Oversize bullets?

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've read through all of the forums here and haven't seen a thread that addresses this topic, so I thought I'd post my question here -

I've noticed a distinct liking to extra-large size bullet moulds here in the group buy section. Most are around .002"-.003" larger than the normal largest sizing diameter. For example - Boomer's custom Lee 6-cav version of the Lyman 429640, which should cast up in a Lyman mould around .430"-.431", depending on your alloy. He is ordering them at around .434", and a TON of people are "piling on" to this group buy (and I'm extrememly tempted, as I'd LOVE to have a 6-cav. mould for this discontinued mould).

My primary concern is the size-to diameter. I notice a lot of the smart folks here mention they're getting this bullet for their Rugers (either RH, SBH, etc.), and for Marlin rifles. Well, I'm all over the Marlin rifle thing, but I shoot S&W revolvers... As I said in my introduction thread, I've been casting for over 25 years and ran my own bullet business for a couple years (Ballisti-Cast and Magma equipment). I've never satisfactorily been able to size a bullet down more than .002" without distortion of the lube grooves/driving bands and/or destroying the concentricity of the bullets.

In addition, I've slugged the throats of my revolvers, and have tried larger-than-standard sizing before, and in my rifles, I've gotten problems with chambering and in the revolvers, I've seen no benefit to sizing larger than the throat size. I'm guessing Rugers have larger-than-normal chamber throats, which is why people want these .434" 44 boolits, but how do you guys deal with chambering in the Marlins with these big boolits?

I would like to get this bullet so I can size it to either .431" or .430", which, ideally would mean it should cast up to no more than .432" as-cast diameter. I don't see how I can acheive .431" with a .434" bullet without sizing it to a point of distorting it.

Am I missing something here?

(I'm actually too late for this group buy, but I think I can get a line on one, if I'm lucky, and if someone can enlighten me...)

:castmine:

[357maximum]

I have great luck with rounds that look like a snake ate an egg, I size alot of my boolits with fire. I use the absolute fattest boolit I can get away with...it just plain works......YMMV of course, but works for me.....I measure the case mouth after firing a round, and use that as my max boolit size, I have ZERO issues doing it this way.

If you have your heart set on a skinnier44 mould, pm me, I might have something for you.....I personally like em fat...boolits that is.

[454PB]

I agree, it's a balancing act. I like to size .001" to .002" over throat size, as long as it matches the gun and chambers freely. In most of my revolvers, it works fine, but in my F.A. 83 .454 Casull, it doesn't. This revolver is built so tightly that it won't accept anything over .452" As you said, sizing too much both damages the boolit, and is hard on lubrisizers. I use the Lee push through sizers for that duty when required.....I've broken two Lyman 450's doing it, and my Star just doesn't have the required leverage.

For my .30 caliber rifles, I've been able to use .311" with no problems. It all depends on the gun, and how many different guns you will be using the boolits in.

[9.3X62AL]

One route to "down-sizing" over-large boolits........taking the .434" as-cast examples you cite, first try would be through a .433"-.434" die, and you would fill the lube grooves. Next pass through a .431" die results in desired diameter and a LOT LESS stress on the 450. The lube filling the grooves in incompressible, and the lube grooves won't "disappear" during the second or third sizing step. I had to go this route with some Lee 44-200-FN castings intended for the 44-40.......433" outta the cavity, first trip through a .431" die, 2nd trip through a .429" die.

I'm not real big on ultra-oversized boolit either. I have a BisHawk in 45 Colt that had .449" throats and .452" grooves, commonly encountered a few years ago. I opened the throats to .453", and use .454" boolits with fine results. PERFECTION to me is about a .001" reduction each step--boolit to throat to groove diameter.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Al,
I've done that too, but it's not very efficient, and is still fraught with potential problems, enough so that I find myself slowing down even more....

I'm willing to do this kind of operation for a hundred or two bullets, but not for thousands.

For me, perfection is having the bullets .001" over sizing diameter or right at sizing diameter. So, for a 44 Mag bullet, I'd like them to cast .431"-.432" (max). Probably .431" is best, in case one has a tight throat revolver that needs to be sized down to .429"...

[9.3X62AL]

Yeah, 9mm and 44 can be all over the map in terms of critical diameters--that is likely the rationale behind the .434" boolit group buy.

[jonk]

Well, I notice that I can size and keep concentricity and integrity of lube grooves in a Lee die a lot better than in an RCBS lubrisizer. So I size and apply gas checks to desired diameter in the lee die, then finish in the lubrisizer. I occasionally spray some Dillon sizing lube into the die to account for unlubed sizing, btw.

