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View Full Version : Finally got to shoot my first CB's!



mortre
06-18-2012, 02:29 PM
Fun, but ran into a few problems. I'd like to ask for you guys to critique my loads and assumptions. I'd rather learn from you than trail and error.:-P

I decided to use the same basic load that I have been using with commercial plated bullets, sense plated is supposed to track well with lead, right? Wrong. Or at least not for me. From eyeing the two side by side, I'm pretty sure bearing surface and amount of bullet in the casing should be just about the same (Lee TL452-230-TC and Xtreme 230 RN plated bullet). I used the plated bullet load I have been loading as a control. All rounds were shot with a Wilson Combat CQB.

Control: Pretty well replicates WWB for me in this gun.
10 rounds, 5.4gr Universal, Mixed Brass, CCI 300 primer @ 1.25" COAL.
Velocity AVG: 808
ES: 86
SD: 26

TL452-230-TC (sized .451 with Lee sizer die and tumble lubed with the lube that came with the sizer die)
10 rounds, 5.4gr Universal, Mixed Brass, CCI 300 primer @ 1.20" COAL
Velocity AVG: 874:!:
ES: 52
SD: 15

While that is a marked improvement on ES and SD, the velocity is higher than I am comfortable with. Not to mention recoil seemed stout. Similar to my 230gr Gold Dot carry ammo.

Also, I am pretty sure I am getting leading in the barrel. But not knowing what I am looking for it's hard to say. There were what looked like strings of plastic hanging from the inside of the barrel, and dark smears throughout the barrel. No smears ran the full length of the barrel. Most were less than 1" long as best as I can tell.

1st thing is I am planning on dailing back the load to 5.0gr even. With plated bullets I was getting about 20 to 25 fps gain per .1gr of powder. So if lead tracks the same way that should put the velocity back down to about 800 fps and hopefully cycle all my 45's correctly.

With plated I didn't start cycling my Sig correctly until 5.2 grains. But velocity was quite low through it's 3.9" barrel. Which is why I am now doing my testing with my 5" 1911. But for reference, this is what I was getting with plated bullets in the short barrel sig.

Universal: 4.8gr
Vel: 654
Notes: FTRTB, Very Dirty.

Universal: 5.0gr
Vel: 684
Notes: FTRTB, Very Dirty.

Universal: 5.2
Vel: 722
Notes: Cycled Correctly, no unburnt particles.

Considering these things, I am going to continue loading plated bullets for 9mm and 38 super until I get a better grasp of things. Instead I am going to start working with the 44 special once it gets back from the gunsmith.

Shiloh
06-18-2012, 10:53 PM
What is accuracy like sized at .451??

5.1 gr Unique gives me 807 avg. FPS. 5.5 gr Unique gives 872 avg. FPS.

Similar to what you are getting, but a LEE 200 gr. TLSWC sized at .452. This boolit is very similar in profile
to a Lyman 452460. Unique is dirty, especially when paired with LLA. but the accuracy speaks for itself and I can clean my gun.

Moderate recoil at 5.1 gr. Unique and cycles the gun. I can shoot plates pretty fast. I don't win matches but am in the upper group. We have some really good shooters on the plate range.

Shiloh

mortre
06-19-2012, 11:45 AM
I can't say much for accuracy, the wind was kicking pretty good left to right and the range uses 2 wires with bungee's on top and bottom to hold the pistol targets. So the targets themselves had about a foot of horizontal movement and probably 6 inches vertical.

I was mainly just getting velocity readings anyway. Next time out hopefully there won't be any wind. The only indoor range in the area does not allow lead bullets OR reloads on the range. So I am at the mercy of the weather when trying to shoot for groups.

Oh, I am sizing .451 because I don't really feel comfortable slugging my own bore. Both my 45's that I shoot regularly are Wilson's while I am not necessarily gentle with them, the though of hammering a bullet into the bore and back out makes me cringe...

sqlbullet
06-19-2012, 05:32 PM
You need to slug the guns to know for sure what you need to do. Use a rubber mallet and lead driven by a wooden dowel. You aren't going to hurt anything. It actually takes far less force than you would think.

Definitions for leading can vary. As a general rule I don't consider it leading until it has a deleterious effect on accuracy between a standard cleaning cycle (300-500 rounds). Others have different definitions.

