Temp. of water/for water dropping

[gray wolf]

OK men ,
here's another of my unending questions.
Does the Temperature of the water effect the hardness of the bullet when we water drop ?
and how about the dept of the water the bullets fall through.
Seems like a good question to me, what say you.
I ask cause it seems when we oven harden the temp is important.
Julie in a fit of cleaning disposed of my old toaster oven that I had hidden in the shed.

[swheeler]

I'm sure it does to some degree, but small I would guess. If you raise the boiling point of the water(salt, lye, antifreeze) significantly that would harden better.

[Beagle333]

I'm gonna be watchin this close. I was wondering the same thing yesterday. :popcorn:

[ShooterAZ]

The temperature of the water increases a tad every time you drop a boolit in there anyway. I don't think it will matter.

[44man]

No, nothing at all. Even a few seconds difference in getting the boolit in the water means nothing. Heck, maybe a minute will not hurt.

[btroj]

I don't know. I do know my bucket of water gets much, much warmer as I continue to cast.
Short of using ice water, and keeping up the ice level over time, I am not sure how to keep a consistant temp.

[1Shirt]

I start with a bucket of cold water-----period. After that, there is a slight warming depending on what I am casting. If I am running 22's, seems like the water changes temp little if any in an hours casting. If however I am running a gang mold, and emptying a 20 lb. pot quickly, the water will be a touch on the warm side. Been doing it that way for many years, and it works for me, and don't think I will change.
1Shirt!

[MGySgt]

All I know is that the quicker you cool the boolit the harder it is.

Take for example casting and not WD the boolit. In the winter when the temp is about 30-35 degrees (Casting shed un heated) the boolits cool faster then when I cast in the summer and the temp is in the 80'-90's.

The air cooled boolits cast in the winter are a few BHN #'s harder than when I air cool the boolits in the summer. Does it matter for practice and general shooting? Not in my experience. 44Man will dissagree with me - he gets better accuracy with his WD boolits. It works for him, but not me.

To get the hardest possible boolit - Oven heat treat them with a temp for 1 hour at the point of a few degrees below their slump temp and quinch them in the coldest water you can get.

Is this really neccessary for a normal blasting boolit - I don't think so. If you were going to use say a 45/70 to take a Cape Buff when you want max pentration and only a limited riveting of the boolit - than yes I would take the extra steps and Oven Heat Treat my boolits.

If you are heat treating for a big Grizz or Polar maybe even a moose - than yes I would want the hardest possible boolit I could get for max velocity and penitration.

For the majority of the shooting/hunting we do - Water Droping them is just fine if you need the hardness.

The Elk I took with my 45/90 sure didn't need anything harder than air cooled WW at 1500 FPS that I used.

[Bigslug]

Anybody ever drop their slugs into liquid nitrogen?

Only partially -->:kidding:

[gray wolf]

So I guess it may be OK to say that a bullet that works for normal paper and cans is OK as long as it works for you.
But there is no harm in tailoring your hunting bullets as needed for the game you are after.
Reason I ask is two fold, #1 the Moose here are quite big, and the black bear get to 450 - 500 pounds. The only bullet I have is the 429421 Kieth and it's only 250 grains.

[popper]

HT - get temp @ close to 450F. Cool RAPIDLY, you want to 'freeze' or get the heat out as fast as you can. Iced water will remove heat ~20% faster. AC is about 1.5F/sec, WD or HT ice water is ~40F/sec. You want the entire CB to be hardened, not just the surface - the middle hardens last. < 20% of the hardening occurs after quenching, those little molecules are still running around doing their thing. Don't drop in LOX! or LN2 unless YOU have good protection against the tinsel fairy.

[bobthenailer]

I think in the past someone did a test with room temp and chilled water with bullets dropped from the mould and the hardness BHN was the same with either senairo

[popper]

Surface only test! It also depends on the alloy, more material that WILL HT harden will make BHN higher..

