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Cadillo
06-20-2012, 06:46 PM
I have a question for some of you who might cast and load for a Colt SAA in .45 Colt.

I finally got a GOOD pin gauge set, and decided to use it to tailor my loads to their specific revolvers starting with what I knew would be one of the more problematic of the lot. My pistol has no significant thread choke as the largest pin that will enter the muzzle will fall freely through the forcing cone and into the receiver and then out. Good so far!

As the gun has always leaded a bit, I knew that the throats were probably on the large side. The throats all gauge at .455". I'm really not too concerned with groove diameter, as I will size my bullets to match or slightly exceed the throat diameters, which are farly consistent at .455". Now to my question.

Has any of you found your cylinder throats to be this large, and if so, what results if any did you have in sizing your bullets large enough to fit or even size a little passing through the throats? As I have and will always load for this gun at the low side of midrange of listed Colt data, I feel that shooting a .455" bullet into a bore that will most likely be near .451 to .4515" should not cause me to run into excessive pressure problems, but just wanted to know what some of you might have learned from similar experiences.

Just came upon with another question. Because I have a large amnount of monotype, which I alloy with my wheelweights at a ratio of 5/1 WW to Mono, most of my bullets are quite hard, which helps me due to their falling from the moulds a little larger than the softer alloys I've tried, probably due at least in part to my being able to cast at a lower temperature. Might I be better served by softening the alloy a bit for this application, assuming I can get my bullets to still drop large enough to size at .455" or .4555"?

Thanks!

shooter93
06-20-2012, 07:12 PM
I shoot Colt saa's more than any other gun I have. I have been lucky that most of mine have matching throats and bores. Colt had problems in different time periods and generations not just the older ones. Ones that werre mis-matched like yours (i had no pin guages at the time) I cast and sized a bullet that would just slip fit from the front of the cylinder but would not drop through from the rear. Loading Colt loads I've never had pressure problems in any of them. In 45 Colt I use a 250 grain Keith with 8 to 8.5 grains Unique with no troubles. I loaded 9 grains for quite some time too with no troubles. I would use a softer bullet as you thought and get a mold cut for that alloy if necessary or maybe Beagle the one you have.

geargnasher
06-20-2012, 07:31 PM
How big is the ID of a case fired in your pistol? Check all six chambers, and remove all traces of crimp before measuring.

Gear

Echo
06-20-2012, 07:44 PM
As an aside, I use mono & WW in a 1:7 ratio, with 1% additional Sn - and I think you could probably cut your alloy 50/50 with either WW's or pure Pb, and add some (~1%) Sn and have a really good alloy for most any pistol around.

felix
06-20-2012, 07:59 PM
Remember also, that 455 and 451 sizing is a nit compared to that of 225 and 224. We are talking computation of area differences here (not diameters), such that any realization of any force curve pushing boolit expansion/contraction is less damaging to the boolit when shooting the larger diameters. So, bigger the "caliber", the boolit can be smaller than the cylinder holes than with a smaller caliber boolit not fitting its cylinder for the same accuracy. Of course, the alloy and acceleration curve must be matched with any boolit diameter and velocity attempted. ... felix

ktw
06-20-2012, 10:34 PM
I feel that shooting a .455" bullet into a bore that will most likely be near .451 to .4515" should not cause me to run into excessive pressure problems, but just wanted to know what some of you might have learned from similar experiences.

I used to have a Ruger Blackhawk with 4545 throats, 4515 groove and 4500 bore. I shot 454 or 455 cast through it without any issues, although it did make finding a suitable mold more difficult than it had to be.

I have a Winchester 94 trapper in 45 colt with a large chamber. It shoots jacketed (4515-452) well and gas checked cast in the 452-454 range reasonably well but it won't shoot plain based cast for beans unless I size in the .456-.457 range. These fit in fireformed brass, shoot very well, chamber normally and show no signs of increased pressure.

