Surplus powders in the 444marlin ?

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Has anyone tried any of the surplus powders ( especially WC 860) in the 444 Marlin lever action?
Thinking with a 277gr, GC boolit?:Fire::Fire:

7/2/12
At this time I am going to expand my discussion in this thread to include all bullet weights & any powder.

[6pt-sika]

deleted

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot some 844 in the 444 and it did well.

[Kestrel4k]

My first thought was WC820 (which I've got a bit of experience with in other calibers) so I did some cross-referencing. That one appears to be unsuitable for the .444. I know that you were asking about 860, but thought we might exclude my guess right off. Sorry I can't be more help,

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
The powders I have on the shelf are:
WC 860
WC 846
H 414
2400
WC 820

The last 2 might do for squib loads.:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have 3 boolits to play with.
The Lyman 250gr, GC Kieth style SWC.
The 265 gr GC , Ranch Dog which drops out at 277gr. when sized & lubed.
The Lee 310 gr GC which drops out as 325grs. when sized & lubed.

It would be nice if I could use ether WC 860 or WC 846 which I:Fire::Fire: have.

[Marlin Junky]

For a heavy hitter look to 846 and the Lee boolit. About 50 grains should get your attention. You're wasting your time with the two slower powders and 846 may even be a tad slow with a carbine length barrel... use a mag primer.

2400 and WC-820 can be useful in circa 20 grain doses with light boolits.

Re7, the 4198's and 2200-2230-H335 sphercials are probably the most useful powders for the 444. Certain lots of WC-846 may fall into this spherical burn range as well. 50+ grains of H335 worked very well for me with Lee C430-310.

MJ

[Jim]

I don't own a 444 nor have I ever loaded for one. I have, though, been loading for .45-70s over ten years with milsurp powders. I have successfully used IMR 7383, WC 820 and WC 860.

[Maven]

BB, Let me know how you do with WC 820 and 2400. Btw, 10gr. -12gr. Unique may be worth considering if you don't mind purchasing another powder.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I started this thread here & then in Canister & Surplus powders as they seemed the most logical places.
I usually do not do parallel threads but wanted to get as much input as I could before embarking on my latest project. So now there are also parallel threads in PET LOADS & CAST BULLETS.
I am trying to buy back my old 1970 era 444 marlin rifle, which I sold[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b: along with the dies & several hundred pieces of brass. This guy does not reload & has about shot them all up. So he has mentioned to me at least 3 times he is thinking of selling it. So I have made 3 offers to buy it back.
I will now focus my efforts here, as this is where the most interest has occurred.:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I want to thank all those who have made comments so far. Not only here but in personal messages, & in parallel threads.

Before I go any farther, I would like to request that who feel inclined to make comments of caution to me, or comments to other posters ( ESPECIALLY TO SENIOR MEMBERS OF THIS BOARD) on their posts & helpful input, to try to be polite. You might want to not only look at not only the number of posts but at the join date, some of us were at 2 other boards & posting there before this one was created. I myself stayed with the other previous boards for almost a year each before joining this one and read all the older posts & printed out much info as I worried that the old boards would disappear. So as a result I did not join & start posting here for over a year after this board was started.

