Ringing a chamber?

[tomme boy]

What is it, what causes it? I have seen it mentioned a few times and no one has really said what it is.

[geargnasher]

Tamping a wad down against powder and leaving air space between the wad and boolit base is a really good way to ring a chamber.

Gear

[emrah]

Ok, but I'm with the OP: WHAT is it?

Emrah

[PuppetZ]

A slight depression "stamped" in the chamber. It is caused by a small charge being plugged in place by a tight wad, usually a powdered filler that harden in the case and plug it tight (the various cream of **** are notorious for that. If they are exposed to moisture, they can clump and clog a bottleneck case shut). It cause a very severe overpressure situation but just on the small length of the case that contain the powder, stretching the metal of the chamber around the case in that location. Since the case is round, it bear the shape of a ring. To prevent situations where a ringing of the chamber could occur, do not use a powdered filler like cream of wheat. Never compress a fiber filler on your charge, leave it fluffed.

Hope that help.

Frank

[runfiverun]

think of it like a piston driving air forward. [except at very high velocity]
and the air has no where to go.
this forces the steel outwards in a circle where the air is contained.
at times it can lock a fired case into the chamber.

don't confuse ths with a belly bulge from a wobbly cut chamber.

[tomme boy]

Can it happen without any filler. Reason is, I had a Yugo mauser about 15 years ago that I put a ring in the chamber. I was using Blue Dot powder and 175 gr j-words. It happened with 15 gr of powder. It was not bad enough to hold a case, but you could see it in the chamber. It happened about 1/8'' forward of the belly you can get on an over sized chamber.

[square butte]

Can someone put up a photo of a cartidge case that was fired in a ringed chamber?

[tomme boy]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=81742

Here you go.

[square butte]

Thank you very much Sir. Quite instructive.

[Larry Gibson]

From that thread one can readily see the confusion between a "wad" and a filler". The confusion continues today as too many use the terms interchangeably with out differentiating between the two.

A wad can (that certainly doesn't mean always) cause a ringed chamber.

A dacron wad can cause a ringed chamber.

A dacron filler when used correctly does not cause ringed chambers.

A dacron filler with too fast a burning powder in conjunction with other iinappropriate componant combinations can also cause a ringed chamber.

Point is some "fillers" are quite benificial (I am partial to dacron) and pose no risk of ringing chambers if used with the correct powders and combinations.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Rings are caused by excessive and concentrated pressure resulting from isolated airspace between the powder charge and the boolit base. Card wads tamped down over the powder leaving space between the card and the boolit are the worst offenders, but Dacron or other fiber fillers will do it as well. The solid or granular fillers aren't really known for actual ringing because they take up all the space between boolit and powder, although they can create their own set of dangerous overpressure conditions in bottlenecked cases if improperly used.

What happens to cause the rings is the powder lights behind the wad and builds pressure very quickly, moving the wad forward very rapidly and with great pressure. Right as the powder is getting going really well and expanding volume, the moving pressure front slams into the fixed obstacle of the boolit base, having had a pretty good head start from the empty space behind the boolit. When this pressure front slams into the boolit base, the presure is deflected outward radially in the area right behind the boolit. Keep in mind the powder kernels in the burning pressure front are still expanding and building pressure as this happens and the deflection off of the base of the boolit concentrates the pressure into a radial ring, which often is enough to stretch the brass and chamber permanently before the pressure equalizes within the case and applies enough pressure to unseat the boolit and get it started on it's way.

If Dacron is used, it should be "fluffed" up between the boolit base and the powder charge at a density that only slightly compresses it against it's natural loft. This will locate the powder positively in the back of the case, keep it from migrating, but will not form a solid pressure piston ahead of the powder like a wad will, or even Dacron if you pack it tightly against the powder while leaving an airspace behind the boolit.

Gear

[emrah]

So is it a bulged chamber then? I looked at the pic from the link provided earlier but it really just shows some striations. Is the chamber wrecked after that?

Emrah

[runfiverun]

it can be.
sometimes you can still shoot it,and remove the case after firing.
other times you cannot remove the brass from the chamber.

[calaloo]

Breech seated bullets are pushed into the bore of the rifle. The base of the bullet is some distance ahead of the case mouth. The case is often loaded with powder and then a wad to prevent powder from spilling into the action during loading. Now you have a definate space between the bullet and the wad. It has been proven that a chamber ring will not occur if the wad is not against the powder. A distance of two tenths of a inch will allow the powder face to "slump" and prevent ringing.

