New Rifle, What Cartridge?

[DonMountain]

My grandson is looking to purchase a new rifle for deer hunting, and wants me to help him with cast boolit loads for it. Part of his hunting is in the woods with 50 yard shots, and part out over open fields on our farm maybe 200+ yards. He wants a modern cartridge that he could purchase at WalMart with j bullits if need be. So, what might the ideal cartridge be? Of course I have already suggested some of the old ones like a 45-70, and he wants to stay away from destroying a classic military by mounting a scope on it. :cbpour:

[obssd1958]

30-06 ......... It just doesn't get any better!!




;)

[Heavy lead]

30-06 ......... It just doesn't get any better!!




;)

Yup, and just think as modern as it is, over a hundred years old.

[singleshot]

30-06 ......... It just doesn't get any better!!




;)

Yep. Unless you step up to the 35 Rem :-) Can buy it at Wally's (usually) and shoots cast better than the ought-six. Only limitation is it's only currently available in a Marlin lever-gun (like that's a limitation! Sheesh.)

[GP100man]

+1 for the ole O6 ya can shoot lead pills from bunny poot loads to bear stoppers all from the same trigger.

Brass is everywhere & will work decently with a wide variaty of powders, & molds !!

Weights of pills from 100gr to 220gr .

Just to many pros not to consider the O6

[Haggway]

30-06, or 308 win.

[tonyjones]

The .30-06 is one half of the perfect two gun battery. With a .30-06 and a .375 H&H a hunter is more than adequately armed for hunting anything anywhere on this earth.

Tony

[waksupi]

Going up to a .35 is the best choice, as you can hunt anything on this continent with it.

As far as .30 bores go, I see there are some who are still stuck in the jacketed bullet world. This is cast boolits, forget all of that jacketed bullet dogma.

For cast boolits, a .30-06 is overbore. The .308 is a much more efficient launch platform for our use. It is actually the base cartridge for our most useful, and interesting chamberings for cast boolits.

From the same brass, you can make .243, .308., and the Holy Grail of cast boolits, the .358 Winchester. They all work well with cast, because of the case capacity.

If you look at other .30 based chamberings, like the .30-06, and the .35 Whelen, you will see that for cast loads, both are loaded to the same velocity range as the .308 based cases, although with more empty case space. Why not start with the .308 in the first place, where you can work at full case capacity, the most efficient loading?

[DonMountain]

The .30-06 is one half of the perfect two gun battery. With a .30-06 and a .375 H&H a hunter is more than adequately armed for hunting anything anywhere on this earth.

Tony

So, if he buys a .375 H&H then he is good for anything right off the bat. I assume they sell ammo for it in WalMart for this caliber? Then maybe someday when he needs a much smaller gun he can buy one of those 30-06's I guess. I have a 30-06 but I have never fired it. Its real old and my grandfather bought it brand new right after the war. It says REM 03-A3 on top of it. And still looks brand new still in all its military glory. But he told me before he died that it wasn't safe to shoot those old black powder rifles like that any more. So I just keep it around for the family history. :bigsmyl2:

[geargnasher]

Going up to a .35 is the best choice, as you can hunt anything on this continent with it.

As far as .30 bores go, I see there are some who are still stuck in the jacketed bullet world. This is cast boolits, forget all of that jacketed bullet dogma.

For cast boolits, a .30-06 is overbore. The .308 is a much more efficient launch platform for our use. It is actually the base cartridge for our most useful, and interesting chamberings for cast boolits.

From the same brass, you can make .243, .308., and the Holy Grail of cast boolits, the .358 Winchester. They all work well with cast, because of the case capacity.

If you look at other .30 based chamberings, like the .30-06, and the .35 Whelen, you will see that for cast loads, both are loaded to the same velocity range as the .308 based cases, although with more empty case space. Why not start with the .308 in the first place, where you can work at full case capacity, the most efficient loading?

Because some of us work at full case capacity with the .30-06 :grin:

Gear

[KYCaster]

Going up to a .35 is the best choice, as you can hunt anything on this continent with it.

