work with the 122 gr TCFP sized at .357” but have not tried it.

To load dead soft bullet I’d think you’d need an expander plug very close to the diameter of your sized bullet. Letting the amount of brass spring back provide bullet grip. Maybe even a plug .0005” to .0010” over bullet diameter. Aiming for a .358" case I.D. for a .358" bullet. That would be a press fit and probably near all the tension you'd get with soft lead as you aren't going to expand a 38 Special case much with soft lead. Nobade's solution of not sizing the cases at all sounds like a good idea to me.

Char-Gar
07-10-2012, 11:55 AM
I don't think the notion of reaming 38 Special cases is the best idea. Far easier to hunt up some factory wadcutter brass. This brass has the start of the taper to the head farther down the case to allow the wadcutters to be fully seated without the issue you described. These cases have never been available as a seperate component and only come with factory match (WC) ammo.

At one time RCBS did offer an expanding plug that was longer and thicker (.3585) for use with the HBWC but it is no longer available even on special order. The standard Lyman M-Die expander for the 38 Special die is plenty long for solid base wadcutters. However the current Lyman M-Die expands cases to .355-356 for use with jacketed bullets, which is too tight (IMHO) for soft case or swaged bullets. "Back in the day", before jacketed bulleets Lyman made expanders .358 for 38 Special and .357 for 357 Magnum.

There is much to be said for sizing case not more than necessary to feed easy into the cylinder of a sixgun. The round are centered in the charge holes and does lay at the bottom, where the fired bullet can strike the cylinder forcing cone at an angle.

It would seem that handloaders today have forgotton most of the lesson learned by their fathers and grandfather and must relearn them all over again. Everything was not better "back in the day", but many things were. Reloading did not begin with Dillon and Lee.

Modern carbide dies, oversize 38 Special cases by a large amount. I use an older 50's RCBS steel die. It sizes the body just a smidge and top of the case about .200" down. This gives the case a bottle necked look, but it is expanded to the size you want to provide proper tension for you bullets. The old Lyman/Ideal 310 dies for the tong tool and Tru-Line Jr. press did the same thing.

The use of carbide sizing dies is not the cure all folks think they are. I tend to avoid them because of the case oversizing. I also don't use a progressive press and am not concerned about producting the largest amount of ammo in the shortest amount of time.

There is much to be said for hunting up older 38 Special dies for less case sizing and larger case expanding. Folks don't want these, so sell for little money on Ebay. The older 50's 45 Colt dies are also far better.

JoeTheMechanic
07-11-2012, 01:00 AM
someone mentioned looking for older dies, i see some RCBS dies on ebay that say ".38 spl SWC", im thinking those might work with my DEWC crimped in the groove, or if nothing else would work well with the FBI loads i want to hoard.
right now im planning to get these SWC dies, and take the expander plug from my lee .38 expander and a couple of wadcutters to the machinist when i go to pick up some parts later this week, and see if he would mind making a plug that will create the .3585 pocket the length of the wadcutter. still going to hunt for a set of WC dies though. if i have learned anything reloading, its that you can have too many options to try.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCBS-3-die-set-for-38-spec-swc-item-18306-group-B-/280915998164?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4167e5f5d4.

and to those who said to get WC brass, thanks, but im not spending $35 on 50 pieces of brass. i have some, its better than PMC, but i just cant find a difference from regular brass of the same HS. they weigh the same as their JHP counterparts. the federal and winchester brass dont bulge enough to notice without measuring, and measure about the same whether or not there are cannalures. the problem i am having is a combination of undersizing (too much/small) and under expanding the neck. once thats fixed, and i police out the headstamps that is still offensive, i will be sitting pretty i think.

GabbyM
07-11-2012, 03:55 AM
Am pretty sure you could pick up a piece of fired brass and drop one of your wad cutters into it. After that isn’t about how much you size it.

JoeTheMechanic
07-11-2012, 06:41 AM
Am pretty sure you could pick up a piece of fired brass and drop one of your wad cutters into it. After that isn’t about how much you size it.

not quite, i checked. hoping now that i stopped sizing them they will fire-form better to the chambers and give me a little extra room. the vintage RCBS SWC dies are on the way, along with a universal decapping die and a few other things. still looking for some WC dies but the only ones i found where sold about 4 days ago :( hoping that the old school has alot to offer me on this one.

StrawHat
07-11-2012, 06:52 AM
I well remember using casings with cannelures when I shot PPC. One thing not mentioned is taht as you shoot the reloads, the cannelure tends to iron out and lengthen the case. Not the same amount each shot so you end up with csaes of various lengths. If you are going through the trouble of reaming or finding the correct sizers, do not add another problem into the mix.

I used older Lyman dies to load my DEWC and HBWC ammo on a Dillon 450. I wonder how much my scores would have improved if I'd have taken the time to get a proper expanding plug and die set ?!?

Char-Gar
07-11-2012, 07:28 AM
I would no pay $35.00 for 50 pieces of brass either, but I did buy 5,000 1X fired wadcutter cases fpr $150.00 about 5 years ago. "Seek and you shall find".