Brush the bore lightly with Hoppes #9, let it sit for a few minutes, then push a really tight patch through on a brass jag. If you had leading your patch will come out with chunks of lead on it. I had this once with boolits I knew were undersize. Otherwise, grey fouling on the patch is lead fouling, but not leading.

Lead offers more lubricity than copper, which is what I would attribute the velocity increase to. Back off the load til you have 800 fps and then see if accuracy suffers during a shooting session. If not, you are good.

mortre
06-20-2012, 12:39 AM
Well, I slugged it as best I could. I ended up crushing a speer 158 lswchp in my vise. Just crushed it until it started to bump up to .451 then run it through the sizing die with some case lube. Kept bumping and sizing it until I had a plug that was .451, then bumped it one last time.

Best I could measure was just a smidge under. 451, and the sizing die leaves the bullets just a smidge over. 451. So I think that means I need to order a .452 sizing die? On cleaning there is definitely lead in the barrel, and the plastic bristle brush isn't getting it out. May have to get a copper one.

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44man
06-20-2012, 07:37 AM
Well, I slugged it as best I could. I ended up crushing a speer 158 lswchp in my vise. Just crushed it until it started to bump up to .451 then run it through the sizing die with some case lube. Kept bumping and sizing it until I had a plug that was .451, then bumped it one last time.

Best I could measure was just a smidge under. 451, and the sizing die leaves the bullets just a smidge over. 451. So I think that means I need to order a .452 sizing die? On cleaning there is definitely lead in the barrel, and the plastic bristle brush isn't getting it out. May have to get a copper one.

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You should slug with pure lead and only a clean, oily bore. You will not get good readings any other way. I found ML balls work great.

mortre
06-20-2012, 04:01 PM
I thought the Speer swaged bullets were pure lead? Seems a waste to buy a whole box for just 1 ball.

mortre
07-23-2012, 01:07 PM
I got back out this weekend and tried again with the 230-TC and a couple of changes to the load.

Dropped powder charge to 4.9gr (10 charges averaged 49.4gr).
Changed lube to 45-45-10

Velocity 714
ES 26
SD 89
3" groups at 20 yards, and I can't do much better than 2 so I would call that good. It cycled the gun fine. The only thing I didn't like about the load is that it comes in below major power factor if you subtract 1 SD from the AVG velocity. I don't shoot any gun games now, but would like to get into it.
I will try bumping the RCBS uniflow to average 50gr or a little more for 10 charges. I'm pretty sure I jacked up the 45-45-10 as well. It was pretty tacky, so I am going to try and go back and add some more JPW to the 45-45-10.


P.S. S&W 696 came back from the gunsmith Sunday as well. The bead blast cleaned up most of the Bubba'ing the previous owner did. At least enough for a working gun LOL. I got 100 44 Russian and. 100 44 SPC brass for it. Still waiting on the sizing die and factory crimp die. The 696 is the next on my list for a cast load.

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MtGun44
07-23-2012, 01:43 PM
If you don't slug, use .452 diam for .45 ACP. Universal is unknown to me, but I have found that
the faster powders like W231, Bullseye and Titegroup work extremely well for moderate to
full power loads. If you don't have one of these, buy a can and start with them. It sounds like
Universal is not burning well for less than full loads, and therefore you want one of the
more forgiving powders.

Try about 3.8-4.2 of Bullseye or TG and .452 diam you will probably be pleasantly surprised.

Also - what lube? A taper crimp in a separate die is mandatory for best reliability with this
cartridge.

Bill

plainsman456
07-23-2012, 04:54 PM
MtGun44 nailed it well.
What are the boolits alloy you are shooting?
I use ww and range scrap sized 452 with 2500+ and Bullseye,have not had any problems like you described.

popper
07-23-2012, 04:57 PM
Cook the 45/45/10 more and then add mineral oil to thin it. Ed's red works better for cast, there is no copper to remove. Copper chore boy on a brush or mop gets the lead out, move it back and forth, not just a push through like normal cleaning. You didn't state your ally composition, WW?

mortre
07-23-2012, 05:07 PM
I'm using .451 because that is the one I have =p. I may try and lap it out a little, but for now I've got what I've got. They come out of the mould at .453x.454

I've got a few more powders, but neither of the ones mentioned. Universal is basically Hodgdon's Unique. Other suitable powders I have on hand are AA#2 Improved, VihtaVouri N320 and Hercules Unique (pretty old). Would you recommend me trying any of those? I blew my gun budget ($750 over the last 2 weeks) for awhile unless I want a divorce =p.