[paul h]

It would be interesting to take two 5 gal buckets, fill one with ice water, the other with however hot the water comes out of your water heater. After getting your mold up to temp, drop a dozen bullets into each bucket, and use a decent size bullet 45 cal 400 gr minimum.

Let em age harden a month, then check surface hardness at the base of each bullet. Then cut every bullet in half and check hardness in the middle of them.

I'd rather spend my time casting and shooting so won't be performing such a test, but would be interested in the results.

[Danderdude]

DO NOT LEAVE ICE FLOATING IN YOUR CATCH BUCKET

When I was brand spankin' new to casting, I figured that if cool water was good, cold was better, right? So I sat down for my first real casting session, making Lee C312-155's and dropping them into a 5gal bucket with about an inch of ice floating on top. This went on for 6 hours. My initial inspection of the boolits were all satisfactory, until I went to dry them...

As I poured the silver onto towels for drying, I found a big surprise in the bottom: about 5 pounds of broken boolits. A full third of the boolits that weren't broken were at least visibly bent. When they are in the soft state, hitting an ice cube is enough to deform them. You can use ice to cool the water, but don't leave it standing or you'll find you wasted an afternoon in one of the least satisfying ways possible.

[btroj]

I only want the surface hardened. I want to be able to shoot a bullet that is lower in Sb at a higher velocity. This gives a bullet that may expand a bit but it will be tough and won't break up on bone.
If through hardness is wanted I can use straight Linotype or monotype. Bad thing isthe bullets will be hard, and brittle. It bone and they make fracture or break up. Water dropped wheel weights or even wheel weights/pure 50/50 will let me who as fast and the bullets won't break up.

Not really any different than steel. Glass hard but brittle isn't often the end goal. Hard and tough is desirable.

[375RUGER]

Don't drop in LOX! or LN2 unless YOU have good protection against the tinsel fairy.

Shouldn't have LOX near an ignition source and flamable materials anyway. But if you ever want to start a campfire fast, pour some LOX on the logs.

But LN2??? and the tinsel fairy???

What was your experience?



You can easily make a -50*F quench with anti-freeze/water or IPA and dry ice. If it's too slushy less dry ice or more liquid.

I just drop in a bucket of cool well water. I usually don't do more than 500 at a time.

[delt167502]

I hunted game on 5 continents,using mostly cast. cal. 35 - 475 I found if you use the proper weight and cal.it will do the job.for long range 300yds plus I always use jacketed . (wind deflection) The hardness ww ,gas checks,are the main thing. And hitting the target in the right place. As to water cooling ,I could never tell much diff.

[paul h]

I only want the surface hardened. I want to be able to shoot a bullet that is lower in Sb at a higher velocity. This gives a bullet that may expand a bit but it will be tough and won't break up on bone.
If through hardness is wanted I can use straight Linotype or monotype. Bad thing isthe bullets will be hard, and brittle. It bone and they make fracture or break up. Water dropped wheel weights or even wheel weights/pure 50/50 will let me who as fast and the bullets won't break up.

Not really any different than steel. Glass hard but brittle isn't often the end goal. Hard and tough is desirable.

I think you'll find that water quenched ww bullets are generally fairly hard throughout and when impacting at rifle velocities, have come apart.

You might want to try air cooled ww bullets for accuracy, water quenching isn't always the best way to go.

[btroj]

My point is that a "softer" alloy can be water dropped to give a harder surface and a softer, ductile core. The surface needs the hardness for handling increased velocity, not the core. The core controls how it behaves on impact more.
I like bullets to think of these bullets as being "case hardened". I know the hardness goes deeper but in a 420 gr 45-70 bullet I bet the center of the bullet cools just enough slower to make a difference. I am speaking of 25/75 wheel weights/pure with a 1/4 pound mag shot per 20 pound pot.