I have noticed that many of our wiser & more knowledgeable members are posting less & less.
THIS IS A GREAT LOSS!
Many of them have made it known to me that they find some of the newbie/greenhorns comments insulting.
I AM NOT SAYING THE NEWER MEMBERS DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE & GOOD INFORMATION TO IMPART!
They enrich the board.
So please remember that the older members have been doing this for 40-50 yrs.
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
There is a definite trend in posts in several boards, including here favoring heavy bullets.
However there are a lot of lighter bullets that fill a useful function, are flatter at short range ( with full powder loads), are cheaper & more pleasant to shoot. They are easily adequate for small game & practice.
They can of course be used in 44 mag pistols (my usage) and rifles.
Here is a list of the ones that have been around since at least 1970. some existed in both cast & jacked versions.
120 gr. r. ball,129gr.,158gr.,170 gr.,180 gr., 185gr.,200gr.205 gr.,210gr.,215gr.,220gr.
I have data for the 170gr., 180 & 185 gr., 200 &205 gr., 215gr. if any of you want some of this data ask. Some of this data is for squib loads.
The only one I have used is the 180gr. The cast version has taken game up to smaller deer size.
I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND ANY OF THE JACKED VERSIONS FOR DEER AT FULL VELOCITY IN THE 444 MARLIN.
But the 180gr. & up wt. bullets have all taken deer in the past for many, at 44mag. pistol velocity.
In fact the 120gr. round ball has taken deer out of muzzle loaders, while the 158gr. has taken over 100 deer for Jerry Lister out of the 357 mag. pistol (smaller dia.)
These weight bullets would not be my personal choice for deer,hogs,or any other big game species.
If you have knowledge of other lite weight bullets, I have not listed please post something about them.
:Fire::Fire:

[Ron.D]

I've done some experimenting with WC 820. Encouraged with help from Maven and Beagle, I've tried it in the 45-70 and 444. The 45-70 seemed to like filler, but it worked to satisfaction. The 444 seemed to like it quite well without filler. With a 265 gr. boolit, 24 grs. got me close to 1600 ft/sec. and 25 grs. just a bit faster but the group seemed to tighten just a bit (3" at 100 with 3X scope) Please use the usual cautions and start a little lower and work up. I always use a magnum primer with WC 820 and don't start too low. It's a ball powder after all, and may show signs of pressure sensitivity, although I've found it more user friendly than some would have you believe. Ron.D

[BOOM BOOM]

Ron.D
Thanks for the info......thanks for the safety reminder.
YES! I definitely will follow all the usual precautions.

I have been reloading & casting since 1969. I have been involved with wildcatting since 1970.
That was when I first met P.O. ACLEY (SP) IIRC.
He was a great target barrel maker & wildcater here in Utah. He was an internationally known gunsmith, wrote reloading manuals, wrote for gun magazines. Many of todays factory cartridges came directly from his exploratory work. He gave us a great deal of information on action strength.
He started before there were pressure barrels & sensor systems.
I learned a lot from him.
Also I have taken 2 collage gunsmithing courses.

I am not really a big fan of duplex loads, BUT IF DONE CORRECTLY, it can be a useful tech. Luckily duplexing can often be avoided by switching powders, a safer way to achieve the same goal. But I admit to having done it.

As some of you know using FILLERS IS ALSO A DEBATABLE PRACTICE. Especially in straight walled cases, due to possible chamber ringing. But it does Prevent S.E.E. type explosions. So it is also a useful tech. IF DONE CORRECTLY , fillers work. I have done it in bottle neck cases many 1,000's of times. Luckily the use of FILLERS CAN OFTEN BE AVOIDED BY JUST SWITCHING POWDERS.
:Fire::Fire:

[Marlin Junky]

Actually... I just pulled out my "444 Vol II, The Light Loads" and noticed that 25 grains of 4759 shoots like its got eyes with everything from 240 grain Sierras to my 345 grain Accurate Mold. I've also had good experiences with 2400 but 820 proved to do much better in the 30-30 than it did in the 444... which is probably the reason I started using 4759 in the 444. Of course your expectations and experiences may be different. My 444 is the "Outfitter" with a 18.5" barrel that's got "Deep Cut Ballard Rifling" :bigsmyl2: which is approximately .0025" deep with a 1:20" twist. The nice thing about 4759 is that you don't need to use special alloy handling techniques to get fine accuracy at 1600 fps; i.e., good 'ol air cooled WW metal (2+ week aging) works very well.

Oh yeah, I never got PB's to shoot worth a darn at much over 1300 fps.

MJ

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Thanks for your input , MARLIN JUNKIE.

I forgot to mention COMPRESSED LOADS, in the background post # 14.

