Are Zinc bullets an alternative

[Markbo]

As lead in wheel weights disappears the only ones available are the old recovered ones. All new wheel weights in my area have gone to zinc, iron and even aluminum. I predict within a year all the old/lead will be gone and I will have only what I have. Which is not near enough!

The thought has occurred to me... are zinc bullets doable? Is there any reason zinc - or some alloy using zinc wheelweights - can't be used? I can have a near limitless supply of zinc wheelweights after the lead is all gone. So is there a zinc recipe and what would be the restrictions, i.e. velocity, caliber, sizing, gas checks, etc.

I appreciate any experience from those that have already experimented.

[Jim]

..... I predict within a year all the old/lead will be gone and I will have only what I have.....

That's why people like "The Captain" and myself work hard to produce a good product at a fair price for booliteers to have a reliable source.

[RugerFan]

Some folks have been experimenting with casting zink (not me yet). Considering that the antis are trying to get bullets containing lead banned claiming environmental damage etc (hogwash, but there may be some success), it wouldn't be a bad idea to stock up on zink and start some casting/loading/shooting trials. Might as well have a contingency plan as lead supplies dwindle.

[wiljen]

Zinc is a bit harder (Pun intended) to work with as it has a higher melting point and equipment must be kept hotter to get good fill out. If you do succeed at getting good bollits the next problem is they weigh about 2/3rds of what the lead version would which means many dont fly true. Also load data is tough to come by at the odd weights one finds.

Zinc also tends to skid on the rifling like overly hardened lead alloys can unless loads are matched very carefully.

I played enough to know it was a better idea to find all the lead I could while I could.

[sig2009]

Just got $21 for 71 lbs of stick on Zinc wheelweights at the scrap yard. I asked the owner if he would sell any lead wheelweights and he told me NO. You have to be very careful. He is not supposed to. So I asked him what the price would be to sell me some if I wanted 100 lbs and he told me $0.60 lb. So looks like for now I have a source.

Besides I have taken home over 500 lbs of range lead from the indoor backstop at our range for free so as long as they make bullets and there is scrap lead I am good to go!

[theperfessor]

I think jbunny has done some things with zinc. Might want to check his posts.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm wondering if the casting industry could put their heads together and come up with some sort of a moldable lead free alloy. Winchester already makes lead free tin .22 LR ammo at a semi-affordable price, and shotgun ammo makers produce pellets that actually outperform lead but at a sky high price. I think it can be done but, sadly, it may take the impetus of draconian restrictions on PB to make it happen.

[sig2009]

No way!

[H.Callahan]

Think there was some playing around with zinc projectiles sometime around the turn of the (20th) century. I vaguely recall reading that they were workable, but not spectacular, and there were (then) no advantages over using lead.

[mag_01]

Zinc is hard --- moulds ok but is brittle --- tends to be problematic in sizing dies an can mess up A die.

[MBTcustom]

I was reading a while ago, dont remember who, maybe P-dog shooter, successfully paper patched zinc boolits. It might be worth a try, but I can't see them doing very well on critters.

[pdawg_shooter]

I was reading a while ago, dont remember who, maybe P-dog shooter, successfully paper patched zinc boolits. It might be worth a try, but I can't see them doing very well on critters.

Wernt me! I am old enough and set enough in my ways not to change now. I think it was doc1, maybe.

[darkroommike]

More do-able in heavier calibers, I recall an episode of Top Shot using the Hotchkiss Mountain Gun with inert zinc rounds blowing the bejeebers out of water tanks (I so want a Hotchkiss!) and Rotometals sells zinc cannon balls in several sizes.

[lathesmith]

Some guys have had success with Zinc, it will work under the right circumstances. But, whatever you do, DON'T fire zinc slugs at an indoor range (or any range) with steel baffles!! The riccochet potential is seriously high, they can bounce around like they are in a pinball machine, with disastrous results. This is NOT a joke!

lathesmith

[packrat]

I would get hold of all the lead I could find now and not worry about trying to shoot zink...just my .02 cents

[pdawg_shooter]

I'm with you, packrat. Hmmm, does that name imply anything?

