I need help with my lead 9mm loads

[greyling22]

So I've been fighting with my 9mm for a couple years now and decided I would toss this before the experts. I'm just about out of ideas. I've been reloading with lead for 45, 357 and 30 carbine without issue, but 9 is key-holing and leading a lot.

gun: 9mm witness elite match. I slugged the bore and as I rotated the bullet through the calipers, the bore slugged out at .355 except for one part that was .356. (that might have been an error on my part though. it was my first bore slugging)

Mold: lee 124 grn 6 cavity mold that is dropping .358 very consistently.

lead: wheel weights with just a tad of linotype tossed in. I've got a lee hardness tester on the way.

Lube: lee alox tumble lube. coated pretty well.

Powders: At one time or another I've tried V3n37, red dot, #5, hs-6, titegroup, w231, n320. 3n37 seemed to give the best results in terms of accuracy and keyholing.

I clean the barrel out between different loads. I test in batches of 20. I started out at recommended loads and have gradually been working down in power.

My most recent, and lowest power loads yet were:
2.9grn of titegroup (925fps on the chrono) - leading and 2 keyhole out of 20
3.4grn of w231 (950 fpson chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20
5.25grn HS-6 (1025 on the chrono) - leading and 3 KH out of 20

Leading was fairly evenly distributed along the whole length of the barrel. They all cycled the action, but I can't go much lighter and still retain function.

Thinking maybe I was using a light load under too hard a bullet and failing to get obduration, I tried 3.7grn titegroup with a 80% lead 20% wheel weight and got 10 out of 10 keyhole. 3.7grn using a 50/50 gave me 4 of 10 keyhole.

I tried some .356 purchased lead bullets (advertised BHN 15) that did not keyhole, nor lead as much, but still left noticeable leading after 20 rounds of each:
3.8 grn titegroup
4grn w231
5.6grn HS-6
5.5grn #5
most of the leading was back by the chamber.

Is my bullet just too soft? I hate to use up my 30 carbine earmarked linotype on 9mm. I know 9mm is a fairly high pressure round, but I hear people reporting success with lead bullets made from wheel weights. Anyone have any great and brilliant thoughts?

PS: I also tried some of my .358 125grn LRN bullets for my 357 in the 9mm. They work great in my reduced power 357 loads but still leaded badly in the 9. they are about 50%ww and 50% lead.

PPS: mods, if I have misposted this please move to the appropriate section.

[runfiverun]

try the 358 dropped from the mold size.
in your regular alloy.
i am thinking you are reducing the boolits size in your loading process.
sometimes these auto pistols have square throats that just go right into rifling,and this causes some problems.

[Alchemist]

Have you pulled the boolit from a loaded round and then measured it? A lot of discussion on the 9mm has centered around the cartridge case actually squeezing the boolit smaller in the case. Some have reported better results by expanding the case with an expander a thou or two bigger. The round may look a little swollen around the boolit, but it may work better if it will still chamber okay.

Another thought I had was lube....Tumble lubing with LLA works well for a lot of guys. But you may have better luck with something else. Experiment a little with other lubes.

The other thing I noticed in your post was working powder charges down.....it should go the other way around. Start at recommended starting loads and work up.

Good luck and report back.

[moptop]

but 9 is key-holing and leading a lot.


How does that pistol do with regular ball or HP's? If it still keyholes you might have a barrel crown problem. I also load cast RN for 9mm and, yes, it can be a pain. My Browning Hi-Power hates anything smaller than a .357" boolet. I've had my best luck with a .358" 158 grn RN over 3.5grns of Bullseye.... the same boolet I use for .38 special loads. Weird, I know, but they work great in that pistol, very accurate. Now even with the large boolet I do still get some leading but nothing that I would call a big problem. I also use a 124grn LRN but I have to Beagle the mould to get the diameter up a few thous' to .358" and at that it's not as accurate as the 158grn LRN load.

I what reading I've done about this, the general consensis is that 9mm can be tricky to load when trying to use lead boolets. Leading is usually the biggest issue but I just can't remember reading or hearing any problems with keyholeing specifically related to using lead slugs.

[delt167502]

What bullet style are you casting ? I tried the truncated cone bb and got the same thing out of a cz,a glock and out of a beretta. I gave up and went with a round nose flat base,no more problems. It not like I just started casting.I started casting in 1958. so if someone has a answer, Please let us know.
I did try diff dia.356,357 358 it did'nt make it work

[greyling22]

I'm using the the 124grn truncated cone microgroove bullet.