COMPRESSED LOADS are also a problem for some reloaders. Once again we have a useful tech. that IF DONE CORRECTLY , HAS SOME ADVANTAGES.
I admit I have done this too, OH WELL I'M INCORRIGIBLE.
Yes, it can be harder to do, & with some powders might not be a good tech., you might have to buy ( or make) a drop tube.
It allows you to get higher vel. with some powders, if you just fill the case with some powders there is NO CHANCE of an overload, & bullets will almost never telescope into case under recoil.
:Fire::Fire:

[9.3X62AL]

MJ et al--

I was wondering about the use of heavier-for-caliber bullets/boolits in the 444 Marlins, since a lot of them use (or used) the old 44-40 twist rate of 1:38". Your post cleared that up some, a 1:20" pitch rate would keep the longer slugs going point-first.

I have avoided the 444 Marlin caliber due to its slow twist rate. I've always thought that element really held the caliber back.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
An old HANDLOADER magazine stated stated that the old slow twist microgroove barrels would not stabilize bullets over 325gr.
This has been disproved decisively. Bullet was the problem.
Many have had good results with the RANCH DOG 350GR. (RECOIL OUCH) & even with various 400gr. bullets(RECOIL OUCH).:bigsmyl2:

I will stop with my Lee 310gr. wfn mold. It actually drops finished bullets that weigh 325gr. more than enough for anything of this Continent.

I am still dickering to buy back my old 444 Marlin.:groner:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:
BOY I DID A STUPID!
Only excuse is I was out of work & had to feed the wife & kids.

[9.3X62AL]

I am still dickering to buy back my old 444 Marlin.:groner:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:
BOY I DID A STUPID!
Only excuse is I was out of work & had to feed the wife & kids.

That's a REASON, and a good one--not an excuse by any means.

[Marlin Junky]

If I was going to purchase a 444 with the intention of shooting nothing longer than Lee C430-310, I would look for an older one (actually one of the first ones) with 12 "MicroGrooves". I hate to tell you guys, but the MicroGrooves of the late 60's were deeper than the "Deep Cut Ballard Style" rilfing Marlin switched to in 1998-2000. Reason #2 for preferring an older gun is the slower twist that may allow the use of softer alloys. My 6-groove fast twist "smooth bore" really prefers Lyman #2 or harder. With that being said, I have not done any expansion testing or hunting with the 1:20" 444 ('99 vintage) and heat treated or water dropped castings; therefore, I can't speak to it's effectiveness on game. I'm pretty sure however, that the old barrels would produce better results with 250-300 grain PB boolits than the new millennium barrels.

MJ

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
From my records the lightest boolit I have shot was the 170gr.
It was just a fun squib practice load.
13 grs. of RED DOT worked OK.
13 GRS. of 700X worked OK, NOT GREAT GROUPS.
With these I DID NOT use a filler.
Just elevate the barrel before shooting each time to get powder back against the primer.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
This bullet worked out better for me. Both jacketed & Pb versions.
In the 70's there were only pistol jacketed bullets in this weight, so at full power they were only a small game /practice load.
Between my Ruger SBH 44 mag pistol & the 444 marlin lever action I fired over 1,000 of the Jacketed bullets alone.
A lot of fun & low recoil.
FULL POWER LOADS:
IMR 3031 50-55-58 GRS. 2030- 2240- 2400'/S 55GRS. WAS BEST FOR ME.
IMR 4198 45-49-50-51 GRS. 2200-2410-2450-2500'/S 46.5 WAS BEST
IMR 4895 54-55-58-61GRS. 2055-2330-2400-2500'/S 55GRS. WAS BEST
IMR 4831 FULL CASE (C) 2066'/S

REDUCED LOADS:
H 4227 33-35GRS.
WW630 16.5 -22 GRS. 1310-1605'/S
BLUE DOT 15-20 GRS. 1335- 1745'/S
SR 7625 13-18 GRS. 1440-1755 '/S
SR 4756 14-19 GRS. 1425-1755'/S
IMR 4189 39.5GRS. + FILLER 2010'/S BEST GROUP FOR ME.