[Longwood]

A bit of experimenting would never hurt.
I wonder how much of another metal it would take to alloy it to make good bullets.
I would think that for the, close range plate shooting, they would work just fine.
Do any of you know what the refineries use for flux?
I doubt a aluminum mold would be a good a choice.

[firefly1957]

Early 45 acp used zinc the bullets were lighter I have never heard what the velocities were probably something on the web about it. I have seen loads for zinc bullets back into the 1970's but never payed a lot of attention some precautions were that they foul the bore bad and they should not be poured in a aluminum mould (possible soldering of materials) Accuracy was complained about also with most loads.

[H.Callahan]

I've never tried it even with a lead bullet, but I wonder how paper patching a zincer would work...

[pdawg_shooter]

If you can cast them the right size they will work. I would hate to try to size one down .010 for patching.

[303Guy]

Perhaps we should be looking for a new alloy that prevents the leads from oxidizing and leaching into the soil so that it would be considered 'environmentally safe'. By the way, ingested lead is not a major source of lead absorption. It's the oxides and salts of lead that get absorbed (as well as vapours).

How about an alloy of zinc to make it more workable? I'm thinking of a lighter and tougher alloy to use for high velocity paper patched boolits for varmint use.

In my parts the shortage of wheel weights is caused by fishermen! Lead pipe and other lead scrap can be obtained by the ton from the scrap metal dealers - literally. It does cost though.

[303Guy]

Holy Cow! Look what I found under Lead and Lead alloys.

zinc/aluminum bullets

(ZA being zinc-aluminium).


ZA alloys were initially
developed for gravity casting.
Their mechanical properties
compete directly with bronze,
cast iron and aluminum using
sand, permanent mold and
plaster mold casting methods.
Distinguishing features of the
ZA alloys are their high
aluminum content and
excellent bearing properties

The aluminium dissolves into molten zinc.

[Longwood]

There were some wood handles molds from Russia on a thread here recently that had huge and odd looking sprue's that made me think about a thread I read a year ago about how zinc bullets have a tendency to have a hollow cavity in the base after they are cast.
I wonder if the reason for such an odd, mold cavity shape, on the Russian molds, is for making zinc bullets.

[303Guy]

I have a large sprue/casting funnel on my molds to fill the void as it forms.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-487F.jpg

Maybe I'm halfway there already. The exterior shape of the mold is to cool the mold from the bottom up with the sprue 'puddle' freezing last. It does work. The funnel gets plucked off leaving a cool hollow nose.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/HollowNoseDesign.jpg

[Thompsoncustom]

I don't know if it's a great alternative but it is doable, I have been doing some casting with zinc and thou it works it is harder on your equipment and it takes a lot more time for a lot less bullets.

I've found that adding aluminum to the zinc is kind of like adding tin to lead it helps with the fill out of the mold, another advantage of adding aluminum till it won't take anymore is that it will cut down on attacking your mold if your using aluminum mold to cast it. My first mold I used was a Lee 125gr TL that the zinc ended up eating but I haven't had the problem with my new zinc mold which is a Lee 102gr. The bullets themselves will also be lighter my Lee 124gr mold dropped them at 81gr grains and the Lee 102gr drops them at 60gr I believe. So about 40gr's lighter than a lead bullet. Another down side is that your mold has to be pretty hot and you will only be able to fill one cavity at a time because you need to pour and hit that sprue plate as fast as you can or you will need a torch to soften it back up.

Some of the upsides of the bullets are you don't need lube thou it doesn't hurt to lube them, you can size them thou it just takes some force, no leading and you can push them super fast. I think I have got my 60gr zinc/alum bullet around 2000fps out of a 3.5in barrel. Shot the side of my 1/4 in bullet trap and thou it didn't go throw it wasn't to far off.

I haven't really played around to much with 50% lead 50% Zinc but I will say if you have pure zinc and lead they will mix and play nice together unlike zinc and WW, I'm not sure why but it's got to be something in the WW that doesn't mix with the zinc. This alloy would probably be one of the better ones as leading shouldn't be an issues even without lube and it would be easier to size, you would also gain some of your weight back say 50% of what was lost :). the only down side I see to with this alloy is it's not an alternative as you still need lead and you lose a little hardness which isn't really a down side.