I pulled a loaded round apart and it was still .358 diameter bullet. I gave up on the FCD a while back.

Ball or HP? you mean store bought bullets?! I can't afford those things :) I did run a few through. didn't notice any keyholing, and if it was just a crown issue I still have the leading issue to deal with. It kind of looks like the bullets are just stripping out on the way down the barrel. Alchemist, I disagree, if the I'm getting lead and stripping at and below starting charge with all powders, going up really shouldn't be the solution, but just for grins, I did load some bullets up with #5, HS-6, and titegroup with a charge halfway between starting and max loads. It was a disaster. 10 rounds of each that completely leaded the barrel end to end and all keyholed.

Also, my cartridge length is right at 1 inch, because that is where the bullet looks right when seated. Is it possible the bullet is seated out too far from the lands and that is causing my problem?

[popper]

Clip or stick WW? You could oven HT a few and see if hardness matters. OAL is good if it feeds OK.

[greyling22]

clip on wheel weights, dropped immediately into a bucket of water.

[popper]

So they should be in the 18 BHN range. I don't load 9mm anymore. Used MBC and had a little chamber leading like you. I load 40SW which isn't that much diff than 9mm, with 175 TC and SWC with the Lee grooves. I use mid to high loads with HP-38. I started with 50/50 #2/Pb then cut that with another 50% Pb. I get no leading or keyholing. You could oven HT a few and air cool to soften and see if it gets better. My PERSONAL opinion of the Lee grooves is they don't give enough material to hold the rifling, in the 40. I may cut out a couple of grooves and see if it shoots better. I do remember posts on THR about problem weights in 9mm, either 124 or 140? don't remember which. I think it was the heavies with slow twist. Hope that helps.

[The Amateur]

I fixed this same problem by modding (search for my post) my expander die and "Leementing" the mold. (Dropped average size is now .3585") The brass was squeezing the boolits below .356", horrible leading. I shoot Lee TL356-124-2R, 4gr. Universal and Fed primers. For boolits, I cast WW with a little 60/40 solder for mold fill out and water drop them. I can now hold a 1.5-2" group from my wife's compact (1.75" barrel) at 7-10 yards.
This is more accurate then most "factory" ammo from the same pistol. (4-6" groups, no kidding)

[The Amateur]

Assuming you use Lee dies, the expander die doesn't go to full seating depth. Only enough to bell the mouth.
The mod is listed here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124464&page=1

Using an "M" die is a good idea... Also, ordering the .38 expander plug and a spacer would be an easy fix as the original author did. I have a lathe so I just trimmed mine back a little cuz I'm cheap:-)

[greyling22]

I"ll looking further into the case swagging aspect. I pulled apart several rounds and couldn't really tell that I was getting swagging, but I'll try anything at this point. Looking at the modded expander link, what are the parts I have drawn arrow to? I pulled my expander plugs out of my 357 and my 9mm die, and I see the principle behind adding the pvc, but I can't figure the mystery parts. http://i47.tinypic.com/20kswsh.jpg

My hardness test on my ingot came out at BHN 14. When I cast I added just a bit of linotype and water quenched them so I assume they are a bit harder than 14.

[runfiverun]

thats the part that the powder drops through.

[greyling22]

this? http://i47.tinypic.com/wjb5om.jpg

I always thought it was permanently attached and a universal drop tube, actuated by the expander plug.

[runfiverun]

since i ripped my lee auto press off the bench [lliterally,well more like kicked it actually] long ago and fixed it with a 4 lb hammer.
i am not that familiar with the parts.
i figured those were the internals to the powder through die.
i use a different approach and use stuff meant for the 38 special.
i modified my powder drop tube [on a grinder first then polished it up in a drill with emery cloth then 1,000 ,then 2,000 grit wet dry sand paper] from a 9mm makarov one i had.

[FergusonTO35]

The problem I've always had with my Lee 9mm expander is that it shakes the whole workbench violently when the plug is pulled out on the downstroke. I use the universal expander die now which works perfectly. It also seems to create a more gradual flare to the case mouth.