As far as .30 bores go, I see there are some who are still stuck in the jacketed bullet world. This is cast boolits, forget all of that jacketed bullet dogma.

For cast boolits, a .30-06 is overbore. The .308 is a much more efficient launch platform for our use. It is actually the base cartridge for our most useful, and interesting chamberings for cast boolits.

From the same brass, you can make .243, .308., and the Holy Grail of cast boolits, the .358 Winchester. They all work well with cast, because of the case capacity.

If you look at other .30 based chamberings, like the .30-06, and the .35 Whelen, you will see that for cast loads, both are loaded to the same velocity range as the .308 based cases, although with more empty case space. Why not start with the .308 in the first place, where you can work at full case capacity, the most efficient loading?



And one more thing!!!!

All the 30-06 and 308 rifles you find in the local shops will be 1-10 or 1-9 twist which will limit your velocity with cast boolits to "reduced" loads........no such limit with the 35Rem. It's one of those cartridges that work equally well with cast or condoms......same with 30-30.

Jerry

[waksupi]

Because some of us work at full case capacity with the .30-06 :grin:

Gear

With a .308, you can match any usable cast boolit hunting accuracy and velocity you can achieve with a .30-06. Please report back if you find anything different. We know that too much velocity for hunting with cast is not a good thing. I personally stopped at around 2450 fps with a .308, as there was no need to go faster for my needs. I stay with around 2100 fps in the .35 Win, for a point blank range of 225 yards. That covers all I will ever ask, or need.

[MikeS]

... But he told me before he died that it wasn't safe to shoot those old black powder rifles like that any more. So I just keep it around for the family history. :bigsmyl2:

I sure hope that statement was a joke. I believe the 03-A3 is perfectly safe to shoot, unless it's one of the really early ones that had the too hard receivers.

[Will_Power]

Going up to a .35 is the best choice, as you can hunt anything on this continent with it... and the Holy Grail of cast boolits, the .358 Winchester...

Once I get my cash flow sorted out, that's exactly my plan, for the half penny it's worth.

Pistol sized molds for plinkers and rabbits, 200/225gr for the bigger stuff, and - if there's a mold available - a 310gr Woodleigh-esque for bear and cougar insurance when camping out in the middle of no where.

[just.don]

Hopefully I will be picking up my .308 today.
Been waiting such a long time.

[Bret4207]

7x57.

[singleshot]

If somebody is absolutely married to a 30 cal for cast boolits, then I'd suggest a 30-30. That way you've got a rim to more appropriately deal with reduced loads. That's the last 2 cents I got :-)

[Danderdude]

I'm gonna break with the crowd and say .308 Win.

I personally like ammo commonality. With .308 you can get a $300 scoped bolt action, or a new-production Kalashnikov for $550, or an AR-10 for $1000, or for a little more, an FN FNAR, which is a semi-auto rifle with guaranteed 1 MOA out of the box. You also have the option of a Browning BLR if you like lever guns.

That said, I don't currently own a .308. At one time I had a H&K G3 and two FAL's, but sold them off when I fell on hard times and haven't been back.

For very good precision on a budget, do not overlook the surplus Swiss K-31 rifles and their surplus 7.5x55 GP11 ammo, which was made to standards we consider match-grade today. It uses the same .308 dia bullets (.309" boolits) and hunting ammo is available online, made by Prvi Partizan, who also supplies boxer-primed brass. With K-31's, 1 MOA is more often the rule than the exception.

[FergusonTO35]

I would go for a 7mm-08 or 7X57 myself.

[DonMountain]

Ok, it seems like a lot of people are suggesting a .308 and I know its real easy to get factory cartridges for them at WalMart. As for the other suggestions, some of them are hard to find loaded cartridges for. I like the idea of the .358 in a bolt gun. I have a .356 Win in a lever gun thats a real shooter. In fact I am sitting under the huge deer head my wife shot with hers a couple of years ago. And the 356 takes the same dies as the 358 except the 356 is a rimmed version of the 358 for the Winchester Model 94 guns. I told my grandson to get a strong bolt gun for added safety. But does anybody make a reasonably cheap 358 bolt gun drilled for a scope? The 308 bolts guns are easy to get. :-P

[quilbilly]

30-30 works for me. At an MV of 1800 with cb's, 200 yards is still in range with young eyes.