[44man]

It sure depends on the gun as to what mold to buy. The S&W is actually tighter then the Freedom on the average. It would not pay to get such an oversize mold for it. I have fired many rounds from Freedoms and the cases would NOT go in a S&W afterwards. Cases fired in most SBH's will NOT fit in the SRH.
As some have said, .001" over throat works fine and even a little more is OK if the rounds chamber.
I don't like to size too much and if I can get away with it, I don't size at all. The oversize mold is great for those guns that need it because it is hard to get a factory mold large enough in most cases. If you don't need the extra size, save your money.

[Bass Ackward]

Well I got a Marlin that just loves a particular design at .435 with a .4305 bore. Same gun likes other designs right at .431 or she will lead up the wazoo. The .435 is a wide drive band Keith too by the way.

Basically, I am a 44 kinda guy. I have sizers in 5 tenths increments from .4285 right on up to about .433 and then I have one .435. I have multiple 44s and every one likes something different. I have line bored guns to taylor throated guns to standard factory's. Different bullet designs work better at different diameters from even the same guns. One Redhawk with .432 throats actually prefers most wider drive band designs to be .0005 undersize "for the bore". But it likes that same .435 Keith bullet as long as you size it down to .4295 too. Over .4295 and she leads up the wazoo no matter what lube or how hard you go.

So bottom line is that some loads in some guns are .002 over my throat diameter and some are .0025 under my throat diameter and that is a single gun. Find a pattern there why don't ya. :grin: Just depends.

As to sizing, I lube before sizing in lubrisizers and then size in nose first setups and there is no deformation of anything from .006 on down. Soft bullets or hard.

Sizing quality or results depends totally on how the sizing is done.

[Ricochet]

I tend to dislike way oversized boolits. I've got a whole bunch of ruined 7.62x54R cases with buckled necks from seating Fat .30s into insufficiently expanded necks. I've got a busted loading bench that I did while trying to run 8mm Maximum boolits through a .323" Lee die to seat checks, before I understood the true necessity of using a lube to size boolits. As for the throwaway remark that "you can always size 'em down, but you can't size 'em up," the problem is that you can't practically size down the bore riding section of rifle boolits, and the boolit designers in the Group Buy section tend to be fat happy on those, too. I think for most purposes in most guns the standard dimensions will work out, but only measuring YOUR GUN by bore and chamber slugging or casting will tell for sure.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The beauty of the group buy system is that you can put out a feeler on exactly what you want and see if there are enough guys out there also so inclined.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I have no experience with moulds ordered deliberately larger than "normal" sizing diameter, but it sounds like a good idea to me. YMMV, but my experience has been that Lyman moulds run from specified diameter to as much as .003" over. NEI and Lee moulds that I have cast very close to expected diameters. RCBS seems to specialize in moulds that are marginally fat enough, though they are high quality moulds. I have two RCBS .44 moulds, 240 GC and 250 K. Both cast .4305", which is the groove diameter of my Marlin Cowboy, and .0005" larger than the throats of my S&W 629. The S&W is very accurate and the Marlin so-so.
I wouldn't mind trying something a little fatter. As far as distortion with excessive sizing goes, I have several favorite Lyman moulds that cast .314" and size them down to .312" or .310" for some rifles. Accuracy is very good and there is no visible distortion.

[Boomer Mikey]

The main reason why all my 44 cal group buys are at 0.434" is because there are a bunch of 44 Mag Rossi's out there with 0.433" groove diameter bores and 444 Marlins tend to be in the 0.432" - 0.433" grove diameter range. The original Lyman 429640 bullet had marginal lube capacity for long guns but it shoots excellent groups in my S&W 629 DX Classic.

What's special for me is the 434640-PB Plain base version, this was never a catalog item.

like Bass Ackward, I also have found that sizing my 44 and 45 RNFP's nose first has eliminated many problems with concentricity and nose first in SAECO dies produces bullets as good as they get. I use a die body in a reloading press made to fit my SAECO dies and use them as push through sizers then seat gas checks and lube in another operation. This is nice if you water quench your bullets you can size them nose first and store them dry until you want to use them then seat gas checks and lube using a 0.001" larger die to avoid work softening.