[BAGTIC]

The solution to the sizing zinc problem is to not size them.

It will be irrelevant whether zinc is as good as lead once lead becomes unavailable. No matter how bad they may be they will be better than noting at all.


Tin will never be a reasonable substitute, not while it is $10 a pound in ton lots.

We have to accpt the changes that are coming, roll with the punches and go with the flow.

[BAGTIC]

Perhaps we should be looking for a new alloy that prevents the leads from oxidizing and leaching into the soil so that it would be considered 'environmentally safe'. By the way, ingested lead is not a major source of lead absorption. It's the oxides and salts of lead that get absorbed (as well as vapours).

How about an alloy of zinc to make it more workable? I'm thinking of a lighter and tougher alloy to use for high velocity paper patched boolits for varmint use.

In my parts the shortage of wheel weights is caused by fishermen! Lead pipe and other lead scrap can be obtained by the ton from the scrap metal dealers - literally. It does cost though.

NOPE! It is the ingested lead that causes the problem.

[Longwood]

Playing around with 45 caliber glue bullets, I learned that it is pretty simple to cast a pretty large steel or lead ball in the tip to add weight and make it fly farther and more like a shuttle cock.
A steel or lead ball in the nose of a zinc bullet would weigh more than one made of only zinc.
I am also considering machining a small fin/lip on the base of some to see if I can make bullets that are not so exact size critical.
I machine some of my 45-70 lead bullet bases and sure get a razor edge on the bases.
I did some very hard cast Postell shaped bullets with a small base fin and did not see any sign of my lube blowing past the bullets which I had noticed before.
I enlarged the mold a thousandth and now I don't do the fin type base but want to try it some more.
Zinc bullets may be the place to work with it.

[Horace]

In the mid 1990`s commercial zinc swc bullet on the market i`m not sure how long it lasted.They look to be cast but not the way we cast.There are 4 raised rings around the bullet that measure .356 -.357 the body is .345.Pictures would be nice.

Horace

[Longwood]

In the mid 1990`s commercial zinc swc bullet on the market i`m not sure how long it lasted.They look to be cast but not the way we cast.There are 4 raised rings around the bullet that measure .356 -.357 the body is .345.Pictures would be nice.

Horace

I remember a bullet with a teat on the back that a zinc ring went on for a type of gas check.
I do not recall if it was lubed.

[L1A1Rocker]

Aguila's "I.Q." line of bullets (now withdrawn at the request of Big Brother) were made of zinc. I'm thinking that some experimintation with molds is going to be critical to make this work. We're going to need large bullets (because of the weight loss) with a flared out base that would make a sharp base edge after sizing. Also, the diameter of the bullet would have to be closer to correct size to make final sizing easier.

Just my thoughts.

[Longwood]

Aguila's "I.Q." line of bullets (now withdrawn at the request of Big Brother) were made of zinc. I'm thinking that some experimintation with molds is going to be critical to make this work. We're going to need large bullets (because of the weight loss) with a flared out base that would make a sharp base edge after sizing. Also, the diameter of the bullet would have to be closer to correct size to make final sizing easier.

Just my thoughts.

We may have to invent new calibers in order to get good ballistic co-efficiency.
I doubt that it would be very much like casting lead.
Casting them to exact size would be very important and surely quite difficult.
Sizing afterward would be a major issue but ohhh how I would love to get away from lubes.
Forging while hot may be an option but I have no idea if zinc can be forged.

I am curious and interested but I am not going to worry about it or mess with it very much because I have plenty of lead,,, if,,, they don't come and take it away.

[303Guy]

NOPE! It is the ingested lead that causes the problem.Ingesting metallic lead does result in lead absorption. I stand corrected. However, ingestion of lead is usually not in the metallic form and absorption through inhalation remains a major source. Contaminated food and water is a major source too.

[762 shooter]

I have a Harvey Protxbore mold for a 44 Mag (mold # 429508). A zinc washer is placed in the mold slot near the base of the mold and when cast, a nipple of casting material will hold the 0.429 OD zinc washer near the base of the bullet.