[sundog]

I think I would have to seriously consider a nice K98 setup as a scout rifle, or maybe a Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle. Either would fit your grandson's needs.

[Larry Gibson]

The Walmart option is weeding out many of the cartridges suggested. I'd opt for a .308W bolt action with a 12" twist barrel. That will perform very well with cast and with jacketed it will do everything in the 50 - 200+ yard range as any other cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[bowfin]

My opinion is but any of the top 75 deer cartridges into a sack, shake them up, and pull one out and that one is as good as any. In other words, it doesn't matter, if j-word boolits are used.

However, if the young man wants to buy his ammunition at Wal-Mart, then start with the list of ammunition they carry, then pick whatever tickles his fancy.

[felix]

During hunting season, starting now, WalMart emphasis is towards displaying 30-06, 30-30, 300 WinMag, 243, 270, and this year 308 bolt guns and ammo are going to be boosted specifically. Ask for what's in stock when not seen on public display. The 308 rifles, being the various models of Remington and Savage, will be in the "back". If not, they can be ordered and received quickly from other stores. ... felix

[WHITETAIL]

+1 on the 308.:cbpour:

[Pat I.]

+2 on the .308

[atr]

+3 on the .308.....got rid of my 30-06 because the .308 can do pretty much the same thing and not burn as much powder doing it !

[white eagle]

if he is looking into cast he is on the road to be a handloader
forget wal-mart all jap **** anyway
would go for a 35 cal for cast 30's are ok but more options in the 35 cal
35 whelen is hard to beat as is the 358 win

[mpbarry1]

Get one of each! And add a 8mm to the mix. :kidding:

Actually I really like the 06 and 7mm-08. There is no gurantee he will get the casting bug. Both of these will serve a lifetime for deer and elk. And are much more flexible w jwords.

[bowfin]

It took 30 posts to get to the mpbarry's obvious answer!

Although I don't understand the "yanking your chain" part...

[Wolfer]

While I'm a big fan of the 06 I find that with my alloy all my guns have a top speed of around 1800 fps. So there's no difference if I'm shooting my 30-30, 30-06, 8mm, or 7mm the boolits all weigh around 180 and travel at the same speed.
If I was buying a new gun with cast in mind I'd follow LG's advice and make sure my 308 had a 12" twist.

[Jack Stanley]

I had .308 Winchester rifles long before I ever ran into an aught six . I did correct that problem and now the aught six uses my lead loads . I'm still burning through a pile of surplus in the three oh eight and will get back to cast for it some day .

Jack

[10x]

The .308 winchester / 30/06 boys have it nailed. You can buy ammo in just about any hardware store or gunshop in the world for those two calibers - if you need to buy factory ammo.
With cast bullets both become the equivalent of the 30-30 winchester or 300 savage (if you can get the lube , alloy, and bullet diameter right).
Cast bullets make the 30-30, 300 savage, 308, 303, and 30/06 equal....

As for 35 Remington - the local Canadian Ammo retailers don't stock it. A wonderful caliber for hunting with cast bullets but factory ammo isn't every where.

In Canada the .303 british is a very good choice as the rifles one finds (All 60 years old or older) in good condition usually shoot factory and cast very well ( if you do your part and match the cast bullet to the bore.)

[FergusonTO35]

Unless you luck into a used one for less than $500.00, the cheapest way to get a .358 would be to get a used .308 Savage rifle and get a rebarrel kit from E.R. Shaw in .358 WCF.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I am going to suggest a TC Encore with a barrel in either 308, 30-30, or 30-06. That way you will have a cast friendly caliber and available factory ammo, and should you decide to go for a cast only round a barrel swap to some 35cal or larger is all that is needed.

