Trouble Resizing

[DonMountain]

I am trying to reload some .243 casings for my grandson, and having trouble. They look like once fired factory Winchester cases, but when I full length resize them I am having trouble pulling the resizing ball back up through the case mouth. I am using Hornady lube on the outside and cleaning the case mouth with a brush and brushing in some "motor mica" on the inside for lubricating the inside of the case mouth. And they are all tough to pull the resizing ball back through. I have not had this kind of trouble with any of my .303 British, 30-40 Krag or any of my other cases. What am I doing wrong? :(

[geargnasher]

What brand of dies? Are you preparing the brass for cast or j-words? Have you removed the expander ball and checked its dimensions, and resized a case without it to see how much the neck is getting sized down with the expander out of the picture?

Gear

[joesig]

Check how smooth the expander ball is. Some are super rough and could stand putting the expander stem in a drill while you apply some 400 or 600 grit wet/dry paper a minute or two. You don't want to change the diameter too much but smooth is nice.

[popper]

Watch the one-shot, make sure it is DRY before sizing. Like Gear says and check to make sure the die is adjusted so the case neck comes out of the die before the expander does it's thing, screw the stem down farther. It's 308 brass and tough.

[Pat I.]

screw the stem down farther.

Try this.

[onesonek]

Watch the one-shot, make sure it is DRY before sizing. Like Gear says and check to make sure the die is adjusted so the case neck comes out of the die before the expander does it's thing, screw the stem down farther. It's 308 brass and tough.

If the decapping and expander rod is set to deprime, then it is deep enough. Setting any deeper, may interfer with the FL sizing stroke. And once the brass is being extracted, it only has to travel the distance of the neck before it is clear. This is well before it reaches the expander on all the .243 dies I have seen and used.
Otherwise check all that gearnasher noted.

[ku4hx]

I just smear a thin coating of Lee case lube on the inside of all my bottleneck cases. I do it with a Q-Tip moistened with the stuff. Ball just glides right out.

Since I trim, deburr, chamfer and tumble in walnut media before loading they all get cleaned of all the various bad residues.

[Pat I.]

screw the stem down farther.

Once again, try this.

[tomme boy]

Take a bore brush and run it into then out of the neck. It will be fine after that.

[44man]

That is a problem with many dies. They just size the necks too much.
I sent many dies back along with fired cases to have the necks lapped for minimum sizing.
Too much force to remove the spud can bend shoulders out of line and give you bad run out. The worst are the Weatherby cases with rounded shoulders.
Redding used to do it free but now they charge a small fee. Their collar dies eliminate the spud.

[9.3X62AL]

What 44 Man says, in spades--and not just steel dies for bottle-neck case designs, either. Your caliper and micrometer serve as a polygraph for the diemakers.

[popper]

onesonek - the spud on my RCBS is 1/4" long, Hornady is ~1". My 243 is Lee and not worth a darn. I honed out the neck and don't use the decap pin(J only).
Your caliper and micrometer serve as a polygraph for the diemakers. True, true.

[runfiverun]

i have to use a bore mop with lube on it to lube the inside of some of my cases.
if i don't they are a bear to pull back over the spud

[DonMountain]

I am using Hornady dies. And eventually trying to load boolits that I cast years ago when I had a .243 rifle. But I got rid of it since it didn't shoot boolits well. But I am just trying to load some plinking loads for the young grandson's single shot rifle. So the dies haven't been used very much. And the cases look new or once fired. They full length size easily, but I can't pull the sizing ball back through and I am afraid I am going to break the press or pull the loading table off the bolts into the wall. I've taken out the sizing ball and cleaned it, but that didn't make a difference. And the sizing ball is way clear of the neck-in-die position as I pull it down. I do have a neck sizing die for a .243 also. Maybe I will try that one. Or try switching the Spud on the two dies and see what that does. But I have to full length size the cases or the grandson's single shot rifle won't close up again. :groner:

[geargnasher]

You're ruining your brass (see 44Man's post), stop and see what's the matter with the die. I think it's sizing the neck too small. Remove the decapper/expander rod, FL size a case, and measure the OD of the neck, that will tell you what's up.

Gear

[tomme boy]

I have loaded thousands of 243s. The brass seems to work harden faster than most calibers. Try running a brush in an out the neck just before sizing. It works.

[trk]

Good selection of answers.

Carbide (or carbide plated) expanders reduce the friction if brushing/cleaning/lubricating the ID doesn't do it for you.

I really like the Wilson straight-line neck sizers - you can put in just right sized collet and do a minimal resize so the expansion is also minimal.

ALso the Wilson expanders (at leas the body of the holder) are good. I make my own expanders - different for each diameter cast bullet and case-wall-thickness & chamber.