[MikeS]

While not water dropping, I use a small fan blowing on my freshly dropped boolits, and according to Lee's book this too will make them harden more than normal air cooling. Has anyone ever noticed this? I do it simply so I can handle the boolits quicker than if they just air cool on their own, as well as having the fan already blowing if I need to cool down the sprue plate or mould blocks some. I can't tell that my boolits are any harder than before I started using it, which is why I was surpirsed to read that it would make a difference.

[fecmech]

The only bullet I have is the 429421 Kieth and it's only 250 grains.
You might want to check some of BruceB's old posts. IIRC he has mentioned shooting completely through more than one or two moose with 429421!

[popper]

You don't get the tinsel fairy, just a volcano of LN, if you are lucky enough to not break the glass thermos most science teachers use. LN is -330F and 700:1 expansion ratio. Liquid Neon is even more fun, -420F 1500:1. H2O to stream is what, about 200:1? Nice thing about a heat treatable alloy is you can tailor the CB to do what you want.

[popper]

btroj
25/75 wheel weights/pure with a 1/4 pound mag shot per 20 pound pot. That's about what I used to do some fracture testing (very unscientific methods). AC, WD, Oven HT into ice. Results indicated that OHT/ice had greater fracture resistance as well as surface 'hardness'. Technical point, Pb is malleable, not ductile, but terms are generally interchanged. Those CB's went through 3" of cheap 2x4 before splitting out the wood. Nice clean hole up to the split. I call that penetration with NO fracturing. Good for hunting, probably not.

[gray wolf]

I would like to hear more about just how effective the 429421 bullet is.
Not just a once in a while occurrence, but what it can do repeatedly.
I know that is a hard question to answer. But there should be better answers out there other than "this is what/how I do it."
No I am not looking for a bullet that does everything. But the 429421 has been the mainstay bullet for a long time, perhaps it's a good place to start.
However
keep in mind this may be just another one of my don't need to know questions.
On the other hand I need to shoot through Moose, and bear.
OK, I have my Nomex flame suite on, so bring it men. All said with a smile.

[375RUGER]

On the other hand I need to shoot through Moose, and bear.


Well then, GW. Try a WFN or LFN.
Not saying that a Keith won't shoot through moose or bear, but WFN and LFN are probably better choices.

My 14BHN Keith 265 will shoot clean through about 25" of ballistic slury + about 30" of water jugs behind that.

[tonyjones]

According to Veral Smith in Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets the Keith design will out penetrate a WFN while the WFN will create a larger wound channel. Smith makes the point that for most of our needs the Keith design over penetrates while the WFN causes faster/greater hemorrhaging. This is not to say that both effects do not have their place. However, I would not be overly concerned about any supposed lack of penetration with a Keith design bullet, assuming the correct bullet alloy and adequate velocity for the task at hand.

TJ

[gray wolf]

Thank you men,
very helpful answers.

[btroj]

btroj That's about what I used to do some fracture testing (very unscientific methods). AC, WD, Oven HT into ice. Results indicated that OHT/ice had greater fracture resistance as well as surface 'hardness'. Technical point, Pb is malleable, not ductile, but terms are generally interchanged. Those CB's went through 3" of cheap 2x4 before splitting out the wood. Nice clean hole up to the split. I call that penetration with NO fracturing. Good for hunting, probably not.

I don't see how penetration with no fracturing is bad for hut ing. That is exactly what I want!
I am using a large meplat bullet at reasonable velocities, expansion or fracturing isn't needed. Expansion wouldn't be a bad thing but I consider fracturing in a hunting bullet bad.

[popper]

btrog - WFN 30-30, 27g 4895 @ 50 yds. Scope wasn't set for this load and I hit the upper support 2 x 4. 3 holes. Think they piled up punched wood on the nose until the wood couldn't take the volume, then it split. Probably a good hog load. It won't mushroom any. I knew I missed the paper but didn't see what happened till I hung new targets.

[btroj]

A 30-30 wfn at that speed would make a good deer load without expansion. A bit would be nice but I could live with none at all.
Shot a deer a few years back with a 30-30, 32 gr RE15, 311165 RD from NOE. Shot was about 20 yards, bullet went thru chest and lodged in big knuckle joint on off side front leg. I would have preferred it exit. Deer didn't go real far.

