Problems with White Lightning Tumble Lube in ACP

[versifier]

I am a big fan of tumble lubing and push-through sizing, and, like many, I don't enjoy the mess of LLA on the tips of my boolits. I dip my rifle boolits, but for pistol bullets, I can't grab them to dip properly without getting it all over my hands, so I'm still tumble lubing them. I read with interest the threads from those who were experimenting with White Lightning Chain Lube, and figured I'd order some and do some experimenting with my handgun boolits. So far, I have had great results with it in revolvers and .357 boolits, good accuracy and no leading. It dries quickly and cleanly, doesn't stink, and doesn't attract a coating of lint/pet hair. I think it's fairly user friendly, but....

I got a new Glock 21 .45ACP about a month ago and have been working up loads for it. I started testing with boolits I cast last summer and lubed with LLA for my 1911's. No problems with them at all, and to keep the mess at minimum, I wiped them after loading with a cloth and mineral spirits, SOP. I should mention at this point that while I may let cleaning of my bolt rifles wait until they really need it, I am fanatical about keeping my semi-auto pistols squeaky clean and do them just as soon as I return home after a shooting session. This one was no different - after the session testing LLA lubed boolits, I cleaned it until it was perfect, no big job with a Glock to be sure. I decided that this is going to be a really fun shooter, so I got a 6cav mould and started casting in production mode.

The latest batch of RN boolits from the new mould I lubed with WLL, loaded them up for testing. Yesterday was my first serious range session with them. Accuracy was acceptable, and approaching decent with a couple of combinations.

At about 150rounds, I experienced a failure to return to battery. A hard push on the back of the slide got it the rest of the way, and I fired the round. (This was the 5th round of a 10shot group and it was looking to be the best load so far, all five of them in a nice round, small group.) Again, the pistol failed to return to battery. Hmmm. I says to myself, "Self," I says, "something's not right here." So I stopped shooting and took the pistol apart to see what was going on. At the front of the chamber was a ring of crud, just like what happens in some muzzle loaders with Triple7. It was solid, and hard, and with the patches I had with me, I could do nothing to it. I went home and there I scraped a little out to figure out what it was. It was not lead fouling. It was black and came off with great difficulty in small chunks. Six different solvents had no effect on it whatsoever, nylon bore brush was a waste of time. The bronze brush finally removed it after about twenty passes.

I am going back today to finish the tests I started yesterday, (about 90rds) and I will be examining the barrel carefully after every thirty shots. I am reasonably certain that the problem is the lube. I'll repost today's results on this thread after I get it cleaned tonight.

As I said, there have been no problems at all in my .357mag revolvers, I have not yet shot any in my .357 Contender, and probably won't until I get done testing loads in the new-to-me .30-30 carbine barrel it's wearing now. But if I am right, I expect to see a similar problem in it when I do.

Has anyone else noticed any problems with this lube in their pistols? Random thoughts, serious feedback, strange speculations, and wild ravings on this topic are all welcome.

[Ricochet]

Huh. New problem to me, but I haven't yet tried the White Lightning in my Government Model Colt, which is my only autoloader pistol. I have been tumble lubing with my derivatively named Brown Thunder homemade gooey mixture of assorted waxes and liquid Alox and shooting in the Colt, and while it gets a good bit of the stuff in the action, it doesn't cause any hard obstructionist buildup. I don't think the White Lightning would either. It certainly doesn't in my rifles. I've done extensive shooting with it in several Mausers and my Gewehr 88, a fair amount in my .300 Weatherby, M91/30 Mosin, and K-31 Schmidt. I don't clean my guns with smokeless powder and cast boolits till I can see buildup getting to be a problem or accuracy falling off noticeably. I'm just seeing a nice black greasy bore with a nice black greasy lube star at the muzzle in these with the White Lightning using IMR 7383 loads pushing gas checked boolits at velocities from 1800-2200 FPS. I've shot more in the 8mms than anything with the Lee 175 gr or the similar Group Buy boolit over a case full of 7383 running right at 2200 FPS out of the G88 or just over 2100 FPS out of most of the long Mausers. Works well.

[44man]

Just goes to show, you can't improve on good lubes. Some guys would try moose snot when there are so many better lubes.

[Ricochet]

Idea: Since my extensive experience with WLL is only with gas checked boolits, maybe the checks have been scraping out the buildup?

I think the WLL has a metallic soap in it, likely lithium based, but that's a guess. (May have other grease thickeners in it as well, but given the way it's applied, I doubt it's got much inorganic content.) When it burns, it should leave a metal oxide or carbonate residue of some sort.

That of course is also true of LLA, which has been identified as Alox 606-55-HF. The Lubrizol site further identifies Alox 606 as being a calcium soap. It can leave some hard buildups under certain conditions as well.

I'll be interested to hear further results of your experiments with WLL, and I'll try it out further myself under different conditions and see what I get. May be of more limited utility than I'd originally thought, if it builds up a hard residue.

[versifier]

Update
I'm not sure now that it's all the lube's fault. Yesterday I was testing loads with Bullseye, fired 150 rounds of it with no problem. Then I began to test loads with BlueDot. On the fifth round of the BlueDot test (fired round #155) I had to stop. I had assumed the problem had gradually been building up.
Today I began where I had left off yesterday with the BlueDot loads. At round #27, I was unable to continue like yesterday. Hmmm. Now I'm wondering if it was the Bdot itself or the Bdot/WLL combo. I will test it by casting some more, lubing with LLA, and loading them with more Bdot. I had never used Bdot in an auto pistol before, (I got it for .357mag Contender loads) but I saw there were loads listed for it and figured it wouldn't hurt to try it out.

[Scrounger]

I've used Blue Dot in .45 Auto. What was the problem you had? What bullet and powder charge?

[Ricochet]

I used a lot of Blue Dot in the .45 when Speer used to list that as the hot combo with their 200 grain JHP. It was an inefficient load and blew out lots of partly burned flakes, but I never had any fouling problems. I was never using cast boolits, so there was no interaction between the powder and a lube.

If there is an issue with the lube burning and forming a residue, it might behave differently with different loads and powders depending on the flame temperature and how long it's maintained.

Might be interesting simply to squirt some on a metal surface and point a propane torch at it. I've seen that done with LLA (in Richard Lee's book) but haven't tried it with WLL. Come to think of it, I have put some boolits lubed with WLL back in the pot, and didn't notice much residue or unusual smoke. Less than with LLA coated boolits, which I've also remelted. The residue is light, white powder when it quits smoking.

[versifier]

Boolit is Lee 452-228-1R. Charges are 8.7 and 9.1gr of BDOT.