Boomer :Fire:

[lovedogs]

I must wonder whether alloys and type of lube/size dies makes a difference. Among my toys are three .44 mags. The bbls. measure .429, .4305, and .4315. I use Lyman #2 for all three and size them all to .430 in a Saeco sizer and use Larsen's 50/50 lube. All are loaded as hot as I care to load them. I get no leading to speak of and all shoot quite well. The .429 (T/C) shoots in 1 1/4 in. @ 100 yds., the .4305 (Ruger BH) shoots about 2 to 2 1/2 in. @ 50 yds., and the .4315 (new Marlin CB) shoots groups of an even 2 in. @ 100 yds. My .44 mould (Saeco) drops bullets out at .432 and I get no distortion by sizing down to .430. I'm happy.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Wow, Mike, that's a great-sounding set-up with your Saeco sizers in your press. I'm betting that it's pretty dang fast, too... That would make up a lot of the frustration of sizing in two stages - from 434 to 432, and then from 432 to 431 or 430...

If'n you wind up with an extra of the GC version of that bullet let me know, and I'll send you a bank check.

[Junior1942]

. . . . I don't see how I can acheive .431" with a .434" bullet without sizing it to a point of distorting it.

Am I missing something here?This photo shows Before & After Squeezing of a Lyman 323471. Before = left; After = right. It started as .323" diameter and fully lubed with NRA formula Alox. I liberally lubed it with Lee Liquid Alox over its original lube and pushed it, still wet with LLA, through a Lee .314" die reamed to .3155".

As you can see there's no groove distortion in these bullets squeezed down from .323" to .3155". That's .0075" squeeze-down. The .3155" bullet is, however, now .030" longer than the .323" bullet. Look closely at the photo and you can tell that the bullet on the right is slightly longer.

This required more than a slight effort on the press handle, but the effort wasn't what I would call hard. I think the key is (1) the Before lube grooves must be filled with lube; and (2) they must be wet with LLA when pushed through the Lee die.

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/photos/mn07.jpg

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I was slow to catch on about that lubing part, but you MUST do that. Even dipping the boolits in water right before sizing makes a HUGE difference! Using water or soapy water is a good way to do it if you plan to heat treat after sizing, because many other lubes are messy to heat in your oven and will get you in trouble with your wife. Removing them can be a problem. Soapy water is a good solution and rinses off easily. For heavy duty sizing like the above, though, you need serious lubrication.

[AlaskaMike]

I'm having problems with the large bullets dropped from my group buy mould too. I've been using a .430 sizer die in my RCBS lube-a-matic for my other .44 bullets, and naturally that just about destroys this bullet. Unfortunately the only bigger dies I can see from Lyman or RCBS are .431, and then they jump to .439.

Ricochet, do you think if I tried wetting my bullets with soapy water prior to running them through my lube-a-matic, that the lube would stay in the grooves? I'm wondering if the wet and soapy lube groove would prevent the lube from staying where it should.

Junior, can you describe how you reamed out a Lee sizing die? Knowing that the Lee dies being the push-through design, is this something I could try on a .431 Lyman or RCBS die?

Mike

[Boomer Mikey]

I'm having problems with the large bullets dropped from my group buy mould too. I've been using a .430 sizer die in my RCBS lube-a-matic for my other .44 bullets, and naturally that just about destroys this bullet. Unfortunately the only bigger dies I can see from Lyman or RCBS are .431, and then they jump to .439.

I guess I can apply the gas checks by hand and pan lube, but I'd really rather not do that. Anyone have any other ideas?

Mike

What size do you need Mike?

You can order oversize dies from Buffalo Arms: http://www.buffaloarms.com/

Stillwell tool and Die: http://www.sizingdie.com/index.htm

Ranchdog will be selling oversize Lee push through dies soon too: http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/

Buckshot can open up an existing die for you too... he does excellent work.

I ordered a 0.434" die from Buffalo Arms for my oversize Rossi M92's and 444 Marlin and use a 0.431" die for the rest of my 44's that I opened up 0.0005" with some silicon carbide abrasive paper wrapped on a wooden dowel in my lathe to get 0.432" bullets for my revolvers . I like SAECO dies because they have a longer taper that produces better bullets with less distortion for me but you could add a taper to any die too (Buckshot.)

Another easy way to lube bullets for sizing are spray on case lubes or a spritz of WD40. Soapy water would work fine but I don't like water around my loading bench.

Another tip... polish the inside of your sizing dies with some FLITZ polish on a bore mop chucked in an electric drill... bullets "fly" through a sizing die this smooth and when this is done to full length cartridge sizing dies; sizing cases is a breeze with less case lube.

Boomer :Fire:

[Ricochet]

I think the soapy water would keep the lube from sticking in the grooves as you suggest.