In the end, I really prefer my 45-70 for deer. That shot would have anchored the deer right there.

In the end it is about balancing velocity, diameter, and bullet weight along with alloy. I do know a hard alloy HP is bad. Almost lost a deer that way. Bullets should never end up shorter than they are wide.

[afish4570]

OK men ,
here's another of my unending questions.
Does the Temperature of the water effect the hardness of the bullet when we water drop ?
and how about the dept of the water the bullets fall through.
Seems like a good question to me, what say you.
I ask cause it seems when we oven harden the temp is important.
Julie in a fit of cleaning disposed of my old toaster oven that I had hidden in the shed.

When winter casting sessions are done I always put a shovel full of snow in my 5 gal. can of water. As time goes on I add alittle more. Don't know what effect or any it really has. I don't have a lead tester and it may or may not be from a batch of lead from the same smelted batch......Makes me feel like I tried though. Casted a batch two Sat. ago and of course it was tap water, no ice cubes added or anything.afish4570[smilie=f:

[popper]

30-30, 32 gr RE15, 311165 RD - close to a top end load. Same mould I have, but 35 g LeverR.

[RobS]

However
keep in mind this may be just another one of my don't need to know questions.
On the other hand I need to shoot through Moose, and bear.
OK, I have my Nomex flame suite on, so bring it men. All said with a smile.

First I'm not bashing on the Keith design, LFN or WFN designs. I just telling of my experience regarding the designs. With that, the LFN and the Keith's have nearly the same meplat width. As I’m sure you know, the meplat is what does the actual work regarding shockwave and penetration. I've shot the heck out of the Keith style designs (454424 and the BRP 454283/RCBS 45-270-SAA) in the 45 Colt and 454 Casull and in the end they shot well but took more load development to get them there and can be pickier regards to boolit/powder combo's.

I now shoot LFN style designs with a touch wider of a meplat, 75%, which is roughly in between a WFN @ 80-82% and a LFN @ 72-73% of boolit's as cast diameter. These percentages are based off of read info. both in books and on the internet and apply across various different calibers. None the less, I've found that shooting a LFN style design is easier to find accuracy and through a wider variety of load combinations. These reasons along with the smoother nose profile for easier chambering and for longer distance rifle work are why I started to design LFN style molds to drop boolits for my shooting needs.

Additionally, I prefer heavier weights say 300 and 340 grains for my Ruger Only 45 Colt/454 Casull stuff because I tend to have an easier time developing loads with better accuracy but I do shoot a 260g LFN style for a lighter side and work this one for a Ruger 45 Colt Flat Top (the newer revolver built on the 357 frame and has a smaller cylinder; not intended for Ruger Only loads). Many who shoot the 44 mag also prefer the heavier weight cast boolits when looking at accuracy and shooting for penetration on heavy skinned/thick animals.

A good 280-300 grain design in the 44 cal class would work very well on moose or bear and could be loaded down for practice. Many will say that even up to a 320 grain boolit is good in a 44 mag. but to do this and keep the pressures down a design would need to place much of the boolit outside of the case such as in a LFN or WFN. Don't get me wrong, the Keith 245 grainer in the 44 Mag as been a very good performer no doubt but I think a bit on the light side for your neck of the woods and for your intended purpose of penetration on moose and bear. Yes, the 429421 and those close variants would be adequate on moose and black bear if shot placement is good just as it is for any hunt situation.

Just my thoughts and they are worth what you take from them.

[paul h]

My point is that a "softer" alloy can be water dropped to give a harder surface and a softer, ductile core. The surface needs the hardness for handling increased velocity, not the core. The core controls how it behaves on impact more.
I like bullets to think of these bullets as being "case hardened". I know the hardness goes deeper but in a 420 gr 45-70 bullet I bet the center of the bullet cools just enough slower to make a difference. I am speaking of 25/75 wheel weights/pure with a 1/4 pound mag shot per 20 pound pot.