[Gtek]

Ringing usually is from the old days with softer barrels. 32-40 and 32 Miller in this house get a pea of Kapok, breeched, no hint of ringing. Many of the straight wall boys leave between .100"-.200" air gap under .032" or .060" veggie cookie, no ringing. Some use a 1/4" floral foam in case neck just to hold powder and they say protect boolit base. It is all down to powder used and specific load configuration. Everyone of them needs something a little different. Research your load out before stuffing. Gtek

[papertrl]

... A dacron filler with too fast a burning powder in conjunction with other iinappropriate componant combinations can also cause a ringed chamber.
Larry Gibson

Larry & Crew,

I'm considering trying Dacron/Polyfill batting for a filler and have been reviewing old threads on the subject. Would this be one of those inappropriate combinations? 303 British, 215 gr RNGC, 21.0 gr IMR 4198. Might 4198 be too fast for the weight of the boolit to be a good (safe??) candidate for filler?

While I'm asking filler questions, do I understand this correctly: You don't tease your 3/4 gr polyfill batting to be any fluffier? You just work it into the case, leaving it high enough in the neck for the boolit to lightly compress it? Hope this thread isn't too old to be noticed. I'll repost in a new thread if I don't get any nibbles. Thanks for any responses.

Papertrl

[Lumpy grits]

Don't use any filler.
LG

[Doughty]

I would suggest reading up on a guy named Paul Vielle. Or much easier to do, read Chapter 17 B of Charles Dell's book on the Modern Schuetzen Rifle, 2nd Edition for a more insightful look at what really causes chamber ringing. The tales of shooter's wives persist.

[longbow]

You will find filler to be a very controversial subject.

I have used and like Cream 'O Wheat for use in my .303's. I started using filler originally because we have very little in the way of reloading supplies locally and it was even worse a few years ago. I used to shop in Colville Washington for reloading supplies before Homeland Security put a stop to cross border shopping for gun parts and reloading supplies.

Anyway, my goal was to be able to use powders I had on hand that were not necessarily the best for cast boolits. With many powders, downloading beyond a certain loading density can cause problems. Using a granular filler like COW provides a benefit or two in that not only is loading density always 100% but with powders taking up 1/2 or less case volume it ensures you can't double charge as well.

COW also helps protect the base of a plain base boolit too and I shoot mostly PB boolits.

I got my first lessons and answers regarding fillers here:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

and from contacting David Southall. He was very helpful.

Surplus Rifle also had a good article on using PSB filler for .308. That site is now down but I copied the article so could e-mail it if you would like to read it.

I have shot thousands of rounds now using COW filler with no problems at all though I will stress that I worked up loads using the filler. You cannot just go putting filler into any load. Start with a light charge then increase powder while decreasing filler quantity.

Since you are asking about Dacron filler you may not be interested in granular fillers or PSB but it is another option that can provide good results when used properly.

I have not used Dacron so far so cannot comment though I believe Larry and his results so may give it a go at some point.

Longbow

[hiram]

Seems to happen to straight wall cases.

If I can find my posting with picks, I'll list it.

[mrbill2]

I have heard in the past that if the powder you choose fills at least 50% of the case volume there is no reason to use a filler. That being said, with all the different powders that are available. Why use fillers at all?

[hiram]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?81742-ringed-chamber&highlight=ring+chamber

The chamber ring is black. The copper is a bore scope. If I remember correctly, the case shows the ring when pushed into the chamber. This was on a Marlin lever action rifle in 444. The rifle was returned to Marlin and the replaced, no charge.

[WALLNUTT]

I put a ring in a chamber several years ago. SSK custom Contender barrel chambered 30 30 Ackly Improved. Fireforming 30 30 cases with 10gr of Herco behind a RCBS 180FN firing rather quick just to blow out the shoulder. Ring was in the neck at the base of the bullet. NO FILLER. Very difficult to extract the last fired case although I did feel hard extraction on earlier rounds but ignored it. Early days of shooting/casting/reloading. The ring was polished out to the point of being able to extract cases by SSK and the barrel for a couple of years in IHMSA. So I believe it can happen without using a filler and have not used fast burning pistol/shotgun powders since. Call me overcautious.

[swheeler]

Yes you can use dacron with your 4198 load in the 303, probably will improve your accuracy and definately will improve ignition. Make sure it isn't packed down against the powder, it should fill the space between powder and base of the bullet completely with slight compression when seating the bullet.

The first I ever heard of chamber ringing involved H110 used in 308 win reduced loads, no filler used and several chambers ringed.

[papertrl]

I have heard in the past that if the powder you choose fills at least 50% of the case volume there is no reason to use a filler. That being said, with all the different powders that are available. Why use fillers at all?