[greyling22]

well I made some new loads using the 38 expander plug. Before crimping the bullet could fairly easily be pushed to the bottom of the case. I added just enough crimp to hold it securely. Tried them this morning: no keyholing, but I was still leading pretty bad. chamber to muzzle visible leading after 30 rounds of 2.9grn titegroup moving 950 fps.

here are some pictures of the barrel rifling after I cleaned it some. http://imgur.com/a/7w7gV it's not perfectly clean, but you can see the rifling better now. It's a little on the shallow side, but it should be working right?

[Cherokee]

The bullet should be held by neck tension, the crimp should really only remove the flare put on for seating the bullet. I use the RCBS 9mm expander die. Sounds like you have over expanded the case. My bullets are cast from 3% tin, 3% antimony and sized .356 for my 9mm's & Super 38 @ 13 bhn per Lee tester; I go 1000 or so rounds between cleanings. I push my loads over 1,050 fps. Every time I have had keyholing (other cartridges), increasing the velocity eliminated it. You know, it just may be that your barrel will not shoot cast bullets w/o leading. One thing I have done to picky rifle barrels is use JB Bore Paste and really cleaned the barrel, it helped. Just some randon thoughts that might help you.

[FergusonTO35]

Mebbe this is just internet lore, but I've read in a couple of places that some European pistols (usually HK) have a bore which tapers down in size from chamber to muzzle. Perhaps this is going on here?

[jblee10]

I use the expander from a Hornady 357 die ( actually a 357 max, mag, 38 special die). My die expander will actually turn down far enough to expand and bell 9mm brass. I load for a CZ and use .358 bullets and it works will for me. No leading.

[MtGun44]

This may help.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737

Not a fan of TL designs in this caliber, very many have difficulty with high
intensity cartridges and TL. TL seems more reliable for moderate cartridges like .38 Spl
and .45 ACP.

Bill

[MT Gianni]

The Lee TL 124 gr TC was my first pistol mold. The 2nd best day was when I bought it, the best was when I got rid of it. Sorry but I would toss the mold and go to conventional lubeing with the 9mm. That might mean pan lube if you don't have a lubesizer.
I don't care for the accuracy of measuring with calipers but I assume that you measured your slug and cast, sized boolits with the same tool?

[greyling22]

yes I did. I can dig out the mic and reslug and remeasure everything.

[captaint]

To me, it sounds like you're on the right track except for the TL style mold and the tumble lube. I'm not a fan of either. So, try a conventional loob gruve mold and some better lube. Do read the sticky authored by mt Gun44. Excellent info there. You shouldn't need harder boolits. If you can find a mold to drop the boolits at .358, all the better. Keep us posted on progress. enjoy Mike

[MtGun44]

+1 on using a mic. You need best accy here and calipers are not always up to it.

Pan lubed Lee 356-120-TC at .358 with NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue
will have a very high probablity of sucess in most 9mms.

Bill

[greyling22]

I found a local caster and decided to give his stuff a try. I tried a sampling of his stuff sized to .357 (110, 115, 125, and 147 grn) http://www.mastercraftbullets.com/semiauto.html

I loaded with start loads of WSF from the hogdon website. THey worked pretty well. pretty tight groups and significantly reduced leading. My gun has shallow rifling, so I thought the extra bearing surface of the 147's might help the bullet grab the rifling better, but I didn't notice any leading difference between the tested bullets.

So I am encouraged. I have made some forward progress! I guess I should try some .358 sized bullets and see if I can get the last of the leading to go away?

[runfiverun]

yes.....

[MtGun44]

Better lube. conventional Lee 120 TC with NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue.

Bill

[greyling22]

those mastercraft ones has blue lube.

[MtGun44]

Is it soft or hard? Nearly all commercial cast have what I call "crayola lube" which is very hard
and IME a fairly marginal lube, but can work OK. Not as good as the soft lubes, IME, but the
shipping and storage plus possible hot weather issues for the commercial guys means that
they use the hard lubes almost exclusively.

Soft and sticky seems to be best, altho the hard ones CAN work, no doubt about it.

Bill

[Recluse]

• That Lee TL124RN is junk. Pure junk. Advertise it on Ebay as a customized vintage specialty mold and you can probably get enough to buy yourself a really good mold with a boolit design that will operate infinitely better.

• Noticing that you seem to be working your powder charges downward rather than upward. The 9mm needs some pressure, even moreso to obturate. If you're not getting obturation in a 9mm, then you're getting leading--and that is virtually guaranteed.

• I like tumble-lubing, but I do not like it for 9mm. Just don't.