I simply do not believe that water dropped bullets have a hard surface and more ductile core. I was looking at a 16 oz fishing jig that I cast from ww's and water dropped. It was hardened throughout. If a 1" dia jig is hardened throughout from water dropping, I'm pretty sure the same would hold true of bullets.

460 gr .475" water dropped ww bullet shot at 1100 fps, bullet on left through 38" of wet newsprint, bullet on right through 2" of bone and 10+" of wet newsprint.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/6/0/5/605102271/790102446_E694F7AB8CF06937E17554D03A00F87B.jpg

[MT Gianni]

Back to topic the hardest I ever got ww was with tap water casting @ 16 F. Cast fast enough to keep the water from icing up. I had close to 25 BHn. I no longer water drop but do want to try some 50-50 WD in the field this fall.

[MGySgt]

Heat Treated Verus natual hardness (ie. Heat Treated Verus Lineotype)

The heated treated boolit will bend, riviet, shear, small fractures as in Paul h's picture above.

Unscientific Test. Take a linoetype boolit and a WW heat treated boolit.

Test 1 - place both (one at a time of course) on a hard flat surface. Hit them with a 2.5 pound mini maul.

The Heat Treated WW will mushroom/rivet with some fracture lines on the out side of the boolit.

The linotype boolit will have large chunks fracture off

I did bothe tests a number of years ago, I repeated it 4 or 5 times but I also included a 50/50/1% tin (WW and Pure) - non heat treated.

The non heat treated always mushroomed with.
The heat treated 50/50 mushroomed/riveted and with small fracture lines on the out side (mushroom about 1/2 to 1/3 LES than the 50/50
The LineoType always broke into chunks.

Bottom line is that WW can be heat treated - Water drop or heat treated in oven - and get better GAME performance than Lineotype, MonoType, etc - anything with a hight antimoney (SP?) content like linotype, etc, with shatter vice bend under like conditions.

The Elk I have taken withmy 45/90 was a 430gr FP at 1,500 FPS at the muzzel didn't need to be any harder than 50/50 with some tin added for fill out. The last one I took was about 550 pound cow at 165 yards and broke the off side shoulder on it's exit from the boiler room. When she was skined and quarterd - found the hole but no lead was present that we could see. The Boolit is in the side of that ridge on the wister side of the rockies at about 10,000 feet burried in the dirt!

[popper]

Add arsenic or sulfur and the fracturing isn't as bad when HT. Agree with your statement about Lineotype, MonoType.

[MGySgt]

Popper - all I was getting for the HT was fracture lines, no real fracturing of the HT boolit, more like strech lines in the sides of the Boolit.

Add Arsenic? Don't want to poison them - just kill them. :)

[NuJudge]

It has been 30+ years since I left the University of Michigan's Metallurgy program, and I've done nothing with the degree in 25, but my recollection of my lab work was that varying the quench water temperature 20 or 30 degrees did nothing. What did do something was using something that caused the water vapor bubbles to collapse quicker. A lot of table salt in water did that.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I feel it does matter.
So does Veral Smith.
I did not know he had found similar effect as I had till after I had been doing it foe 20 yrs. or so.
He casts only in cold winter days. Temp. under 50*F if IRC.
I use a slush quench, & keep water at 32*F.
See BOOM BOOM'S SLUSH QUENCH thread.:Fire::Fire:

[just.don]

OK men ,
here's another of my unending questions.
Does the Temperature of the water effect the hardness of the bullet when we water drop ?
and how about the dept of the water the bullets fall through.
Seems like a good question to me, what say you.
I ask cause it seems when we oven harden the temp is important.
Julie in a fit of cleaning disposed of my old toaster oven that I had hidden in the shed.

I found this informative:
http://www.lasc.us/WiljenArsenic.htm

LOTS of good stuff @lasc