I have the molds and the washers for a project when it gets a little cooler.

I'll see if the theory and the reality coincide.

762

[Longwood]

Try Prot-X-Bore in the google search box.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Prot-X-Bore.htm

[Multigunner]

When casting any Zinc based alloy one should consider the possibility of "Zinc Pest".
This is a German term for a corrosion that can take place at some point after the bullets have been finished and stored for some time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest
In worst case the bullets can crumble while being seated or disintegrate when fired.
I've seen it recommended that when casting zinc bullets one should use only dedicated melting pot, dipper, and mold blocks, to avoid lead contamination.

Zamac and Kirksite are basically the same alloy, and suited to cast bullets.
Zamac 2 has copper added which increases strength but bullets can be brittle and degrade over time.

[MikeS]

I would think that if somebody really wanted to get into casting zinc boolits, it might be a good idea to look into spin casting. It's done with a vulcanized rubber mould. I bet somebody could cast up some lead boolits of a design them want to try, and then use them as masters for making the rubber moulds. Doing it this way there would be no problems with contamination of moulds, etc. Depending on the amount of shrinkage, the lead 'masters' could be sized so that the finished boolits were at the proper bore diameter. If I wasn't perfectly happy with lead boolits, and I wasn't shooting at a club range, I would look into it, but as I shoot mostly at a club range where a grounds keeper mines the lead boolits and resells the lead (and I'm a customer) I think I'lll let someone else do the experimenting. :)

[Mrtank]

Thompsoncustom I did find this on my wondering. http://www.brockmetal.com/downloads/documents/KH9NGAKRFF_Zinc_Alloy_chemistry_in_the_foundry..pd f


Aluminium:
This element is added to improve the strength and casting fluidity. It also reduces the leaching or dissolving effect of pure zinc on the cast iron machine components and is therefore an essential element. The specified levels of aluminum give the best combination of mechanical properties casting characteristics.
It is important to remember that levels of aluminum below 3.5% will result in:
• Lower mechanical properties.
• Poor surface finish.
• Hot shortness at the casting stage.
Above a 4.5%
• Mechanical properties deteriorate markedly.
• Particularly impact strength, which drops dramatically.
It should be noted that overheating of zinc alloy will deplete aluminum levels and this must be avoided at all costs.

Molten zinc will also dissolve Iron. There are some alloys of copper zinc and iron, one is Sterro-Metal 60 parts copper 38 to 38.5 zinc and 2 to 1.5 iron. Makes me wonder hot much iron would dissolve into Zinc then how much aluminum would dissolve into that.

Could have a higer density than Just zinc would wonder about the properties, and ratios.

There is also Delta Metal copper zinc iron, and some other things depending on manufacture. http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Henley-s-20th-Century-Formulas-Recipes-Processes-Vol1/Delta-Metal.html

[Danderdude]

You have the watch what the law says about it. Zinc bullets are skirting awfully close to the legal definition of armor-piercing, which includes any bullet that CAN (not IS, but CAN) be used in a "handgun" (including 30 cal rifle bullets, .45-70 bullets, etc).

Here's the law, 18 USC CHAPTER 44:

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge
cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in
any firearm.
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.

Several people have been shut down in the past for making banded copper rifle bullets.

[Thompsoncustom]

Thanks for the link it's been awhile since I've done any zinc casting I'm thinking of taking Gear's idea and anodizing the lee mold that I use to cast zinc stuff in. I'm thinking that will help extended the life of the mold better than smoking it to build a barrier.

[BAGTIC]

I don't believe home casting of zinc bullets will prove practical. It is possible for industrial pressure casting machines to cast zinc to very close tolerances but that is not practical for home casting.

I have bought zinc handgun bullets from a commercial caster in Illinois. They are rather nice but available designs are limited. He told me it was because a set of moulds for his machine costs $10,000.

We will never get away from the fact that zinc bullets will always be much lighter than lead which drastically reduces their effective range. For short range use and as a handgun defensive load the poor BC might be advantageous. It will result in very high velocity/energy levels at short range while quickly reducing the power of strays or penetrating shots at longer ranges.