• I've given up on lead and 9mm. Just flat given up. It ain't worth the hassle or headaches. I have a j-word load that outperforms every single factory 9mm round I've ever shot, including the LE issue stuff.

:coffee:

[max it]

I am by no means an expert;
in fact i just got this from the grand poobah
keyholing is due to not enough powder.

[Balta]

Your gun-Tanfoglio have polygonal rifled barrel and twist rate thats not some common,i think 1x7..Other guys in europe have problems to make lead boolits work in this gun .
Larger weight and harder boolit shod help...

[Balta]

And yes, tumble lubing and alox will not work...

[greyling22]

well, .358 bullets did not help at all. they may have leaded worse than .357's.

An elite match does not have poly rifling. it claims to, but it does not. At least mine does not. However, the rifling is pretty shallow.

[greyling22]

ok, so to update, I took some of my .358 sized bullets (regular bullets, not tumble lube design), loaded them, pulled them and measured them with a micrometer. They measured .356-.357, but mostly .356x. (my bore slugged out .355) So it looks like I am getting swagged down in the case. (I am not using the fcd) So I guess I need a bigger expander, and my experiments using the 357 expander plug didn't bear fruit. So do I need a lyman M at this point? also, can I run a lyman M in conjunction with/before or after my lee powder through expander die? (after I would guess)

[Jal5]

Have you tried an expander for 38 S&W? That one will work in Lee die sets for 9mm and won't swage down the boolit.

[Harter66]

Ok I'm the only guy that the 356-124 TLTC works for I guess. Mine does drop at 360. Loads as cast over 3.8 Unique w/Darrs lube tweaked for my desert environ. I use a 38/357 expander in my RCBS carb dies. The FEG has a short throat the TC has to seat at the case mouth no crimp. It shoots typically 4" 25yd groups.

At 1st I had bad leading, much like you describe. Copper was my problem. About an her in an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner for the leading,before I "found"0000 steel wool,did the trick and lifted the copper too I guess. Anyway copper may well be the leading issue.

[greyling22]

nope. just the 357 plug, and I only had limited success modding that. Does the 38sw plug require a mod or does it just drop right in?

also, I've never run a copper bullet through the gun, however it was used. That was 10k rounds ago though. I do scrub the lead out with a copper chore boy pad wrapped around a brush. would that leave copper deposits?

[Harter66]

The 38 S&W aka Colt New Police is larger as it was a transition cartridge w/bbls to 363 .

I'd say clean it good and try a copper solvent. I know that "fixed"leading in 1 rifle and my 9mm . I've found that some times just changing solvents is like starting from scratch on cleaning. It can't hurt anything and it looks/sounds like you've tried most of the "tricks". W/this post I think I'm going to run some barns copper solvent through that 40 before I try the cast in it tomorrow.

[chutesnreloads]

Greyling,your issues sound almost the same as mine when I first came here for help.My 9mm is a CZ-75 which is VERY similair to yours.With all the tips here I managed to get rid of the keyholing...mostly...(still get holes you can tell bullet didn't hit square with the paper)..and the leading is not really an issue ...but never had accuracy I was even remotely pleased with.The pistol shoots the Berry's plated quite satisfactorily and they're not TOO expensive.While I havn't given up on cast in this gun completely...it's become a much less frustrating distraction.Because of this site,I've found I have other firearms that handle cast very pleasingly and have even started casting them myself.Something else to think about.

[deltaenterprizes]

Try a 147 gr RN

[ironhead7544]

I found a lead bullet type that works fairly well in most 9mms. Tried a lot of bullets but none really worked. At a gun show a dealer had some 160 gr 38 Super bullets at a good price. It seems they are not popular and you can find them on sale. Bought them cheap. Looked for load data and found some for 158 gr bullets with AA#2. Loaded some up to match the pistols (G17) chamber and magazine. Used the Lee Factory Crimp die as some cases will bulge a little due to the long bullet. Started at 3.0 AA#2 and worked up until 100% function. Shot into 3 inches at 25 yards. Clean the lead every 100 rounds. Used this load in a large number of pistols, carbines and a few SMGs. Worked fine in all of them. Very mild recoil and drops the cases at your feet, even with the SMG.

Never chronoed the load but have a chrono now so will test it.

It seems the longer bearing surface helps accuracy. No keyholing.

One of my older Lyman manuals has data for a 158 gr SWC. Went up to 1050 fps with Unique.