How Fast with Pure Lead

[beagle]

Now, this is not a noob question as I've been around the block a couple of times and to be truthfully, I don't have a clue. Hope you guys don't say old beagle has a loose screw.

I have a bunch of pure stuff...cable sheating, lead pipe, etc. that's accumulated over the years and I need to use it up being as WWs are hard to find nowadays.

I've shot swaged HB wadcutters before and they were pretty near pure....at least in the old days. I once had cardboard tubes of what looked like 358156 Lymans that were lubed and GC'd and were very soft. All of these shot well.

Now, here's where the difference comes in. Pat Marlin's PB GCs.

The only problem I have ever had with real soft bullets is leading when using fast burning powders.

Since I started messing with .35PB checks, I have elimated any leading at all in the 9mms I shoot and my .38s/.357s as well and some of that is pretty soft.

I'm thinking I can run a pure lead 158 grain SWC at 1,000 FPS out of a Super Blackhawk and a .38 Special case and get good accuracy with no or minimal leading. I'm gonna try anyway.

What say ye, the faithful? Opinions are welcome./beagle

[Jim]

What I've learned here is that fit is the king and lube is the queen. If you get that worked out, you should be able to accomplish what you're after.

[sqlbullet]

It is a symphony but as Jim says, fit and lube carry the melody. I think you should get there too. I would add that slow powders are going to be your friend in this endeavor.

[felix]

John, my sons Tommy and Nick could use some of that "pure" lead for BP guns: two 1861 Cabela Colt cappers and a Cabela long rifle flinter. Do we have truck service still running loose down the highways and byways? ... felix

[Cherokee]

Sounds like a plan, best way to find out is try a few - bet it works.

[John in WI]

I have been casting for my .38 (Lee 158 gr LSWC) out of pure lead (for my "social" load) and running it pretty fast. 900+ fps. It shoots straight, and the recovered boolits show very clear rifling marks so they aren't stripping out. They do lead a little bit, but my lube is a home-brew concoction of wax, toilet wax, STP and vaseline. An old timer I met at the range last weekend suggested either adding more STP and vaseline to soften it or as he put it "stick a crow bar in your wallet and buy some lube". Anyway, I love pure lead at these velocities. The split-tips I made, some of them open up to 3/4". Just amazing how malleable that stuff is.

[geargnasher]

Dang, John, that IS a heck of a question for an old hand! Thing is, like you, most of us probably haven't messed with it much. I did try pure lead in .38 wadcutter loads a few years ago, and I didn't have any luck at all using Liquid Alox, so I switched to Lyman NRA lube (what I used at the time) and with the right powder it fixed the leading, but never really fixed the accuracy.

Fit is King, Alloy/pressure curve balance is Queen, and Lube is a Jack in my book. That soft lead needs a GENTLE launch. I ended up using Unique and a loose wad of toilet paper on PB wadcutters, but I never got the accuracy I wanted. I think your PB Check idea will do wonders for accuracy with those, all I can tell you is it IS possible to get a pure lead .38 wadcutter going pretty fast without leading if you don't use fast powders.

It's quite possible to get a plain-based rifle boolit made of ACWW to 2K fps without leading, but the accuracy usually goes away LONG before reaching that speed, but a gas check restores the accuracy, so I think what you're talking about doing is similar, only at half the speed and with a much softer boolit.

By the way, I chrono'd those PB .35 Remington boolits you sent me (the Lyman 200-grainers) that shoot so dang well in my Marlin and 24.5 grains of RX 7 put them in the mid sixteen-hundreds.

FWIW,

Gear

[Chicken Thief]

I'm pushing 99%+ PB above 1400fps in original BP weapons with no issues at all!

[geargnasher]

You know, CT might just have the answer right there, use a .357 case full of BP, a little Emmert's (with lanolin added) over the cylinder face, and go have a ball!

Gear

[9.3X62AL]

I would use 357 Mag cases in a 357 Mag chamber, and load to varying pressures/velocities and see where things start getting drifty. Buckshot has run some pure lead wadcutters through revos, maybe he'll have some commentary.

This is a question I've had also, and may one day pursue the matter in detail. After all the loading I've done in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 10mm with plain-based boolits of 14-15 BHn, I'm prepared to believe that there is A LOT of "cheat" in the old formula of "BHN x 1,422 = pressure limit of plain-base alloy bullets", esp. when the dwell duration of that pressure impulse is as short as it is in a pistol barrel environment.

[geargnasher]

Al, I agree with your line of thinking fully. I think that rather shaky theory of pressure/bhn is pretty much out the window if you get your launch right. Pure lead can take a heck of a lot of pressure once it gets nicely engraved in the barrel, it's the "getting there" that's the rub. I've shot some pretty dang nice groups at 100 yards with a .44 Magnum using plain-based 16:1 and a stiff charge of 2400. Do the math on how many times THAT exceeds the yield strength of the alloy, IIRC it was around three times. With rifles I routinely shoot at peak pressures that are easily twice the strength of the alloy.

Gear

[fcvan]

Pure lead, good lube, corn meal filler. Worked great in my 1858 Remington copy with dead soft round ball and conicals. Lately I've been running the Lee 452-255 RF with 8.5 grains of Unique and 2CCs of corn meal filler. Shoots great from my Vaquero and H&R Classic Carbine. Leading was non exixtent, especially in the carbine. I am also waiting on my plain based check maker from Pat. For now the corn meal is checking the gas. Frank

[beagle]

The truck service has moved on to greener pastures. I miss it too./beagle


John, my sons Tommy and Nick could use some of that "pure" lead for BP guns: two 1861 Cabela Colt cappers and a Cabela long rifle flinter. Do we have truck service still running loose down the highways and byways? ... felix

[MtGun44]

I've run an 8 BHN 3458429 at full power with H110 in a .357 with good accy and no leading with
LBT soft blue in a 586. Same alloy and boolit works fine at about full power (5 gr of Unique) in a
a .38 Spl.

I think with good fit, good designs and the right powder (probably slow acceleration)
you will push them pretty fast. Please report on your results.

Bill

[beagle]

That ought to be a good shooting load in the .35 Rem. I've run 'em up to 1800 FPS and went no farther as I didn't need the velocity.

Yeah, I've run PB's bullets out of .38 cases in the .357 at over a thousand too but never with pure lead. I'll cut with some tin for better fillout and see what happens. For sure, a HP ought to open pretty well and I think that aluminum GC will bump up and seal pretty well. Fit's no problem. I can "beagle" a mould and run anything from .354" up through .3595" as I have a large selection of sizer sizes.

Kinda figured maybe someone on here had messed with real soft lead before and I could get some real answers and avoid mistakes./beagle


Dang, John, that IS a heck of a question for an old hand! Thing is, like you, most of us probably haven't messed with it much. I did try pure lead in .38 wadcutter loads a few years ago, and I didn't have any luck at all using Liquid Alox, so I switched to Lyman NRA lube (what I used at the time) and with the right powder it fixed the leading, but never really fixed the accuracy.

Fit is King, Alloy/pressure curve balance is Queen, and Lube is a Jack in my book. That soft lead needs a GENTLE launch. I ended up using Unique and a loose wad of toilet paper on PB wadcutters, but I never got the accuracy I wanted. I think your PB Check idea will do wonders for accuracy with those, all I can tell you is it IS possible to get a pure lead .38 wadcutter going pretty fast without leading if you don't use fast powders.

It's quite possible to get a plain-based rifle boolit made of ACWW to 2K fps without leading, but the accuracy usually goes away LONG before reaching that speed, but a gas check restores the accuracy, so I think what you're talking about doing is similar, only at half the speed and with a much softer boolit.

By the way, I chrono'd those PB .35 Remington boolits you sent me (the Lyman 200-grainers) that shoot so dang well in my Marlin and 24.5 grains of RX 7 put them in the mid sixteen-hundreds.

FWIW,

Gear

[303Guy]

Scrap lead pipe is not all that pure and it often comes with soldered joints which I add for the tin. The stuff is not all that soft and one can add copper to the tin rich solder before alloying. I'm using it in a rifle but the launch is quite gentle and I do get base feathering and cupping without precautions. The disclaimer is that I have not achieved bug hole groups and it is with paper patching.

[fecmech]

These were 358429 cast of pure lead out of a GP 100 at 1260 fps. Load was 14.9/820(slow lot matches 296) and shot into snow. As you can see they did not strip on the rifling although accuracy was zip due to blown bases. I shot a lot of BABore's hornaday "Clones' that were cast of pretty much pure lead last year for a fellow poster. They were shot in my Rossi rifle and were running 1100-1150 fps over 5.0-5.5/231, 4-4.5/BE and 5.0 Unique. Accuracy was 3-4 MOA@100 yds. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30281&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1299793381

[beagle]

Most of what I have is old lead pipe (no joints), X-ray room sheeting and cable sheathing without joints. It's pure as I can get./beagle


Scrap lead pipe is not all that pure and it often comes with soldered joints which I add for the tin. The stuff is not all that soft and one can add copper to the tin rich solder before alloying. I'm using it in a rifle but the launch is quite gentle and I do get base feathering and cupping without precautions. The disclaimer is that I have not achieved bug hole groups and it is with paper patching.

[beagle]

Interesting results. That's what I'm looking for...actual experiences. If I put one of Pat's PB GCs on a soft 358429, I'm thinking the accuracy will improve. That's my thoughts./beagle


These were 358429 cast of pure lead out of a GP 100 at 1260 fps. Load was 14.9/820(slow lot matches 296) and shot into snow. As you can see they did not strip on the rifling although accuracy was zip due to blown bases. I shot a lot of BABore's hornaday "Clones' that were cast of pretty much pure lead last year for a fellow poster. They were shot in my Rossi rifle and were running 1100-1150 fps over 5.0-5.5/231, 4-4.5/BE and 5.0 Unique. Accuracy was 3-4 MOA@100 yds. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30281&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1299793381

[UBER7MM]

Chicken Thief: I'm pushing 99%+ PB above 1400fps in original BP weapons with no issues at all!

Hvordan go det "Kylling Tyv"? Hvad våben har de riffel, pistol eller revolver? Jeg vil gerne skyde ren PB eller WW med gas check i en riffel. Hvad kaliber har de? Hvad pulver bruger de? Hvilken hastighed har dine kugler?

Tak før informationen,

[waksupi]

Hvordan go det "Kylling Tyv"? Hvad våben har de riffel, pistol eller revolver? Jeg vil gerne skyde ren PB eller WW med gas check i en riffel. Hvad kaliber har de? Hvad pulver bruger de? Hvilken hastighed har dine kugler?

Tak før informationen,

How go the "chicken thief"? What weapons has the rifle, pistol or revolver? I want to shoot pure PB or WW with gas check in a rifle. What caliber are they? What powder do they use? What speed are your balls?

Thanks before the information

[geargnasher]

You need to brush up on your conversational Danish, there, Beadmaker! :bigsmyl2:

Gear

[MT Gianni]

I have had good results casting a hb wc in 38 special . I load it between 2.7-3.0 gr BE.

[dromia]

"What speed are your balls?"

Is that some kind of Scandinavian salutation?

[fecmech]

"What speed are your balls?"

Is that some kind of Scandinavian salutation?

Thank you dromia, that really lightened up my morning!

[beagle]

I just rendered down a 5 gallon bucket of this stuff. It's pretty close to pure and soft. Some of it is cable sheathing and the remainder is old lead pipe....looks like 3/4" stuff and it's old./beagle


I have telephone cable sheathing and its far from pure. Years ago I got electrical cable sheathing from a power plant and would say it was dead soft, pure!

Way back when....my first revolver was a 44mag Virginian Dragoon. I reloaded Hornady swaged SWCs over not so mild charges of 4227 and got some leading. I think LLA might have solved that!

Mix your soft stuff with range lead or WW, add a little tin, and water drop them for a bit more hardness. It won't take a lot of anitmony to get 15bhn water dropped.