It is possible possible to develop frangible zinc alloys.

Typical zinc alloys such as Zamack have penetrative ability about like mild steel. They might be usefull for police rounds that need to penetrate auto bodies, windshields, and similar objects at short range.

Just don't expect them to expand.
youti

[Mrtank]

I was thinking short range light loaded for rifles. Similar to the Czech 44 grain 7.62x54r hollow core training ammunition, though not as light of a bullet and not going as fast. It could be interesting a 100 grain cast zinc bullet would be larger, and not have as much of a "jump" as a jacketed or cast bullet of the same weight.

[MT Gianni]

180 gr bullets are about 27 lbs per 1000. Buying alloy @ $1 a lb lead is still cheaper than the primer to shoot it. I do not believe that lead will disappear, I believe free or cheap lead already has. We may be buying our alloys in the future from RotoMetals or a private recycler but I see lead as being around for the next 25 years minimum.

[savage308]

what about shotgun slugs ?

[MikeS]

While I realize it would be a really expensive alloy, I was wondering how boolits cast from lead free solder (the kind that's 97% tin & 3% antimony) would work? I used to have a bunch of it, but I used them all making Lyman #2 alloy, otherwise I would cast some and try them myself. I would imagine it would make boolits that are heavier than zinc ones, and they would be malleable enough to expand when needed. The only thing that I'm really worried about is if they would have a tendency to tin the barrel, or if normal boolit lubes would be able to prevent that?

[icehouse]

A year or so late, but here is some info. There is an article in the January 1948 American Rifleman on zinc bullet casting. The only downside was non expansion in hunting rounds.

[MUSTANG]

Can you make a pdf of the article or provide a link for review?

I did an Internet search and found a variety of Collections of older American Rifleman for sale, but no pdf articles. Most of us are a little young to have that issue in our Library.

Mustang

[I'll Make Mine]

While I realize it would be a really expensive alloy, I was wondering how boolits cast from lead free solder (the kind that's 97% tin & 3% antimony) would work? <snip> I would imagine it would make boolits that are heavier than zinc ones, and they would be malleable enough to expand when needed.

Density of zinc: 7.14 g/cm^3
Density of tin: 7.365 g/cm^3

Not much difference in density at all; a tin-antimony boolit would weigh only a couple percent more than a pure zinc one. It would be somewhat softer, but tin absorbs a lot of energy on deformation, so it's unlikely a tin boolit would expand much more than a zinc one (and certainly less than soft lead). Given cost, it'd be pretty silly to make tin boolits compared to common lead/tin/antimony alloys.

[fcvan]

The idea of zinc shotgun slugs makes a certain amount of sense. A hollow based slug wouldn't get deformed at the base and the zinc wouldn't contact the bore due to the wad. A sabot slug might even be better as you could tweak the coefficient to match density for increased accuracy. I wouldn't think you need expansion beyond the bore size or in the case of the sabot the boolit would be something around 50 cal. Using zinc in a big old slug would save alloy for pistol and rifle boolits :)

[BAGTIC]

Zinc 8 gauge slugs are loaded for clearing clinker from the drains of industrial melting furnaces. IIRC some of the specialty 12 loads used by police for removing locks from doors are made of sintered zinc. Sintered zinc could be used on target ranges and possibly for short range varmint shooting to prevent ricochets. I don't know if they would fragment on small varmints or not. Most small varmints are so small compared to the energy of any bullet that expansion for lethality really isn't needed.

[BAGTIC]

Aquila makes a subsonic 60 gr lead .22 LR load. If zinc were substituted for lead the bullet weight would be about 39 gr or equal to normal .22 LR loads. Zinc should be cheaper than tin by a long shot.
If sintered zinc were used it would be target safe. Some may who remember the old time .22 Short 'Spatterproof" gallery loads that were made of a molded iron powder/bakelite blend. They were only 15-19 grains but at a very high velocity even fron the .22 Short case. Something on the LR case suitable for plinking, small game hunting should certainly be feasible where ranges don't excede 25-50 yards. Velocity could be 2,000 +/- from a 16 inch barrel and energy should equal .22 LR out to 75-100 yards with flatter trajectory.