I think base first lubrisizers have several serious disadvantages. The only advantage they have is being able to squeeze semisolid lubricants directly into the grooves, which is a very handy thing. So I see them as lubricators primarily, not sizers. What a hassle to have to have nose punches matching the bullet shape, and they have more opportunities to deform the bullet in sizing than nose first pushing through a one-way die.

What I'd suggest trying is soaping them up, sizing them in a Lee die to the proper size, rinsing and drying them, then lubing them in the lubrisizer. Might just work. A bit of extra effort, but not too bad.

I'll have to give some thought to bullet lubricating devices that don't do the sizing...

[beagle]

Interesting thread here. I beleive all of this got started back when the Rugers came out with oversize cambers and the majority of the production moulds ran right at .429". The .429 was fine for the Smiths but left something to be desired for the Rugers.

That's when we started stuff like oversize moulds.....up to .434s in the .44 Mags. Then, as many folks didn't want to lay out the bucks for a custom mould, we started messing with stuff like "beagling" and learned a bit more.

Then, Marlin came along with its Cowboy .38-55 which was a goat roping and needed big bullets....380s as opposed to the old .376s we'd used for years.

By this time, we were really getting into it and started getting good results in the .45/70 with .459 and .460 bullets. Most of Lyman's only ran .457-458 unless you were lucky and got a big one.

You may ask, why didn't Lyman and the rest of the custom makers make them big? Because some guy named Happy Pope that did some very good shooting back when said that cast bullets shot better when cast at the right diameter.

What does all of this mean? It means that we're learning and things change and nothing is "written". It also means that we've learned a lot in the last 10 yrears about maybe oversize bullets seal the bore better, beagling, nose first sizing and opening bullet diameters by lathe boring. IT's been definitely worth the stuggle.

In diameter, bigger is definitely better./beagle

[Junior1942]

Junior, can you describe how you reamed out a Lee sizing die?Buckshot has instructions on www.castpics.net The only things I did differently is I chucked my dowel in my drill press, and I used dry medium grit emery cloth.


Knowing that the Lee dies being the push-through design, is this something I could try on a .431 Lyman or RCBS die? Only if you want to break your sizer-lubricator. A Lee push-through die uses your regular reloading press. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't use any reloading press but one made of iron.

[Boomer Mikey]

Interesting thread here. I beleive all of this got started back when the Rugers came out with oversize cambers and the majority of the production moulds ran right at .429". The .429 was fine for the Smiths but left something to be desired for the Rugers.

That's when we started stuff like oversize moulds.....up to .434s in the .44 Mags. Then, as many folks didn't want to lay out the bucks for a custom mould, we started messing with stuff like "beagling" and learned a bit more.

What does all of this mean? It means that we're learning and things change and nothing is "written". It also means that we've learned a lot in the last 10 yrears about maybe oversize bullets seal the bore better, beagling, nose first sizing and opening bullet diameters by lathe boring. IT's been definitely worth the stuggle.

In diameter, bigger is definitely better./beagle

Good points Beagle!

I believe quality of firearms in the past was also a factor in mold design for the 44's. Continued pressure of legal departments to make firearms safer from a legal standpoint with oversize chambers and groove diameters to control pressures with factory ammunition in addition to controlling costs by using shipments of of oversize barrels has resulted in the need for oversize 44 molds.

Modern manufacturing is a crap shoot with guns made in so many nations with varying degrees of manufacturing tolerances above SAAMI minimum chamber specifications and reloading die manufacturing companies making dies that size cases below SAAMI minimum chamber specifications. It's no wonder novices find it difficult to obain success using normal cast bullet reloading procedures in your run of the mill production firearm.

357maximums post is correct for any firearm. Shoot full power loads in 5 cases. Take a tapered punch that will fit the case mouth and bump the case against the punch to remove any crimp left in the case and measure the inside diameter of the case with a dial caliper in all 5 cases ( 6 cases in revolvers). The average diameter is the size you should be sizing your cast bullets to.

In other words, put the largest diameter bullet in the case that will chamber reliabily. I prefer to be a little on the tight side of chambering and use a profile crimp or taper crimp die to make loads chamber reliabily.

The final sizing die is your barrel, it's condition greatly affects the sizing process. Barrels with constrictions at the chamber end will size bullets smaller than bore groove size and cause leading. This can be overcome in barrels with minor constrictions and variations by using harder (heat treating, alloying) and larger bullets. When bullets are run through a sizing die (including your barrel) there will be some spring back.... harder, larger diameter bullets spring back more than softer, smaller diameter bullets in addition to obturation of the bullets base due to the pressures and heat placed upon it by burning powder.