[popper]

I have to do the same thing for 2 grandkids 243's. Did you mike the neck OD after FL size (no spud), neck thickness and spud OD? Neck OD - 2x wall thickness will give neck ID. If neck ID is .002-3 less than .243, just FL without the spud and seat the J bullet. May have to use your neck die to decap. I have the Lee die and it's a PITA. I cut the FL decap pin off use the FL to size and NS part to decap. Have a range bag of 243 to check HS and NT on from using the Lee set-up (for 2 weatherby 243s) Did you use blue locktite on that hornady spud? I found if mine is loose it doesn't work well.

[Cap'n Morgan]

That is a problem with many dies. They just size the necks too much.

This is a pic of partially seated bullet in my 375 before I opened the neck. The case had been resized without the expander to get an idea of how much the neck was sized down before expanding. No wonder some of the necks would split after a few reloads.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6416/img0552yg.jpg

[geargnasher]

That illustrates my point nicely, Cap'n. This is more common than many folks realize, especially shooting oversized cast boolits (oversized compared to the nominal size j-words most dies are designed for).

Gear

[williamwaco]

i have to use a bore mop with lube on it to lube the inside of some of my cases.
if i don't they are a bear to pull back over the spud


+1

In my experience ALL bottleneck cartridges need to be lubricated inside the neck before sizing.

Unless they were tumbled and very clean immediately before resizing.

.

[44man]

This is a pic of partially seated bullet in my 375 before I opened the neck. The case had been resized without the expander to get an idea of how much the neck was sized down before expanding. No wonder some of the necks would split after a few reloads.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6416/img0552yg.jpg
Thank you for a perfect illustration. It is the same for jacketed.
Die makers have to go with certain specs because some guys neck turn to even brass and ream. Brass is all different. Chambers are all different too.
I always used BR practices for rifles and single shot pistols. I learned to make the dies work, fix them or get them fixed. One shirt does not fit all.
Same with revolvers, dies can ruin your shooting.
Every post I ever made has said accuracy is at your bench, not on the range.
Over sizing rifle brass necks has been a big thorn in my side forever.
We need to convince that those problems at the bench need to be fixed and they can be.
Never accept what a die maker thinks is right.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thoughts;

1. Motor Mica is worthless as a case neck lube. I know it is sold for that purpose, but all if did was make things harder for me.

2. I don't like those drag through expanders. They stretch and overwork the case necks. I use an M-Die for everything.

[44man]

A couple of thoughts;

1. Motor Mica is worthless as a case neck lube. I know it is sold for that purpose, but all if did was make things harder for me.

2. I don't like those drag through expanders. They stretch and overwork the case necks. I use an M-Die for everything.
But an "M" die goes in from the top.
They can also over expand brass after over sizing. Most "M" dies ruin case tension.

[popper]

Most "M" dies ruin case tension. How so? Any brass that moves goes to the shoulder or head. Pull out types move it to the mouth. I don't see how a spud moving in either direction can ruin neck tension. Enlighten me please.

[cag215]

Lay your cases down on a rag with the case mouth pointing towards you. Spray the lube at the open case mouth. Roll the brass 1/2 turn and spray again.

Wait 5 mins before you size the brass.....This works great with the RCBS case lube.

I had a 6mm rem that i had to anneal the necks about every 3 times I shot the brass...
Brass that has the necks annealed are a lot easier to run through the sizing die.

[44man]

How so? Any brass that moves goes to the shoulder or head. Pull out types move it to the mouth. I don't see how a spud moving in either direction can ruin neck tension. Enlighten me please.
The "M" die opens a small portion of the neck larger then a spud drawn out. That allows a boolit to enter deeper. That portion has less tension.
It takes pressure to push it in if the neck was over sized and that pressure can move the shoulder a little.
Anything that takes any force, in or out, can create more boolit run out. You want to limit run out to .002" or less. It is more critical with cast. The wrong die set up can make run out as much as .020" or more.
BR dies are more gentle on brass with limited neck sizing and inline seaters but seating in itself is not the biggest problem, it is sizing and expanding.
Some guns NEED FL sizing and some need small base dies. But you can still fix the neck area to keep the case straight.
Everyone should have a run out indicator. I made my own.
Those shooting cast from rifles might have bad run out problems that ruin accuracy and not know it.

[L Ross]

This is why I like Lee Collet neck sizers. Yup, if you are shooting brass not originally fired in the rifle you are now loading for, you have to full length size once. I anneal the neck and a bit of the shoulder, full length size without the expander ball, expand with a M-die, load and shoot. After that, I neck size with a Lee collet die. I adjust it to get enough neck tension to securely hold a cast bullet but not so tight as to distort it when seated.
When I load jacketed, I lube the inside of the neck with Imperial case lube wax applied with a mascara brush. That eases the expander ball dramatically.