These were all shot in a 444marlin lever action with a 24" barrel.
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I consider the 120gr. R.B, the 129gr., the 158gr., the 166gr., the 170 gr., the 180gr., the 185 gr., the 200 gr., the 205 gr., the 210 gr. ,the 215 gr., the 220 gr, bullets to fit in the lite bullet group.
This may not be a complete list as this is from my research of the 1970's. I have not checked on what is available currently.
I feel there application is limited to small game & practice.

That said, in the 44mag pistol, at pistol velocities, they have taken deer for others.
They would also work in a self defense roll against 2 legged snakes.

I did not work with the others as I liked the 180 gr.
I do have loads for the 200gr, the 205 gr.,& the 215 gr. bullets, so if you want more info on them ask.
As always use common sense, start low & work up checking for pressure signs.

The acceptable SAAMI pressure levels for the 444 marlin are 44,000 CUP or 42,000 PSI.
ONCE AGAIN, THE USE OF FIBER WADS, OR FIBER FILLERS IN STRAIT WALLED CASES MAY RESULT IN CHAMBER RINGING.
The best COL that seems to work with out jamming the lever action is between
2.494 and 2.582"
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I stopped using the lite bullets in just a couple yrs.
When I moved to the mid weight bullets these were the ones I could find ( AT THAT TIME):
The 225gr, the 232 gr., the 237 gr., the 240 gr., the 245gr. the 246gr., the 250gr., the 255gr., the 265gr., the 270 gr., 275 gr., 280 gr., the 290 gr.

I liked the 225gr.(JACKETED), the 240gr.(JACKETED), the 250 gr.(LEAD w/ G.C.), & 265 gr.(JACKETED).
I have killed deer with each of these bullets, DRT kills.
MANY HAVE PUT DOWN THE 225 & 240 GR. JACKETED BULLETS DUE TO OVER EXPANSION.
I did not find this to be a problem for me.
These 4 bullets, when making a chest or shoulder hit on Mule Deer, picked up the deer rotated their bodies horizontal to the ground & threw them 4' sideways. BANG FLOP. NO TRACKING.
Recoil does start to get noticeable with the 250 & 265 gr. bullets for me. I did not enjoy shooting after 13 rounds with the full power loads with the 265gr. after 15 rounds with the 250gr. at the range.
I did not experiment with other the mid wt. bullets but can provide load data if you ask.
There were very good reasons the factory (Remington) chose the 240 & 265 gr. bullets.
The 240 gr. is excellent on deer sized game & down in weight & toughness & recoil is not bad.
The 265gr. is excellent for bigger,heavier, tougher , thicker skinned game.
I have read dozens of successful accounts of DRT results with these bullets with boiler room hits.
However hunting is NOT the same as charge stopping, from bear or moose.
I have shot multiple 1,000's of the 225gr., the 250 gr., & several 100's of the 240gr., & some of the 265 gr.
And I still do .
If I had to choose only 1 load, it would be the 265gr., as it is the most versatile.
But then I would have to limit my amount of shooting of full power loads, due to recoil.
You see I like to shoot a lot.
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Oops I forgot to post my pet FULL POWER loads for the 180gr. bullet.
I got my best groups with 46.5 grs. of IMR 4198.
:Fire::Fire:
I TRIED:
IMR 3031 50-58 GRS. THE BEST LOAD WAS 55GRS. AT A MV OF 2240'/S
IMR 4895 54-61GRS. THE BEST LOAD WAS 55GRS AT MV OF 2330'/S
1MR 4831 HERE YOU CAN JUST FILL THE CASE & HAVE COMPRESSED (C) CHARGE. WAS THE LEAST ACCURATE.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
For REDUCED/LITER/SQUIB LOADS with the 180 gr. bullet I tried:
WW 630 16.5-22GRS. 1310-1605'/S
BLUE DOT 15-20 GRS. 1335-1745'/S
SR 7625 13-18GRS. 1440-1755'/S
SR4756 14-19GRS. 1425-1755'/S
IMR 4198 39.5 GRS + DACRON FILLER 2010'/S BEST GROUPS.