Prior to the last six years I might have agreed with that. The key word here is available. We seem to have a bit of a supply problem. On a trip back home to MT this past summer I though I'd surely find a better variety of powder than I'm finding in southern NV. Did I get educated! (My original thinking: surely in one of the most pro-gun states in the country I'd find a better assortment of powder and primers than I've been seeing....) I felt lucky to find a couple jugs of 4198. That should make Buckshot smile. I'm pretty sure that's one of his favorites, and I'm learning to like it. I can hope this year's trip will be more productive. :-|

[papertrl]

You will find filler to be a very controversial subject.

Anyway, my goal was to be able to use powders I had on hand that were not necessarily the best for cast boolits....
http://www.303british.com/id37.html ...
I have a similar goal. Thanks for the link. I've read Southall's pages and don't doubt that he's had really good success with COW and PSB. Then I read Larry's posts and start thinking that dacron would be the way.


Surplus Rifle also had a good article on using PSB filler for .308. That site is now down but I copied the article so could e-mail it if you would like to read it. I appreciate the offer, but before you do, is this the article you have in mind:
http://www.gun-shots.net/wp-content/uploads/castfiller.pdf ? Looks like these guys stashed a copy, too.

Thanks for your thoughts. I sympathize with your supply problem up there. I probably shouldn't whine too loudly about my own supply problem. Things could always be worse, I suppose.

[Eddie2002]

Does bullet weight affect chamber ringing? If ringing is caused by a pressure spike between the wad and bullet till the projectile starts moving down the barrel wouldn't a heavier bullet which has more inertia cause a increase in the spike? The reason I'm asking is because I've been shooting a 100 grain boolit over 5-6 grains of bullseye or Greendot using a small pinch of dacron or cotton to hold the powder charge against the primer. I've shot over 500 of this type of round in a 7.7 Jap with no ringing or problems and have used the same load as a 50 yd plinker for a 30-06 with good results. Is my powder charge too light to cause a serious pressure spike or does my bullet weight also help reduce the chance of ringing the chamber.
A lot of great information has been presented so far about the cause of chamber ringing, love this site, except for one variable which is bullet weight. Maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges with a 100 grain boolit plinker light load and much heavier boolits using slower powders. Thanks

[Char-Gar]

Another Zombie thread.

[Geezer in NH]

Tamping a wad down against powder and leaving air space between the wad and boolit base is a really good way to ring a chamber.

GearYep why no spacers should be used

[Dale53]

Charlie Dell was a personal friend of mine. We have seriously discussed this problem. Charlie made brass barrels (faster yield from the pressure) and was able to ring a barrel at will. The problem, as originally discovered by the Frenchman Vielle, is the pressure wave created. Charlie could even ring barrels without a wad of any kind.

The ringing force is caused by a pressure wave created when the powder is resting against the base of the case. This can be done while holding the barrel vertically when firing. It doesn't require a wad. However, the wad, as typically used, when pressed against the powder, with a air column between the powder and bullet base, causes the pressure wave that radially presses against the barrel at the base of the bullet. This effect is accumalitive. The use of dacron fluff materially increases this force.

Charlie was a SERIOUS Schuetzen shooter. It is quite common to use breech seated bullets with small powder charges. Charlie discovered that if the wad was seated just a few thousandths off the powder to allow it to "slump" the ringing force does not occur. I dropped the powder and followed Charlie's instructions to the letter with reference to seating the wads. I used Floral foam (I just pushed the mouth of the case through a sheet of the floral foam and then seated it to a pre-determined depth). Nary a problem occurred, BY ACTUAL TESTS.

The older, much softer barrels (as built by the factories at the turn of the century as well as custom makers of the time, like Harry Pope) were much easier to ring. With modern barrels, ringing is much less common.

However, match barrels are not cheap and I, for one, considered using Charlie's loading directions MANDATORY.

You will hear from many, who state that "I have done this, etc. for many years without a problem".

Well, just because you got away with it does not mean it's not a good idea to follow good guide lines.

Charlie Dell was a fine man and did much research to help the new, as well as old timer, shooters.

Dale53

[swheeler]

Another Zombie thread.

Charger that is funny:bigsmyl2: BUT our own Deputy Al ringed a chamber on a Win 94 in 25-35 not that long ago. Maybe he will post some specifics here.

[9.3X62AL]

Charger that is funny:bigsmyl2: BUT our own Deputy Al ringed a chamber on a Win 94 in 25-35 not that long ago. Maybe he will post some specifics here.

Afraid so. The rifle is a flatband example made sometime just before/during/after WWII by the S/N, and was among the absolute last of my rifles I would have wanted this to occur with.