Duke

[44man]

This is why I like Lee Collet neck sizers. Yup, if you are shooting brass not originally fired in the rifle you are now loading for, you have to full length size once. I anneal the neck and a bit of the shoulder, full length size without the expander ball, expand with a M-die, load and shoot. After that, I neck size with a Lee collet die. I adjust it to get enough neck tension to securely hold a cast bullet but not so tight as to distort it when seated.
When I load jacketed, I lube the inside of the neck with Imperial case lube wax applied with a mascara brush. That eases the expander ball dramatically.

Duke
The collet die does work but you also need another die set because after so many shots, the rest of the case will need sized just like when you neck size only with regular dies. You will get hard chambering or can't load at all. Bolt guns can go a long time because of the power to chamber but a single shot, lever or semi might need FL all the time. That is where the collet die will fail you.
The full truth is there is no difference in accuracy between FL and neck sized.
Brass itself is where accuracy is found. BR shooters pick the 5 cases that group the same and load the same brass over and over at the shooting bench.
The revolver is the same, brass alone can shoot small groups or fail you.

[popper]

It takes pressure to push it in if the neck was over sized and that pressure can move the shoulder a little OK, runout, not neck tension, agreed. For BN cases, the pull out spud won't mess with the neck, for run-out. Then flaring the mouth puts the same type of forces you want to avoid, right back on the unsupported case.
That allows a boolit to enter deeper Again, flaring creates the same problem. I assume most here are not BR shooters but do want to load the best we can. Can't disagree with anything you've said, just can't afford the fancy equipment BR use. Other than tweeking my dies to reduce oversizing, adjusting them properly, not much more I can do.

[Char-Gar]

I don't have any fancy little gizmos to measure runout on pistol rounds. I don't shoot pistols bench rest and 100 yards and beyond. As I have stated before, If a pistol and it's ammo will stay in the X-Ring of a 50 yards target at 50 yards, that is all I ask.

I have been loading ammo for handguns for over 50 years now and have used M-die and they produce ammo that I would call "match grade". That is all I need or want. The rest of you can fret over the use of M-dies and neck tension, but that discussion has no relevance to my world.

[44man]

OK, runout, not neck tension, agreed. For BN cases, the pull out spud won't mess with the neck, for run-out. Then flaring the mouth puts the same type of forces you want to avoid, right back on the unsupported case. Again, flaring creates the same problem. I assume most here are not BR shooters but do want to load the best we can. Can't disagree with anything you've said, just can't afford the fancy equipment BR use. Other than tweeking my dies to reduce oversizing, adjusting them properly, not much more I can do.
You are close except for too much pressure to remove a spud from the neck, it DOES ruin run out, BIG time.
Flaring the neck is nothing at all, no pressure needed. Needing to over expand is different.
You do not need BR equipment, just use the same practice by fixing your dies.
You can gently lap the neck portion of a die until it sizes right, yes it is that easy. The last thing I will tell you to do is spend more money.
The die maker will do the work for about $15. Some might do it free. Just explain what you want. The spud should just have a little pressure to remove, not lifting your bench off the floor.
The cheapest set of dies can load BR quality once fixed.
BR shooters understand that it is the brass that is the most important thing, then the bullet and then the load.

[44man]

I don't have any fancy little gizmos to measure runout on pistol rounds. I don't shoot pistols bench rest and 100 yards and beyond. As I have stated before, If a pistol and it's ammo will stay in the X-Ring of a 50 yards target at 50 yards, that is all I ask.

I have been loading ammo for handguns for over 50 years now and have used M-die and they produce ammo that I would call "match grade". That is all I need or want. The rest of you can fret over the use of M-dies and neck tension, but that discussion has no relevance to my world.
My revolver loads have zero run out. It is different then shoulders on rifle rounds. I use harder lead so I do not need an "M" die. Yes, my revolvers are for long range and hunting so neck tension is accuracy.
But you are also OK with what you do.
There is a huge difference between straight wall brass and bottle neck brass.

[popper]

My 2 cents - we need discussions like this to keep going up the learning curve. We, as individuals can stop where we want to.

[geargnasher]

Bottom lime is modify your dies, or buy dies where possible, that make the brass fit your particular gun as it needs to. I've honed a pile of dies to fit my guns, and honed/filed/turned down expanders and had custom expanders made to give me exactly the case neck tension I need without overworking the brass.

I'm going to get flamed for this, but for most situations, the two-step Lyman M die is worthless.