The jacked bullet gives good expansion at these velocities, while the cast bullet gives better penetration.

For best results I would suggest elevating rifle barrel to the vertical between shots.
this gets powder to rear against primer , many powders are position sensitive in the case.:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
While I no longer use this bullet in the 444, it was fun to shoot & effective on the deer & lesser game I shot with it. I had some feeding problems with it , causing occasional jams.
I still us it in the 44 mag. on deer & lesser game, which I feel is it's best application.
I tried:
H 4895 56GRS. 2301'/S
H335 61GRS. 2340'/S
BL (C) 2 61GRS. 2358'/S
H 4227 33GRS. 2099'/S
IMR 3031 50-55GRS. 2032'/S- 2237'/S OK GROUPS
IMR 4198 46-49 GRS. 2288-2409'/S BEST GROUP 48GRS.
IMR 4895 52-57GRS. 2036'/S- 2217'/S
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
ALL THIS & THE ABOVE WORK I DID BEFORE I GOT AWARE OF & INTO USING SURPLUS POWDERS.

Loads for the 225 gr. bullet can be had for the following powders.
the ones I tried are:
UNIQUE 12-17.5 GRS. BEST GROUPS 17GRS.[smilie=w:
700X 10-15 GRS.
GREEN DOT 11-16 GRS.
H-110 24GRS.

ONES I DID NOT TRY ARE:
SR 4556 18-21 GRS.
SR 7625 13-17.5GRS
SR 4756 14-21GRS.
RED DOT 11-15.5 GRS
BLUE DOT 15-19.5 GRS.
WW 630 16.5-22GRS.

AS I may have said before RED DOT & 2400 are not position sensitive, I AM NOT SURE OF THIS BUT UNIQUE MAY NOT BE ETHER.
DOES ANYONE ELSE KNOW THIS FOR SURE?????????????????
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I used the 240 gr. bullet for awhile, but like the 225rg. experienced enough jams, that I no longer use it. That said it killed deer with no problem s for me.
But now it is regulated to use in my 44 mag.
The 225 &240gr. bullets were of JACKETED SWC design so perhaps that might have been part of the problem. Also I may not have hit on the ideal O.C.L. for them.
The nice thing with this wt. bullet is you are now getting into the weight range where it does not matter a lot weather the bullet is jacked or cast w/ G.C. , they can be shot at nearly the same velocities.
I AM AWARE OF ABOUT 33 OR MORE POWDERS THAT CAN BE USED WITH THIS WEIGHT BULLET.
I DID NOT TRY ALL OF THEM.
HERE ARE THE ONES I TRIED FOR LITE LOADS :
UNIQUE 12-17GRS. GOOD GROUPS, FAVORITE.
H 110 24GRS.
2400 31-40.3 GRS. NICE GROUPS
700X 10-14.5 GRS. OK USED A LOT
GREEN DOT 11-15.5 GRS OK USED A LOT
IMR 4198 37GRS. + FILLER 1760'/S GOOD GROUPS.
THESE LOADS VELOCITY RANGE IN THE 44MAG LEVEL 1100-1700'/S
I suspect that many deer have been taken with this type of load with the 44 mag., certainly you would have to admit that it would do as well in the 444 Marlin.
THERE ARE ABOUT 10 MORE USEABLE PISTOL POWDERS, ask if you want more info on this subject.
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I shot & hunted deer with this bullet for awhile but moved to the 250gr. as it worked better through my lever action.
HERE WE FINALLY GET TO SURPLUS POWDERS.:mrgreen:
There are at least 18-20 powders that give velocities over 2000'/s, that I know of.
Here are the ones I tried:
H 4198 46-49 GRS.
IMR 4198 42-48GRS., BEST GROUP WAS 46GRS. AT 2302'/S
IMR 4895 54-57GRS. GOOD GROUP WAS 56GRS. AT2200'/S
WC 846 54GRS. [smilie=w:[smilie=w:
YOU SEE I LIKE TO SHOOT A LOT!
:Fire::Fire:

[6pt-sika]

deleted

[6pt-sika]

deleted

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
This bullet became my favorite bullet, cast bullets with G.C. can be driven at FULL POWER & GREAT ACCURACY in MICROGROOVE & PORTED barrels. .
IN FACT I GOT BETTER ACCURACY WITH CAST THAN WITH JACKED BULLETS.
There about 10 pistol powders that can be used.
THESE ARE THE ONES I TRIED:
UNIQUE 11-17 GRS,,:bigsmyl2::Fire::Fire::mrgreen:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:
I SHOT THE SMALLEST CAST BOLLIT GROUP I HAVE EVER SHOT.
1 RAGGED HOLE, 11 SHOTS.
700X 10-14.5GRS VERY GOOD GROUP 13GRS.
GREEN DOT 11-15.5 GRS.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
As I said before, the 250gr. bullet became my favorite, it functioned almost as well as the old R-P factory 265 gr. jacked bullet.
The recoil may have been slightly less, but its effect on Mule deer was the same, BANG-FLOP.
Also my marlin lever action shot it more accurately than the factory loads, & it was a cast boolit.
THE LOADS I TRIED WERE:
IMR 3031 44-55GRS. RESULTS WERE NOT AS GOOD AS FACTORY GROUPS.
IMR 4198 44 -47 GRS. GROUPS WERE BETTER THAN FACTORY LOADS , BEST 10 SHOT GROUPS I GOT WITH FULL POWER LOADS. AND A CAST BULLET. :bigsmyl2:[smilie=w:[smilie=w::Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I had wanted to have a hand load as good as the best factory load, & had one more accurate. Nearly the same as far as I could tell in energy level & effect on the game I had hunted commonly.
At that time there were some heavier bullets, but they were not very popular.
The 265 gr. RD, the 270GR. , 275 GR.,280GR. & 290GR. WERE NOT IN EXISTENCE, or I was not aware of them.
In fact the only data for heavier bullets I knew of was in an old HANDLOADER article that said the marlin would not stabilize anything above a 325gr.
I now have the 265 gr. Ranch Dog mold, & I think it would function even better through the lever action ( no jams), it has a bigger medplat , so it should be good for bigger game than deer easily. My mold actually drops 277gr finished boolits. I have a bunch of canister powder loads for it,but have not tried them.
If any of you have done work with it I would sure like to hear about it.
So please post. :Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
The heavy weight bullets that I know of are the 300gr., the 310gr.,the 320gr., the 325 gr., the 350gr., the 370 gr. & the 400gr.

There may be others, if there are would you please post a reply about them.

I have managed to acquire a Lee WFN 310 gr. mold. Mine drops boolits that actually weight 325gs. lubed & GC'ed. It's shape makes me wounder if feeding/jam problems will occur.
This 310gr (325 gr.) along with the 265 gr. R.D. (277GR) are the 2 I would like to try next.
I do have some loads published by RANCH DOG & some of the manuals.
But am interested in using WC 860 which of course not listed.
:Fire::Fire:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I was hoping that some of you would give your experience with loading the 265gr, RANCH DOG bullet, or a bullet of about 277grs. in weight in the 444 marlin lever action.:Fire::Fire:

[MT Gianni]

Boom Boom, you might start a new thread on the heavies to get more responses.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Well I waited hoping for input on the 265 RD bullet & got none.:sad:

So does anyone have some input on the Lee 310gr. gc. bollit?
Or how about a WFN g.c bollit of 325 grs.:Fire::Fire: