Kind of reverse of Basic Electrical help,please question.

[1911sw45]

I kind of have the reverse of the GFCI in the other thread. I live in a trailer which I wired the trailer hookup and meter and disconnect myself. I know it is grounded right. One 8' copper clad ground rod one foot from the service disconnect panel the full 8' + 1' in the ground then the other 8' from that one installed the same way. All hooked up with bare #4 copper wire. In KY red clay. That is not covered by any thing but the clay, nothing over it to keep any moister from getting around the ground rods.

What happens is I have a circuit that is ran from the master bath area GFCI to the second bath room 60' at the other end of the trailer. When it gets very dry during the summer months it trips the GFCI circuit with nothing else hooked in to the circuit. Try and reset the GFCI and it will trip instantly. Wait about 12 hours it will reset, then trips some time after that. When it gets very very dry later in the summer like during August you can't reset the GFCI circuit at all. At least till it rains good. Don't have any problem with that GFCI circuit at all when we are not dry, ie during the fall, spring or winter. It's now being doing this for 2 and half years. Its getting very aggravating to say.

I know it has to do with the ground rods being dry or at least that is what I think. But I have no idea how to correct this problem. What do you think?

Thank you,

Adam

[giz189]

First thing I would do is take a volt meter and check the ground rod to make sure it has no current. I have seen the siding on metal bldgs carry 120 volts. Stick red probe to ground rod
and black probe to the earth. If it is to dry, pour a little water on the earth. If you don't have current there, you might want to just run a little water on the ground rod when it is really dry. I am not a professional and I am sure I will get flamed for this. The main thing is to make sure there is no current on the ground rod before wetting it.

[Catshooter]

1911,

The way a GFCI works is it watches the neutral wire's amperage and compares it to the amperage of the hot wire. Normally there should be zero difference.

When the difference hits about five thousanths of one amp it will trip.

End of story. Your GFCI couldn't care less if you have a grounding system at all, let alone if it's too dry. It's functioning is in no real way related to the grounding system, you see?

I would say replace it as it sounds faulty. If you've done that and it didn't help, then somewhere either something plugged in or the conductors themselves are leaking and the GFCI is doing it's job of protecting you.

giz's advice will be of no benefit to you: no flame giz, you said it yourself you're not a pro. I am. 34 years in the trade. If nothing else a volt meter won't measure current. :)


Cat

[Ford SD]

Sounds like when the ground is too Dry the ground rod is not acting like a ground.

Use one of the voltage 3 plug testers you can buy to check outlets

Not sure how to fix it.

Pour a 5 gal bucket of water on the grounding rod every couple of days?

put another ground rod under a tree or in the shade where the ground stays damp ?

[Bob Krack]

Am I understanding you to say that you have two distinct ground rods?

If so, I would disconnect one of them. NEC absolutely forbids multiple grounding conductors.

No, the grounds are not usually or normally active participants in the circuit. I have seen multiple grounds cause "buzz" in TVs and radios.

Bob

[odfairfaxsub]

we use thousands of ground rods to ground stations for all the customers in our area. also thousands are used for airplane hangers. dang that was alot of cadwelding.

[sharps4590]

Bob, I'd like to see reference to the section in article 250 of NEC where it forbids multiple grounding electrodes. odfair, I understand exactly what you're talking about. One can, and often does, become weary of cadwelding grounding grids.

1911, Catshooter is absolutely correct. I'll second his advice. I have 36 years in the trade. Journeymans license in 1979 and Masters license in 1981.

It is a peculiar sounding problem the way you described it but there is something else going on other than dry rods. At 8 ft., if you drove them straight down, (NEC allows up to a 45 degree angle on driven electrodes), there should be some moisture down deep.

[DCM]

Giz189 has it right.

The NEC requires multiple grounding electrodes in MOST cases.
WI com 16 requires at least 2 ground rods as does the NEC if there is more than 25ohms resistance on any single ground rod.
The NEC requires grounding electrodes at each separate structure with only one exception.
All grounding electrodes are required to be bonded together to form a grounding electrode system per NEC 250.50.
A thorough review of article 250 section III, Soares book on grounding, NEC handbook, Mike Holts materials and a really good code class might help.

[Lloyd Smale]

I was a lineman all my life and have NEVER seen where multiple grounds rods hurt anything. We cant even hook up a service anymore unless it has at least 2 and my house has 5. My guess is you have a bad gfi and the rest of the symptoms and when your experiencing it is just couincidence. One possibility is that if your in an area with a lot of power lines is that you could have a stray voltage problem. In simple terms the grounds from all the power lines have put a current in your soil. It does happen. We had a underground submarine comunications system for a while here and it caused alot of problems and we had to install ground isolators on all the poles in that area. They acted like fuses but in oposite. When lightening would hit a pole it would trip the isolator and allow the ground to function like it should but in everyday use the neutral was isolated from ground in that area. Stray voltage can be a big problem for farmers and some even claim it effects the production of milk from there cows. It doesnt just happen where theres something odd like this underground instalation either. We had stray voltage complaints all the time in areas that did have it. thing is if you have no problems in your home you should be able to function just fine without any ground rods what so ever. Your neutral is grounded by the power companys system anyway. I would bet that somewhere you have a stray voltage problem. Either outside the home or something in the home is leaking amperage to ground and your gfi is reading it off of the neutral. This is all IF your gfi isnt bad to start with. First thing i would do is replace it. If it doesnt cure it contact your power company and tell them your getting shocks off things in your home and out buildings and they will probably come and figure it out for you for free.

[TJF1]

1911 chances are that you are losing your
ground. Probley a lose conction.
Terry

[Bob Krack]

Maybe I can get out of the yellow rain by saying that the National Electric Code forbids multiple grounds that are NOT bonded together and serving a single service.

If any of you want to fight, durn it, meet me out back in 5 minutes and if I am not there go right ahead and start without me.

Dad was a Master electrician as was his father. Lots of the NEC is plain common sense (if you can think like an electron).

I am NOT an electrician..... I tried to give a little light to a problem presented by a brother in arms, if ya will.

Chinese GFCIs and even some domestics are just junk. Valid issue to pursue. Mechanical ground is NOT NORMALLY a factor in residential wiring but cannot be totally disregarded.

Electrons just wanna "go home". Back to where they came from. If the neutral fails or has a problem that I do not know how to describe, the electrons will follow the mechanical ground as a round about way to "get home". Lots smarter people than most of us here put together still debate "electron flow vs hole flow".

If you have two mechanical grounds and the are NOT bonded together, and you touch a neutral of one and a neutral of the other the results are totally UN-predictable. Maybe no problem, maybe "Schummer hits the fan - oh dear"!

I am happy to leave this thread to those wiser and more educated than I.

Bob

[odfairfaxsub]

Maybe I can get out of the yellow rain by saying that the National Electric Code forbids multiple grounds that are NOT bonded together and serving a single service.


i have to competley agree with this one. if their not connected together those ground potentials are not the same potential. thankyou bob, this was really good advice. the worst thing you can create is differences in potential

[sharps4590]

Bob, I don't believe anyone was angry. I certainly wasn't. Just what you posted wasn't correct. Your clarification is.

[KYCaster]

Forgive me if this turns into a rant before I'm done.

I'm not an electrician, I'm a plumber (master's license since 1978). Before KY required licenses for electricians I did quite a bit of residential electric work, including numerous mobile home hookups. I don't consider myself an electrician.

The main problem here is "trailer" or manufactured housing if you want to be PC. That alone is not really a bad thing, but in order to find the source of problems like this you have to understand how the home is built.

I can pretty much guarantee that the two bath receptacles are not the only devices on the circuit you're having problems with. The hard part is identifying the other devices on the circuit so you can determine which of them is causing the problem.

The first place I'd check is the heat tape on the water supply. It's probably plugged into a receptacle that's protected by the GFCI you're having trouble with.

Next, I'd suspect a receptacle somewhere between the two baths that has a loose connection or the polarity reversed. Since you relate the problem to hot summer weather I'd start looking where you normally plug in a fan.

Now for the rant...............

Every residence in KY is required to have at least two plumbing inspections and two electrical inspections during construction.....a rough and a final. When the home is installed on a lot, the electric service, water supply and sewer system are inspected by your local plumbing and electric inspectors. The local inspectors have no authority to look at anything inside the home because it has already been inspected and approved during construction. In fact, they're forbidden to enter the home during their inspection visit.

So how does that work? KY law requires that the wiring and plumbing be installed by a licensed journeyman and supervised by a licensed master and inspected (at least twice) by an employee of the utility that provides service to the home or a contractor licensed by the state and approved by the utility.

So how does a manufacturer in Green Bay, WI manage to have that done for every one of the six or eight homes they finish EVERY DAY?

Simple really..........all those journeymen, masters and inspectors are employees of the manufacturer. They send them to Frankfort to take the tests....or if they want to cover the expenses KY will send someone to the manufacturer to administer the tests.

It would save everybody a lot of time and trouble if they'd let me inspect my own work.........well......everybody but the homeowner. ;)

Jerry

[Alvarez Kelly]

I am not an electrician. My "day job" is property maintenance. I have maintained the same properties for over 10 years now. I carry spare GFI's on my truck because they fail, often, and regularly... sometimes in very odd ways. Also, I quit buying certain brands, because they just wouldn't last...

For the price of a GFI, I would replace it with a good quality one. I would be willing to bet the problem will go away.

By the way, let us know how this shakes out. Good luck!

[Silver Eagle]

When the GFCI is tripping, I would go around the place and unplug or shut off at the breakers all of the power except for the circuit with the GFI on it. If the GFI still trips it is a problem with a device or in the GFI's circuit path. If it does not trip, start reconnecting things until it does. You may have a faulty device or circuit that is causing issues.
We had electrical issues (brownouts and light flickers) in our condo until a neighbor replaced a real old in wall air conditioner. Older AC's and large appliances are sometimes electrically noisy and can affect items on other circuits.
Also if any breaker or GFI is repeatedly tripped, replace it. They can get "extra sensitive" and start tripping at lower than rated levels.

I am NOT an electrician BTW.

Silver Eagle

[popper]

Hire an electrician that knows how to use a megger! Trailer (also called tornado magnet) wiring is notoriously hazardous. Worked as an electrician in a trailer factory a looong time ago. Multiple 'grounds' are allowed, when bonded together. GFI measures the current in the safety neutral, it does NOT compare with current in the hot line. NEC is an insurance fire and shock safety code. Not meaning to be rude, but you probably hooked up something wrong. Fix it before you burn the trailer down or get electrocuted. From a guy who got nailed by 900 volts, and Dad got to visit linemen's widows. Neither is fun.

[sharps4590]

KYcaster has a good point. I had a service call years and years ago on a mobile home that was tripping a breaker. Like to never found it and when I did it was the heat tape receptacle under the trailer.

[Bob Krack]

First off,
My apologies for my knee-jerk reaction to the corrections to my wording of the code.

I care a lot about all of you here and value your opinions and your knowledge.

The original post, Adam, could probably best be answered by making sure that the grounds were bonded together and then try substituting the GFCI with another.

Good luck Adam,

Bob

[OBIII]

If it was me, I would temporarily disconnect the feed to the back bathroom. If it still happens, it is something associated with the circuits connected directly to the GFI. And I agree, trailer wiring is a complete nightmare.

[1911sw45]

Ok where to start. First I meant, the 2 ground rods are bonded together. They are also drove straight down not at any angle. Second the wiring to the meter hook up and from there to the trailers Main was inspected and passed by the inspector. Third I have replaced the GFCI, found all wiring from that GFCI to the far bathroom which is dead ends at. The receptacle for the heat tape has been replaced, so has the outside receptacle. The trailer was built in 94' so no alum wire. Oh how I do know how they wire a trailer. For all the wiring I can see it all looks to be in good shape. It has tripped and will not come back on. We have not had any rain in over a week and half. We are in a Cat 1 drought right now, so we are very dry here. The GFCI is Levi-tron I believe.

Thanks,

Adam

[Alvarez Kelly]

Is the failure with the new GFI exactly the same as the failure with the old GFI?

I have had GFI's be "bad" right out of the box. The best ones I can find locally are Eagle brand. I'm not sure if they are available in your area.

[1911sw45]

Yes same type of failure as the old type. Like I said when there is plenty of moister in the ground I have no problems with this GFCI circuit. As of any type of fans or A/C's there is none on this circuit. The reason I really believe it has to do with the ground and being very dry is this. When it gets very dry my electric fencer quits working too. It's on another metered service not the same one as the trailer I live in.

Thanks,

Adam

[oneokie]

The reason I really believe it has to do with the ground and being very dry is this. When it gets very dry my electric fencer quits working too. It's on another metered service not the same one as the trailer I live in.

Thanks,

Adam

What is your soil type and soil profile?

[popper]

Inspector just checks for 'wired for code', usually just a visual inspection. I'm guessing you have a 2 wire main (120 volt)with NO hard wired ground (50's wiring from the pole). The safety and GND connection is made near the pole and depends on the earth for the safety ground. Yes, when the ground is dry the resistance of earth goes up and you get what you are seeing. You electric supplier may be able to get you a solution for this problem. If you have 220 service, it's usually split to power different utilities in the trailer. If you get the white and black crossed on anything, you end up with an unbalanced neutral and some funny things happen. I still recommend a licensed electrician solve your problem, insurance companies may not pay if they find YOU worked on it. I know it's a PITA, but that's the way it is.

[KYCaster]

Run the condensate drain from your AC unit onto the ground around your ground rods.

Jerry

[Bob Krack]

Run the condensate drain from your AC unit onto the ground around your ground rods.

Jerry

And maybe a little "grey water :-o :oops:"

Hehe.

Bob

[1911sw45]

Bob,

When I hooked up the sewer I thought about running the gray water separate from the sewer water. To save on the sepitank leech fields. But I just ran every thing together.

Adam

[firefly1957]

IF your well has metal pipe can you tie your ground rods to it? unless your well goes dry then you will always have a ground.

[Fredx10sen]

Some rock salt and water around the ground rods. :) Soak the ground well after mixing the rock salt into the soil. We have had grounding problems in certain areas of hard pan dirt here in Central Ca. and have brought up the conductive properties of the soil in this manner. We have to test all the new solar arrays and school installations that we do to insure a proper grounding system is in place. We use a megger to this and have to document it before final inspection. We have had to bring up the mineral content of the soil and this is just one of the ways. I have also done this to a ground plane antenna I used to have up when I was on the talky walky LOL. And yes I am a Journeyman Electrician here in Ca. :)

[Fredx10sen]

Inspector just checks for 'wired for code', usually just a visual inspection. I'm guessing you have a 2 wire main (120 volt)with NO hard wired ground (50's wiring from the pole). The safety and GND connection is made near the pole and depends on the earth for the safety ground. Yes, when the ground is dry the resistance of earth goes up and you get what you are seeing. You electric supplier may be able to get you a solution for this problem. If you have 220 service, it's usually split to power different utilities in the trailer. If you get the white and black crossed on anything, you end up with an unbalanced neutral and some funny things happen. I still recommend a licensed electrician solve your problem, insurance companies may not pay if they find YOU worked on it. I know it's a PITA, but that's the way it is.

1+ Exactly ;)

[GL49]

My best advice is to reread post #3 by Catshooter. You're grounding system, of course, should be functional year round, but during the summer it seems to not be doing the job of hiding a problem in your GFCI circuit, or another circuit in your residence. Somewhere you are leaking enough current into (or out of) the GFCI circuit to cause it to trip, or somewhere something in the circuit is miswired. You've checked that the grounding wire and neutral wire are not tied together anywhere in the GFCI circuit, correct?

[DCM]

Firefly has an excellent suggestion. If you have a metal well casing available I would use it.
Mine is connected to my grounding electrode system.
It is NEC compliant per 250.52(A)(1), 2008code since WI has not yet adopted a later version.
ONE listed connector is this one http://www.elecdirect.com/product/3b78f72b-7320-4cce-b7c0-c67c5fc90e92.aspx There are others.

It sounds as though you have soil that is highly resistive when dry.

Although GFCIs do fail occasionally most of the time the are just doing their job. Which is detecting leakage current.

[Catshooter]

1911,

It's time to hire a pro. Electricity is deadly stuff and not a good place to guess.

I hate electrical threads on gun boards as all the experts come out with all sorts of wild guesses and false data. Most will readily admit to not being an electrician but they'll still give out advice. Most of which, while well intentioned by good people, is still bad advice. I really should stay out of them. :)

Connecting your grounding system to a well casing can be interesting and something I would not do lightly. Can work. It can also become the best ground rod for the high voltage (power company's) circuit, which can bring all the faults in the circuit to your well casing. Is this what you really want?

I trouble shot a pool fence that was energised to almost 90 volts AC years ago. It was getting it's power from the nearby well casing that the owner had connected his grounding system to. He thought it'd be a good idea since he was a carpenter. Almost killed his wife, who is the one who discovered the ninety volts the hard way. When I pulled the ground wire off of the well casing it drew a six inch arc. God knows what the voltage was.

"Safety neutral." That'd be funny right there if it wasn't so serious. Despite what "popper" says, the GFCI does indeed work by comparing the neutral current to the hot current. He may be a saint in disguise, but he doesn't know the first thing about electricity.

Please go hire a pro and don't follow adivce here.


Cat