The load used was housed in W-W 25-35 cases, lit with WLR primers, 10.0 grains of 2400, a tuft of dacron that WAS NOT pushed against the powder, and the NEI 114 grain flatnose bullet @ .258" in 92/6/2 alloy with Hornady gas check. A mild roll crimp secured the bullet in place for the ride down the magazine and through the action.

I noticed the ringing when extraction got a little balky; I saw a ringed portion of the casing right above the shoulder/neck junction on the neck of the case. This is also very close to where the bullet's base locates when the cartridge is completed. The sick feeling I got at the time has only lessened a little bit over time. After a several-year period of palavering around and indecision over a resolution, a little over a year ago I had Jesse Ocumpah of Cottage Grove, OR rebore the barrel to 38-55.

I do NOT use any form of filler in any of my reloading activities at this time, and am very likely not to at any future time.

[fouronesix]

Ringing is an odd phenomenon. Too bad about the 25-35. I know the theory that most follow goes something like a ring is caused by a high pressure "ring" of gas sandwiched between something at the rear and an obstruction at the front- namely the bullet base. I have a slightly different take on it. I think it is caused by a radial solid kinetic energy event where a high velocity something hits the obstruction (like a bullet base), one or both objects expand and peen a circle around the zone of the event.

Anyway, ringing events have been around a long time- well before dacron fillers and it can happen even when no filler or wad of any kind is used between powder and bullet. I've looked at a lot of old BP chambers and almost every one of them has at least a small discernible ring where a bullet would normally be seated. I think it is the result of a solid compressed mass of unburned BP kernels hitting the bullet base shortly after ignition. Also seems logical (IMO) this would be especially true if over time the BP settled in the case creating, even the smallest, air space between the powder and bullet.

[9.3X62AL]

One other "variable" in this equation to consider......the 25-35's neck joins with a long, gently-sloping shoulder that could conceivably help "focus" such a destructive pressure wave in some fashion. I should point out that the rifle was still usable, if you were willing to ruin brass in order to fire it. That struck me as being pretty wasteful. I am now out of the caliber entirely, and sold off tooling and components specific to the caliber.

[swheeler]

Al take that 38-55 out and make venison, it will help ease the pain of losing a loved one.;-( Thanks for the post

[JohnH]

Afraid so. The rifle is a flatband example made sometime just before/during/after WWII by the S/N, and was among the absolute last of my rifles I would have wanted this to occur with.

The load used was housed in W-W 25-35 cases, lit with WLR primers, 10.0 grains of 2400, a tuft of dacron that WAS NOT pushed against the powder, and the NEI 114 grain flatnose bullet @ .258" in 92/6/2 alloy with Hornady gas check. A mild roll crimp secured the bullet in place for the ride down the magazine and through the action.

I noticed the ringing when extraction got a little balky; I saw a ringed portion of the casing right above the shoulder/neck junction on the neck of the case. This is also very close to where the bullet's base locates when the cartridge is completed. The sick feeling I got at the time has only lessened a little bit over time. After a several-year period of palavering around and indecision over a resolution, a little over a year ago I had Jesse Ocumpah of Cottage Grove, OR rebore the barrel to 38-55.

I do NOT use any form of filler in any of my reloading activities at this time, and am very likely not to at any future time.

This topic has been discussed several times since I've been around, and I always felt somewhat immune to this problem as I use Red or Green Dot, Unique and Blue Dot for my cast shootin'. I dabbled for a short time with fillers using slower powders, but didn't like or perhaps didn't have the confidence in the method. I also have stayed with 44 Mag and 30-30 primarily, with the thinking that the reduced volume of the cases offered some immunity as well, as my gut feeling about the cause of ringing has always focused on volume. I'm sorry to hear about Al's experience with this, not only because of the damage to his rifle, but because it blows holes (pun not intended) in the ideas I've held about the use of fillers, powder speed and case volume. I guess as in all things you pays your money and takes your chances. I also wonder, over the time I've been a member here, just how many loads using fillers have been fired, just how many have been fired without, and just how many ring events have occurred among us. If it's a million in one chance, how likely is it that any one of us will see it over our lifetime? Somehow, I'm far more concerned with a double charge escaping me (one has already, as have several squibs). My theory is that reloading is like motorcycle riding, there are two kinds of riders/reloaders, those who have experienced a crash and those who will. How honest we are about it is another question...

[papertrl]

I'm the guilty party that resurrected this thread, or as Char-Gar put it, I guess I created a zombie. I've been wavering back and forth on the whole filler issue, and Deputy Al's post is a good reminder of why I can't quite make up my mind. I'm pretty glad to read some new input on this topic, though, so thank-you to everyone who added to this discussion. Merry Christmas.