The only reason I size cast bullets is to get them small enough to chamber.

Boomer :Fire:

[AlaskaMike]

This is great stuff! Thanks very much for the tips and pointers!

Mike

[MakeMineA10mm]

I concur with AlaskaMike. Thanks to all for such great explanations. (Wasn't a bad first question for a newbie, eh? [smilie=1: )

I'm fully willing to try this. All of my past attempts at sizing down more than .002" were with Lyman 450 sizers, and all of them created distortion. (Excellent post above why the base-first sizers like Lyman and RCBS aren't the greatest designs in the world...) Seating a gas check, sizing the bullet, inserting lube, all simultaneously, not to mention frequently (at these large sizing steps) using so much pressure as to distort (or at least leave a ring) the nose of the bullet from the top-punch, has me convinced to switch to a Star sizer. (I'm still using my Lyman 450, because I've scaled back from commercial-style production and am getting back into hand-casting and, by extension, hand-sizing.)

I've used a Magma sizer (which is also a nose-first sizer) and I love everything about that machine, except it's lousy thermastat. After reading about Felix lube, I'm thinking of getting it out of storage and trying using it with Felix lube that will be soft enough to not need the heating element at all... That would be slick and fast, and since it's a nose-first sizer, would handle this sizing issue nicely!

[leftiye]

Ricochet
I took a bunch of .459 RCBS .45-300 RFNs down to .454 a while back. The first time, I used your technique with soap and water ( I put in a lot of soap). The second time I used case lube and removed the lube with Laquer thinner so I could heat treat them. I have a .454 die that's brand new and the boolits stuck so bad that I had to get a hammer (plastic) to drive them back out of the die. FWIW, the soap actually is a better lubricant.

[hunter64]

One of the web sites , can't remember which one (LA Shooting or something like that) says that over time the bullets shrink from there as cast size to as much as 2 thou under depending on alloy used. Has anyone actually seen if this is true and how long does it take to be totally shrunk down? You could cast up some oversize bullets and leave them for the time period and then size them but then again they would be hard and I have always sized right after they have cooled down from the pot.

[felix]

This concept is true, but depends on the alloy, heat treatment, and caliber. Smaller the caliber (diameter), the less the movement of the boolit diameter over time. If you have STRONG equipment and are working with large calibers, it is always best to size boolits at their hardest state and then shoot within a day if the boolits were sized more than a thousand. General rule only. Keep in mind that soft and long boolits do not size straight. But, the question always remains, is the boolit accurate enough for your purpose with your current practices? If so, you have your answer. ... felix

[Ricochet]

Leftiye, what made me think of using soapy water is recalling George Frost mentioning in his book Ammunition Making that soapy water is the drawing lubricant used by the ammunition factories for drawing brass in forming cartridge cases and primer cups. That would imply to me that it would also make a pretty good case sizing lubricant. No real need to remove it, if it's lightly soapy it just dries out, but it's easily rinsed off.

I'd accidentally discovered that plain water worked because when I was sizing freshly quenched, still damp boolits I was having little trouble sizing them, but after they'd sat for a while I was having terrible problems with them sticking. I thought it was due to the alloy hardening, but later I learned that it was because they were drying out, and if I dipped them in water they got easy to size again. Much easier if the water was soapy.

I've got a big batch of NuJudge Fat .30 semispitzers in the basement that I lubed with soapy water for sizing, quickly rinsed, oven treated and quenched. For some reason, the light residue of the soap (which happened to be Murphy's Oil Soap) made the Hornady gas checks come out a golden brass color after the oven treatment. Looks cool.

[BAGTIC]

[QUOTE=Ricochet;176515]I tend to dislike way oversized boolits. I've got a whole bunch of ruined 7.62x54R cases with buckled necks from seating Fat .30s into insufficiently expanded necks.

You said it yourself. The problem was NOT with the oversized bullet. It was with the undersized neck. A cast bullet is not 'oversized' until it gets so big that a round will not chamber.

[Ricochet]

That's true. I don't have a good way of sizing and expanding for the oversized bullets without custom dies, though. Look at that new fatter .30 group buy going on new for a .318" bullet. That's a J-bore 8mm. No standard die set will handle that.

[Leftoverdj]

One recent development is that Lee is now cutting the moulds to specs, not cutting the cavity to produce a bullet of the specced size. This means that the moulds HAVE to be specced large. There has always been a problem with Lee moulds casting at nominal or smaller. The 413-200-WC group buy moulds came in casting at .412 which suited most of us fine, but any smaller would have been a disaster.