I've used them, and they can get you by, and sometimes I still recommend them for certain things because RCBS, who makes the only good, regular-production expanders I've ever used, doesn't have as good a selection of sizes.

If you have a Lee rifle die set, hone the neck of the die until it only sizes your brass about .003" or so below your boolit size on the ID of the neck. Then, get an RCBS expander spud that's about .001-2" or so smaller thant he boolit and expand the entire neck length plus put a hint of bellmouth on the case at the same time. "back off" the die from the shellplate until it only sized the body of the case enough for your chambering needs depending with the action and cartridge. Only "bump" the case shoulder if it has one just enough that it doesn't bind the bolt when closing. This will ensure straight necks and consistent boolit tension. The expander needs to actually stretch the brass in the "bigger" direction after it's been sized down to get the metal programmed to reverse direction prior to seating the boolit. Metal doesn't like to change directions of bend or flex, so if you just size and cram the boolit in the neck, the boolit is having to do extra work and the brass might not stretch consistently. When sizing down just a hair smaller than you need and then stretching it back out just a tiny bit with a straight, hardened-steel expander of the correct size, the case neck tension is forced to be more uniform. Then, the boolit only has to flex it a little bit when seating, getting just the tension it needs and not having to actually push the brass beyond it's elastic limit. Use good steel tools for mashing the brass around, NOT your delicate boolits, and don't mash the brass any more than absolutlely necessary or it will be all wongo when you do a concentricity check later.

Most reloading dies are meant for J-word bullets, which have a totally different set of dimensional requirements. You need to customize your dies and your methods for each gun you have that shoots cast boolits.

Gear

[Longwood]

Bottom lime is modify your dies, or buy dies where possible, that make the brass fit your particular gun as it needs to. I've honed a pile of dies to fit my guns, and honed/filed/turned down expanders and had custom expanders made to give me exactly the case neck tension I need without overworking the brass.

I'm going to get flamed for this, but for most situations, the two-step Lyman M die is worthless.

I've used them, and they can get you by, and sometimes I still recommend them for certain things because RCBS, who makes the only good, regular-production expanders I've ever used, doesn't have as good a selection of sizes.

If you have a Lee rifle die set, hone the neck of the die until it only sizes your brass about .003" or so below your boolit size on the ID of the neck. Then, get an RCBS expander spud that's about .001-2" or so smaller thant he boolit and expand the entire neck length plus put a hint of bellmouth on the case at the same time. "back off" the die from the shellplate until it only sized the body of the case enough for your chambering needs depending with the action and cartridge. Only "bump" the case shoulder if it has one just enough that it doesn't bind the bolt when closing. This will ensure straight necks and consistent boolit tension. The expander needs to actually stretch the brass in the "bigger" direction after it's been sized down to get the metal programmed to reverse direction prior to seating the boolit. Metal doesn't like to change directions of bend or flex, so if you just size and cram the boolit in the neck, the boolit is having to do extra work and the brass might not stretch consistently. When sizing down just a hair smaller than you need and then stretching it back out just a tiny bit with a straight, hardened-steel expander of the correct size, the case neck tension is forced to be more uniform. Then, the boolit only has to flex it a little bit when seating, getting just the tension it needs and not having to actually push the brass beyond it's elastic limit. Use good steel tools for mashing the brass around, NOT your delicate boolits, and don't mash the brass any more than absolutlely necessary or it will be all wongo when you do a concentricity check later.

Most reloading dies are meant for J-word bullets, which have a totally different set of dimensional requirements. You need to customize your dies and your methods for each gun you have that shoots cast boolits.

Gear

This is some of the best information that I have seen on this site to date.
Thanks for putting it into one post.

[geargnasher]

I appreciate that, Longwood, but did no one read 44Man's posts? He was saying essentially the same thing in a more general way. I think customizing dies is something a lot of people eventually find they need to do with cast boolits, but don't talk about it much. If you load exactly the way Lyman says to and use their tools, you'll be stuck with the same mediocre results they've always gotten.

Gear

[Longwood]

I think customizing dies is something a lot of people eventually find they need to do with cast boolits, but don't talk about it much.

Gear

I believe you are correct.
I tried a while back to interest a couple of other in splitting some diamond polishes so it would not cost so much to get some.
Not one return post.
????

I bought some of the Expander plugs from Track of the Wolf and things are improving.
On attempting to remove the carbide ring from a Lee die.
I discovered that the ring is not a press fit, it is crimped in.
A little grinding or machining off of the base of the die sure makes the job go better.

[fatelvis]

If your sizer is taking your neck down that small, I can almost guarantee that the expander ball is pulling the shoulder out of whack as it's passing through. I'm loving NS and FL bushing dies more and more every day!