[Marlin Junky]

Can you get a CVA Apex at your Wal-Mart? If so you might want to start with a 270 because of lighter recoil coupled with flat trajectory. CVA also has 1:12" '06 and 1:14" 35 Whelen barrels available for a pretty darn good price and these are Bergara barrels. IMO, the Apex is a much better deal than current TC's.

http://www.cva.com/CVA-store.php?shop=Barrels&category=Apex%20Barrels#l

MJ

P.S. Oops, I forgot to mention the BP barrels and the 45-70 barrels too.

[popper]

30-30 with CB or FTX. Why worry about WW ammo if you reload anyway. 308 2nd choice.

[Texantothecore]

Choice #1:

.45-70 Buffalo Classic - 144 grn round ball to 600 grain cruise missles, 48 gauge shotgun. Modern and black powder, it is all good. Light loadings (like a 22lr) to massive "Naval Gun" type loads.

To go with the rifle: Lee Classic Loader, empty cartridges, modern powder, bullets and primers, PAST magnum shoulder pad. The only time I go to Wally World is for 22lr. he gets bragging rights over his friends puny .308s.

Choice #2: Moisin-Nagant
To go with the rifle: Lee Classic Loader, empty cartridges, modern powder, bullets and primers, PAST magnum shoulder pad.

It is very likely that either of those rifles will be with him for the rest of his life as they are delightful.

[7br]

Tell us more about your grandson. How big? How old? How much experience shooting? How much reloading are you going to do for him?

[Moonie]

The 35 Whelen is a great choice, but I'm with the Colonel (Whelen) when he said the 30-06 is never the wrong decision.

I shoot the 245gr Accurate Molds boolit at 1950fps in mine, amazing boolit that one.

[Texantothecore]

Wally World, during the last couple of years of massive ammo runs, has been empty of any rounds at times. Bare shelves, so that parameter may play a different role than he has in mind. I assume he will not be paying his own money for the ammo due to his age? Ammo can be stupidly expensive especially during deer season.

A good place to start is get the list from www.leeprecision.com for the calibers that have Lee Classic Loaders. It would be a wonderful way to teach him how to reload.

Moisin-Nagants were recently going for 235.00 for a good rifle (I checked the barrel, all were good) plus 400 rounds of ammo. A good deal.

[felix]

Wally World, during the last couple of years of massive ammo runs, has been empty of any rounds at times. Bare shelves, so that parameter may play a different role than he has in mind. I assume he will not be paying his own money for the ammo due to his age? Ammo can be stupidly expensive especially during deer season. ... Texan


That's being fixed as we speak here. There are 4000 stores, half of which will get good service, and a select few will get excellent service. ... felix

[HangFireW8]

I would vote for the .308 bolt action only if I had 7.62 NATO throating and a magazine that could hold boolits seated out long and feed them well, from top to bottom.

Until I find such a beast, I'll recommend the 30-06.

HF

[DonMountain]

Tell us more about your grandson. How big? How old? How much experience shooting? How much reloading are you going to do for him?

He is our grandson who lives with us, 19 years old and entering his Senior year of high school as a "special student". About 6 feet tall and 200 pounds. He has been shooting for 4 or 5 years, and last year we bought him his first deer gun, a Remington combination 870 with a slug barrel and a shotgun barrel to cover everything. We lived in Iowa, a slug gun state. But we moved back to our farm in Missouri and use a rifle for deer hunting here, and he wants a longer range deer rifle with a scope. He has a hard time aiming with iron sights so is not real successful using one of my old mill surps with iron sights. Last year I set him up with a .303 British that I can shoot into 3" groups offhand all day and less than 2" off a bench. He has trouble seeing through the iron peepsights and has a hard time keeping them inside 16". With his slug gun its much worse. But I think a lighter kicking cast lead boolit in a .308 on a modern bolt action gun with a good recoil pad and a scope as suggested might be the trick for him. And I reload everything he shoots. :castmine:

[H.Callahan]

The .308 winchester / 30/06 boys have it nailed
Yup! I am partial to the .30-06, but either is fine.

Another consideration is the guns themselves. Virtually every manufacturer of centerfire rifles put out a .30-06 and/or (usually "and") a .308. This means that you have a HUGE selection of guns to choose from. You can get the exact right balance of cost/quality/esthetics that suits what you want and need. Plus every gunshop that carries anything will have one or both of them in a number of models IN STOCK.