I recall reading years go someone's second hand, redneck range report (over on Taffin's Sixguns?) where they (don't try this at home) took a Ruger BH 45 Colt and a Ruger BH 44 Mag, swapped out the cylinders and proceeded to shoot cast from them (45 in a 429 bore and vice versa). Neither showed signs of the excess pressure or shot particularly well but the 45 in a 44 shot better than 44 in a 45. Third hand internet story for whatever that is worth.

-ktw

Cadillo
06-20-2012, 11:20 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. Next trip to the range I'll trim back the mouths on six fired cases from six chambers and measure the ID's with crimp removed. Once I get that done, I'll ask what I will be able to do with that information, which at this point I'm not able to visualize.

I at least foresee a larger cavity mould dedicated to this gun.

MtGun44
06-21-2012, 12:15 AM
That info will let you know what diameter boolit you will safely 'let go of'. If the fired case
is .454 or larger, you will be OK with .455 boolits. The case springs back a tad after expanding
to release the boolit.

Bill

geargnasher
06-21-2012, 12:39 AM
Bill followed me there. The reason I mentioned that is that most people overlook chamber dimensions when building up a revolver load. If you have grossly oversized chamber throats, you might also have grossly oversized chambers too, or not. I think it's important to at least know what you have to work with.

Most of my .45 Colt Rugers will easily and safely fire .457" boolits, but some will not. Your gun might like .452" boolits, it might like .455" boolits or it might like .456" boolits, you'll just have to try it and see. It seems like every time we try to "define" boolit fit in a revolver, yet another pistol shows up that turns it all on it's ear. One thing that seems to be fairly constant, though, is using a boolit big enough to have reasonably snug chamber clearance as well as fitting the throat closely, so the boolit gets a straight start into the throat. If you have a huge space around the brass in the chamber, things can get wonky. Like I said, most people don't think much about this, but I've found it can be pretty important.

Just for fun, I took my Ruger NV that has really oversized chambers, but .4545" throats, and shot it at 100 yards. I used two samples of ammo, both the same except one used fireformed brass and was only sized where the brass and boolit contacted. The other load was full-length sized. The "neck" sized brass took two wraps of Scotch tape around the "neck" area to fit the chamber closely. Both loads utilized .4525" boolits with long noses to "pilot" in the throats. I shot about a 2' pattern with the FL sized brass, and kept two cylinder fulls of the other load on a piece of typing paper. This same pistol shoots Lee 457-340-RF boolits very well at .457" and seated to crimp over the front band.

Gear

gray wolf
06-21-2012, 12:20 PM
GEAR
Some interesting points you bring out about only neck sizing the brass.
Can it be done for the 44 mag also ??
My chambers are rather large ( I think ) I size my bullets to .432 in order to fit the throats.
If I put a loaded round in the chamber and press on the back of the case, I can still wiggle the nose of the bullet a little at the front of the cylinder.
So that tells me that when a loaded round is in the firing position, The bullet is resting in the bottom of the cylinder.
Wouldn't this type of condition be less conducive to a straight start ?
Or is the back of the throat bigger than the front ?
How does one get the case and or the bullet to seat firmly in the chamber so there is no movement at the front. ( hope I said that correctly )
Sorry for the small thread drift here, but I think it's important to know these things, It seems relevant to all revolver ammo.
Thank you

Sam

44man
06-21-2012, 12:58 PM
One thing confuses me and that is dropping a pin gauge in the bore. Might be OK for see any choke but barrels are not barrels, etc. A Colt groove to groove can be anywhere from .451" to .454".
Throats can't be said they are oversize unless groove dimensions are found by slugging.
There is an outside chance that the throats are perfect for the barrel, slim, maybe but sure worth a good check.
Next is finding large boolits. Custom mold or outfits like Beartooth offer some larger sizes.
I see no reason why .454" boolit would not shoot great if .455" are hard to find. There is no reason on earth to go over throat size.

44man
06-21-2012, 01:16 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. Next trip to the range I'll trim back the mouths on six fired cases from six chambers and measure the ID's with crimp removed. Once I get that done, I'll ask what I will be able to do with that information, which at this point I'm not able to visualize.

I at least foresee a larger cavity mould dedicated to this gun.
If you need to cut down brass because fired cases still have some crimp left, you already have a problem.
Here is what you should have. These are fired .45 cases with new boolits slipped in, easy fit.
Both of these boolits are .4535".

geargnasher
06-21-2012, 01:41 PM
No need to cut it down, just run the fired case into the belling die and remover any trace of crimp, then check with pin gauges, inside micrometer, or boolits.

Sam, what I'm talking about here is "only a problem if it is". The OP was thinking he needs a really big boolit to match his oversized cylinder throats. I wanted him to check and make certain his chambers could handle .455" boolits before making any recommendations, although most .45 Colt chambers are WAY oversized.

Here's the deal: .45 Colt chambers are spec'd to .480". Most groove dimensions are in the .450-.454" arena. Say your gun is .451" in the grooves and you shoot .452" boolits in it. That's 28 thousandths of space left to fill. Measure the thickness of a .45 Colt case and you'll find most of them about .011" or so, so there's .006" slop. If the cartridge lies on the bottom of the chamber due to gravity, and remains so after the primer hit, that boolit could be getting quite a crooked start. Now say you want to shoot .455" boolits in another gun, and the chambers are .478" like my Uberti Open Tops are. Now you're getting close to a perfect fit. Much closer and there could be a binding condition.

I tend to think that revolver brass expands and centers itself before the boolit gets moving, but I've also had pretty solid accuracy improvements by "neck sizing" revolver brass for oversized .38 and .45 Colt chambers, particularly in rifles and carbines.

Gear

geargnasher
06-21-2012, 01:46 PM
One more thing on the neck sizing, if you happen to load on a turret press or progressive and prime on the press, a Lee carbide sizing die can be used to neck size and still decap if you'll take the decapping stem out of a Lee universal decapping die and swap it out. It's a longer rod and will adjust down far enough to knock out the primer while only sizing far enough down to hold the boolit.


Gear

gray wolf
06-21-2012, 02:09 PM
OK--thank you,
I guess I was chasing another dog. I was wondering why I size my bullets to a nice snug throat fit when a loaded round is short of the throat.
I would think it a nice fit if the front band snugged up in the throat. that would center the bullet--Yes ?
But is seems the front bands have to make a jump to the throat.
Some 44 429421 bullets have a front band that is .425 and some are full size.
I would have to seat my bullets way out of the case to be snug in the throat.
So if the case is not centered the front band smashes into the throat.
This seems to be a ***** why aren't the throats set back a little, the whole thing seems a little self defeating.
But then again I am probly missing some thing.

geargnasher
06-21-2012, 02:15 PM
Sam, this is why Elmer insisted on a wide, full-diameter front band on his SWC designs. Problem is, it won't work with all guns and still be able to crimp in the groove. Sounds like you could use a boolit with a longer front bearing surface. But if what you have works, why worry?

Gear

gray wolf
06-21-2012, 03:11 PM
Yes that is correct,
my bullets seem to be fine so far. But I find the info most educating.
I have seen some round nose flat point bullets that size way up the body of the bullet. they seem to hold the correct size to just before the nose tapers.
Lyman 429667 and Saeco #431, 430, and 432 I like this design for a bullet.
I think some of the H&G mold also had bullets like this.
Seems the problem is the more bullet sticks out the case, the less is in the case,
unless the bullet weight goes up. I have some R N F P that are 250 grains and I can achieve what we are talking about--problem is it puts less bullet in the case.
Don't know how the bullet would react when fired.

44man
06-21-2012, 03:48 PM
Gear is correct. Yet a boolit can still align at the start of the throats the same as at the cone if the nose shape is good. There is still a taper there. Good support is always best but I found the most trouble with a Keith is at the forcing cone. The little edge must be tough enough so it does not wipe on one side as it tries to align the cylinder. The nose ogive itself does not touch a thing. The solution has always been to expand the ogive to eliminate the edge, the edge does absolutely nothing on game or in the gun, it was made to punch a round hole in paper. I feel there was never any reason at all for a semi wad cutter. The nose was added to a wad cutter to extend distance while retaining a close range target boolit. The meplat still does all the work when hunting. The semi wad cutter can actually go to pot over distance faster then any WFN. Once it slows, turbulence across the edge can increase as the pressure wave turns towards the side of the boolit.
The Keith always LOOKED good when loaded and I shot a million of them but I have learned more since.

44man
06-21-2012, 04:29 PM
I would like to go back to crimp left on fired brass. Measure the ID at the crimp, now you can add .001" to .002" for brass rebound from the chamber. Is the measurement smaller then the boolit? The smaller size is how much the brass has sized or scraped off lead. The crimp DOES NOT FULLY OPEN AND SPRING BACK. The boolit should fully iron off all crimp.
Another myth is the pressure when the charge is lit fully expands the brass all the way to the end before the boolit leaves and flattens the crimp to the chamber walls. Do you walk on water?
It doesn't happen, it can't happen and your boolit will be made smaller then the wonderful thing you worked so hard to make.
Fix it by making the boolit hard enough to iron brass.
Seems we use steel to expand cases, would you use a lead expander.
Another myth is a boolit too hard will skid rifling. NO it does not or all jacketed would skid. Too soft skids. That relates to a soft boolit made to expand to obturate but if it skids, it will open gas channels so the gun leads up. Slump is also a bad word.

gray wolf
06-21-2012, 04:58 PM
Thank you for the answer to my question--------
As for the statements about the crimp, I have seen you say this many times and you never seem to change your opinion.
Well I respect your opinion + it makes sense when you think about it.
I still can't get my crimp to open up as I no it should.
I have some Water dropped WW + PB that I will try again.

sffar
06-21-2012, 05:25 PM
I've got a New Vaquero with pretty tight .451 throats and grooves at .450 (cylinders .480, lands .442). Loaded some MP 270 SAA bullets that were given to me, which I think I sized at .451, but were probably a tad over. Anyway, mostly the rounds chambered, but some wouldn't set in all the way (this using trimmed, min oal brass) and I could only tell when the cylinder bound while loading. My point being if you cut the fit margins too thin the weapon might get unreliable.
Sam

gray wolf
06-21-2012, 06:11 PM
I sure agree, always a margin for safety and function.

felix
06-21-2012, 06:14 PM
Cases should last forever. A 45 Colt gun done right for a change. ... felix

geargnasher
06-21-2012, 07:33 PM
I've been sorely tempted to buy a .44 Magnum cylinder for my New Vaquero and have it bored with a .45 Colt reamer that had the flutes ground down to about .476".

Gear

ktw
06-21-2012, 07:48 PM
I've been sorely tempted to buy a .44 Magnum cylinder for my New Vaquero and have it bored with a .45 Colt reamer that had the flutes ground down to about .476".

Not being equipped or capable of doing that kind of work myself, I found it cheaper and much quicker to sell the Blackhawk and buy a Freedom Arms than to farm out the work necessary to give the Blackhawk tight chamber dimensions.

-ktw

sffar
06-21-2012, 09:33 PM
I was pleased when I measured it up. Lucked out. Of course, I still find stuff to change about it, and am displeased with the moulds I have that drop bigger than I'd like. Can't win. [smilie=b:
Sam

Cadillo
06-21-2012, 10:27 PM
One thing confuses me and that is dropping a pin gauge in the bore. Might be OK for see any choke but barrels are not barrels, etc. A Colt groove to groove can be anywhere from .451" to .454".
Throats can't be said they are oversize unless groove dimensions are found by slugging.
There is an outside chance that the throats are perfect for the barrel, slim, maybe but sure worth a good check.
Next is finding large boolits. Custom mold or outfits like Beartooth offer some larger sizes.
I see no reason why .454" boolit would not shoot great if .455" are hard to find. There is no reason on earth to go over throat size.

I'm not sure if you are not understanding me, or I'm not understanding you, so I'll assume that I'm the one not getting it and try to explain. I dropped a pin into the barrel to determine whether there was a choke point at the point that it threads into the receiver. I'm aware that this tells me nothing at all about the groove diameter, which is of secondary importance to me as compared to the cylinder throat diameters. Had I found a choke point at any part of the barrel, I would know that I would eventually approach that issue with fire lapping.

Based on my understanding of how these things are supposed to work, bullets should be sized to fit the throats, which is what I aspire to do here. As the throats on this gun will all swallow a .455 pin, a .454 bullet would most likely work a lot better than one of .452 or even .453, but as I don't buy cast bullets since I began casting, and as I do not have a mould that will cast a .45 Colt bullet over about .4525, a new or good used mould that will drop bullets at or about .456 is what I intend to get and use, so as to size them to .455.

I appreciate your response to my questions!

44man
06-22-2012, 07:56 AM
Thank you for the answer to my question--------
As for the statements about the crimp, I have seen you say this many times and you never seem to change your opinion.
Well I respect your opinion + it makes sense when you think about it.
I still can't get my crimp to open up as I no it should.
I have some Water dropped WW + PB that I will try again.
That's true. I just had the results show up with my found boolits from under the bench. They were way too soft at 10 BHN and I would shoot a nice group with a flier or two but not real bad. The next day I sprayed the target, then I would shoot another decent group.
I had just tumbled the brass and I looked down in the container of brass on the floor and I could see crimp left. Over half had crimp, almost as much as I started with. That is when I checked the BHN.
All that is needed is to toughen the boolits so they iron the crimp. No need to go super hard, just enough.
I have a new batch to test that has reached 20 BHN in a few days.
I do get stubborn but it is for a reason. I have no other explanation for spraying a target like a shotgun.

44man
06-22-2012, 09:34 AM
I'm not sure if you are not understanding me, or I'm not understanding you, so I'll assume that I'm the one not getting it and try to explain. I dropped a pin into the barrel to determine whether there was a choke point at the point that it threads into the receiver. I'm aware that this tells me nothing at all about the groove diameter, which is of secondary importance to me as compared to the cylinder throat diameters. Had I found a choke point at any part of the barrel, I would know that I would eventually approach that issue with fire lapping.

Based on my understanding of how these things are supposed to work, bullets should be sized to fit the throats, which is what I aspire to do here. As the throats on this gun will all swallow a .455 pin, a .454 bullet would most likely work a lot better than one of .452 or even .453, but as I don't buy cast bullets since I began casting, and as I do not have a mould that will cast a .45 Colt bullet over about .4525, a new or good used mould that will drop bullets at or about .456 is what I intend to get and use, so as to size them to .455.

I appreciate your response to my questions!
No problem, you will be OK. I like to know groove size though. You might have better then you guess at.
I was trying to say that you CAN shoot boolits under throat as long as they are a little over groove. Then to go over throat will still shoot but you will size the boolit and maybe remove grease grooves and lube before entering the bore.
The idea is to never do more damage to the boolit then you do in a size die. Over sizing is always damage even if it is beyond the throats and in the rifling. To take a .455" boolit to .451" at the cone and bore will also wipe off GG's and you will run out of lube.
I make my boolits with .025" GG's but a TL boolit can have only .010".
Now add in any sizing/scraping from a crimp that does not fully open. Use the wrong alloy and you might shoot a much smaller boolit right out of the brass and have to depend on slump for fit. What happens if the crimp left makes the boolt smaller then groove?
I sound crazy to many fellas. The revolver needs a balance that I want you to think about. Just a balance, not going crazy with theories or what each of us says because none is written in stone. I give ideas as do all others here for you to figure out.
I only relate things I found that failed for me and things that worked. You are the final determination for your gun.
Yet you can shoot stuff that should never work. I shoot .430" boolits from .4324" throats and a .430" groove all the time. I also shoot many .432" boolits and darned if one is better then the other.
It is THE OTHER STUFF you need to think on. Take everything you read here and sit and stare at your bench, leave the press alone. Imagine the boolit and what happens. Sort things out and try them.
I want to show what way under throat can do. This boolit is .430" from a .430" groove, .4324" throat at 200 yards. I was doing a drop test and had the 3 shots in 1-5/16", the 50 yard group was 3/4" with the RD 265 gr.
I want you to see that it is you, not one thing you feel is important and that it is a balance of all things. You are looking for one answer to solve all.
The best cast boolit shooters on earth are right here and I feel you are only looking at one thing, hoping for the best.

ElDorado
06-22-2012, 12:55 PM
Cadillo –

I’ll tell you right now that I don’t have the answer to your question, but I do have a Colt SAA in 45 Colt that has the same problem. My throats are .456”, miked with a cerrosafe casting. I don’t have the figure in front of me, but I believe I have a slug from the barrel that is .451”.

When I first bought the gun (new), I shot a bunch of Winchester Silver-tips through it because they shot so well. I used those empty cases to load up some Lyman 452423 cast in air cooled COWW sized to .452”. The accuracy of the cast loads started off bad and just got worse.

I checked the barrel and there was the worst leading I’d ever seen just beyond the forcing cone. Even a Lewis Lead remover couldn’t get all of the lead out. I ended up buying a Foul-out to get it clean.

I don’t own pin gauges, so I haven’t checked for a constriction at the barrel threads, but I know that is a possible cause for the leading. I also feel that there may have been some fouling from the Silver-Tips that could have contributed to the leading. The Silver-Tips have an aluminum jacket and I have no idea how that mixes in with cast bullet dogma, but it’s probably not good and it’s surely no help.

The path I have chosen for now is to shoot a bunch of copper jacketed bullets through it in hopes to break in the barrel a bit, and to thoroughly clean the copper out before shooting lead again. I have also purchased a couple of 454 moulds (which I have not yet used) to follow the “size your boolit to the throat” axiom as best as I can. One of the moulds is a gas check model, so I’ll try that, too.

If you are still looking for a .456” mould, Lee makes a 220 grain number for the Ruger Old Army.
http://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-456-220-1r.html
I have this mould for my ROA, but I haven’t tried it in the Colt, yet. I may do it someday.

So anyhow, you’re not alone in this, Cadillo. My problem is similar and I’ve laid out what my next steps are. I’m no expert and I’m just trying a few things that I think might help. Unfortunately (or fortunately, actually) I’m one of those guys with more guns and moulds than time, so I’m easily distracted from loading projects and it takes me a while to get to the bottom of things.

By the way, can you tell me where you got the pin gauges? I’m interested in getting some.

Jeff

Cadillo
06-22-2012, 08:44 PM
Cadillo –

I’ll tell you right now that I don’t have the answer to your question, but I do have a Colt SAA in 45 Colt that has the same problem. My throats are .456”, miked with a cerrosafe casting. I don’t have the figure in front of me, but I believe I have a slug from the barrel that is .451”.

When I first bought the gun (new), I shot a bunch of Winchester Silver-tips through it because they shot so well. I used those empty cases to load up some Lyman 452423 cast in air cooled COWW sized to .452”. The accuracy of the cast loads started off bad and just got worse.

I checked the barrel and there was the worst leading I’d ever seen just beyond the forcing cone. Even a Lewis Lead remover couldn’t get all of the lead out. I ended up buying a Foul-out to get it clean.

I don’t own pin gauges, so I haven’t checked for a constriction at the barrel threads, but I know that is a possible cause for the leading. I also feel that there may have been some fouling from the Silver-Tips that could have contributed to the leading. The Silver-Tips have an aluminum jacket and I have no idea how that mixes in with cast bullet dogma, but it’s probably not good and it’s surely no help.

The path I have chosen for now is to shoot a bunch of copper jacketed bullets through it in hopes to break in the barrel a bit, and to thoroughly clean the copper out before shooting lead again. I have also purchased a couple of 454 moulds (which I have not yet used) to follow the “size your boolit to the throat” axiom as best as I can. One of the moulds is a gas check model, so I’ll try that, too.

If you are still looking for a .456” mould, Lee makes a 220 grain number for the Ruger Old Army.
http://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-456-220-1r.html
I have this mould for my ROA, but I haven’t tried it in the Colt, yet. I may do it someday.

So anyhow, you’re not alone in this, Cadillo. My problem is similar and I’ve laid out what my next steps are. I’m no expert and I’m just trying a few things that I think might help. Unfortunately (or fortunately, actually) I’m one of those guys with more guns and moulds than time, so I’m easily distracted from loading projects and it takes me a while to get to the bottom of things.

By the way, can you tell me where you got the pin gauges? I’m interested in getting some.

Jeff

I have a couple of options, one of which is that I have a couple of NEW second generation cylinders in .357 mag and .38 spcl. Maybe I can trade one for a good condition third generation cylinder in like caliber that I can have bored and fitted to my 3rd generation SAA .45 Colt. I'll just take my time and study the various routes I can take.

Regarding pin gauges, I have no good answer. I bought one set from Grizzly Tool Co.. They were badly out of spec, and after the most difficult and trying business transaction of my fifty-eight years on this planet, I finally got a refund for that junk.

I REALLY wanted a good set, so finally ordered a set from an outfit called Thread Check. They are nice, and I have yet to find a fault among the various 250 pcs of the set, though I have mic'd only a few. Those few have been spot on. The price though is steep. I paid $220.00 plus freight, which is a high tariff, but worth it to me, as I consider frustration and wear and tear on my **** to be worth a lot of money. I am very happy with my expensive but quality purchase, and have already used them to good effect.

I'm just learning that there are so many uses for the things. I should have bought these years ago, but just learned about them. Pin gauges and a mic are must have items for a caster and loader.

Too soon old, too late smart!

44man
06-23-2012, 07:32 AM
I tried the harder boolit yesterday and there was an improvement, groups rounded out and every load I tried shot the same. They equal the 320 LBT WLNGC.
I really should have made it with 2 GG's instead of one large one. Oh well, future boolit with a PB. I do not want to send for GC's! :violin:

EDK
06-23-2012, 12:50 PM
I've been sorely tempted to buy a .44 Magnum cylinder for my New Vaquero and have it bored with a .45 Colt reamer that had the flutes ground down to about .476".

Gear

I don't think NEW VAQUEROS come in 44 magnum, maybe 44 specials, BUT RUGER won't sell cylinders, barrels or main frames as parts IIRC. Again, IIRC, the cylinders in various calibers are also different lengths. I've bought several Orignal Size VAQUEROS in 357 for the base gun in other calibers in the future. BOWEN CLASSIC ARMS, ALPHA PRECISION and other big name gunsmiths offer custom cylinders, BUT they don't exactly give them away.

When S&W came out with the model 25-? in 45 LONG COLT, there was quite a bit of discussion and complaining about cylinder throats around .455/456 and barrels of .452 groove. The solution was a .454 boolit and relatively soft alloy and loads in the SAA pressure levels.

HANDLOADER has had some recent articles about chamber dimensions in 45 COLT and how to compensate. Editor Scovill is a 45 fancier.

It's a d*** poor day I don't learn something useful here or on the other sites that I frequent.

:redneck::cbpour::2gunsfiring_v1:

tchepone
06-23-2012, 10:02 PM
Pin/Plug Gauges are also available from the following vendor:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=616-8131&PMPXNO=951510

I have set of these "imported" gauges and find them to be very accurate. I haven't checked all of them, just the pistol calibers I use. My Mitutoyo micrometer is in full agreement with the diameter indicated on each gauge.
They were reviewed by Mike Venturino some time back in Handloader magazine.
The price has increased quite a lot since I purchased mine, about 5 years ago, but then what hasn't.

9.3X62AL
06-23-2012, 10:28 PM
My Bisley BH in 45 Colt came with VERY undersized throats, and wasn't much fun at the range--it was a One Bullet Wonder (#454490). After a few years of that drag, I borrowed one of the throat reamer kits and re-cut the throats to .4525" and polished them out to a true .453". (Grooves are .452", bore I haven't tried or can't recall). I size boolits to .454", and all designs now shoot from decently to EXTRAORDINARILY, plain base--bevel base--or gas checked. 200 grains to 325 grains.

The tungsten-carbide sizer die in my 45 Colt die set (RCBS) greatly over-reduced case diameters of my brass. (It is well-nigh perfect for 45 ACP. though). I swapped it for a steel sizer die, and life got a lot better all at once. No more partial-FL-sizing needed to save brass from over-working.