[BAGTIC]

I am fond of the 7mm's myself but I would say go with the .308. I have all of the calibers mentioned but ammo for the 30's is easier to find, available in more different laodings and generally cheaper. The deer won't be able to tell the difference but your wallet will.

[runfiverun]

check and see if he isn't severely cross eye dominant.
that will really affect a persons ability to shoot a rifle well.
my "special ed" son won't shoot a scoped rifle because he is so left eye dominant that even an eye patch doesn't work well.
the patch does help him with open sights however.
ruger makes a 358 in their hawkeye rifle, mine took to the saeco 248 mold right off. [in fact it was boring to take the gun put a scope on it and the first thing i tried in it worked]
it's hard to argue with 250 grs of lead at jaxketed velocity's/accuracy though.

[Pat I.]

If I might interject something here to the OP. It's not my business but I saw you were asking about a scope mount for one of your milsurps in the military rifle section. It's been a while but I remember being 19 years old. If at all possible you should really consider getting the kid his own rifle. You can pick up a Savage Axis or Ruger American in 308 for not a whole bundle of money and the kick the kid will get out of opening the box on his very own brand new rifle will be worth the extra dough. But like I said it ain't my business. The Ruger looks pretty nice for the money and the trigger's probably a lot better from the factory and of the two is a lot prettier. The Savage is dirt cheap and looks like a Savage but with a little trigger work would probably shoot great.

[luvtn]

Someone mentioned that the .270 had less recoil. Huh? it is a necked down 30/06 which means more pressure hence more recoil. IMHO
lt

[Moonie]

Someone mentioned that the .270 had less recoil. Huh? it is a necked down 30/06 which means more pressure hence more recoil. IMHO
lt

Recoil is not very related to pressure, it is more related to velocity and bullet/boolit weight.

I can load up a Unique load with 40,000psi for my 30-06 and a 40,000psi load of H4895, I will guarantee you the H4895 load will have MUCH more recoil than the Unique load.

Standard weight bullets/boolets in 270 are much lighter than the standard weight 30 caliber bullets/boolets.

[DonMountain]

If I might interject something here to the OP. It's not my business but I saw you were asking about a scope mount for one of your milsurps in the military rifle section. It's been a while but I remember being 19 years old. If at all possible you should really consider getting the kid his own rifle. You can pick up a Savage Axis or Ruger American in 308 for not a whole bundle of money and the kick the kid will get out of opening the box on his very own brand new rifle will be worth the extra dough. But like I said it ain't my business. The Ruger looks pretty nice for the money and the trigger's probably a lot better from the factory and of the two is a lot prettier. The Savage is dirt cheap and looks like a Savage but with a little trigger work would probably shoot great.

After analizing the costs of trying to mount a scope on one of my old Milsurp rifles for the child to use for deer hunting I thought that it might be more productive to just buy him something new in a modern caliber that he could buy common ammo for when I can't reload for him anymore. Hence the two kind of differing questions. We bought a scope for his 22 Long Rifle and he is doing much better hitting things with that with its low recoil. So he handles the scoped rifle well. So now we are looking for a scoped modern bolt gun in 308 Win I think. I couldn't find any Ruger rifles in .358 Win listed on Ruger's web site. Since I already have dies to load the .358 which I use to load my wife's .356 Win lever rifle.

[1Shirt]

Ya, after reading all of the threads, would have to agree with the 308--------but only because of the lack of availability of commercial 358s'. Win made a big mistake in marketing the ctg, as a "Brush Gun", and it didn't sell well and was dropped. Bad a$$ mistake in my never to be humble opinion. The 358 is quite probably one of the finest cast blt ctg's ever designed.
1Shirt!

[mpmarty]

+1 on 358 Win. Shooting buddy has a BLR in that caliber and it is a shooting king. We load about every weight bullet/boolit imaginable in it and it performs like magic. If I was in the market for another rifle I'd buy a 308 or 243 in an inexpensive rifle and rebarrel it to 358 in a heartbeat.