Honestly though I'm less worried about dirty than I am about cycling. I have been taper crimping and seating in the same operation. Lube is not-made-quite-right 45-45-10 (recluse lube).

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Grandpas50AE
07-23-2012, 05:39 PM
I have been taper crimping and seating in the same operation.

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If the leading isn't too bad, this could be the cause. As the crimp pushes the inside of the case mouth down, the boolit has just a little farther to go before fully seating, and you may be shaving a very small amount of boolit at the end of the seating operation. Try doing the seating and taper-crimp in separate operations and see if that affects the amount of lead deposit in the barrel.

mortre
07-23-2012, 07:16 PM
Alloy started as about 7 lbs isotope lead and 7 lbs range scrap. I turned the heat up too high and cooked the tin out though, so I tossed all the bullets back in the pot and added a 4 oz roll of 95/5 solder. Painful lesson...

I haven't pulled the barrel to look for leading yet, so I don't know if that is still happening or not. I only fired 10 rounds for accuracy/velocity. I was planning on getting the accuracy/velocity about where I want it before attacking leading. And I'm working in small batches right now, I hate pulling bullets. That was another painful lesson...

Next time around I will try seating and crimping separately.

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runfiverun
07-23-2012, 07:59 PM
any copper in the bbl can make leading appear where it really isn't.

MtGun44
07-23-2012, 08:09 PM
Try some as cast, unsized, and use a faster powder if you want more moderate
loads. A separate TC die should be on your shopping list.

Bill

mortre
07-23-2012, 08:18 PM
Try some as cast, unsized, and use a faster powder if you want more moderate
loads. A separate TC die should be on your shopping list.

Bill

As in the Lee factory crimp dies?

Maybe I will try shooting as cast as opposed to more powder next time. I was afraid .453x.454 would be too big. I've got enough plated bullets loaded up right now I think I can afford to make 1 or 2 two changes at a time.

I wonder if the "leading" I am seeing is coming from firing the cast bullets after the plated ones at the end of the trip.

*edit*

I just pulled the barrel. Plenty of "dirty", but nothing I can identify as leading.

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mortre
07-23-2012, 08:45 PM
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RobS
07-23-2012, 09:06 PM
Looks like leading in there to me.......run a dry patch down that barrel and I'm sure you feel it catching up. I'll put money that your boolit is coming from the loaded case smaller than your barrel's groove diameter. By the way with softer alloys running at your as cast diameter of .454-.455 the boolits will likely swage down in the case anyway so they may be about right in the end.

Have you ever pulled a round to measure the very edge of the bullet base??? You could be surprised to find out your .451 bullet is smaller. If you are using the Lee Factory Crimp die with the carbide ring in it then try seating a boolit first then pull it and measure (no crimping). Then seat another boolit, and then crimp with the Lee factory crimp die -FCD- and see what you get. Of course if your case is swaging the boolit down to .450 during the seating process it is unlikely that the FCD will make your boolit diameter smaller. The Lee FCD was designed with jacketed bullets in mind so the final use or idea is to smooth out the case to the outside dimentions of a loaded round with a .451 bullet in the case. This was to aid in cycling process of the loads however with fatter cast boolits it becomes an issue because cast needs to be a larger diameter.

If an air cooled .454 boolit will chamber, shoot it and your problems will likely disappear.

mortre
07-23-2012, 09:09 PM
Actually, I was asking if the FCD was what you were referring to when you said sepertate crimp die.

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RobS
07-23-2012, 09:18 PM
No not the Lee FCD, you can use any taper crimp die that doesn't have the darn carbide ring that post sizes your round. If you have a seat and crimp die in one then you could set the seating stem long so there is no crimp and then seat all your boolits then come back and set the seating stem short so you only crimp. I don't know what press you are reloading with but if it's a single stage this isn't too cumbersome however if you are on a turret or a progressive then you may want to get a seperate taper crimp die. I would probably get a new one anyway. Lee has a taper crimp die for $9 to $12 if my memory is right.

canyon-ghost
07-23-2012, 09:35 PM
any copper in the bbl can make leading appear where it really isn't.

Runfiverun is telling you that copper is probably going to attract leading. If you really want to do your pistols a favor, drop the copper plated or jacketed altogether. Go after the perfect lead load, the rewards are great. No more 'rocket-launching' a jacketed bullet instead of soft shooting lead rounds. Your pistol and it barrel will last lots longer.

Using just Carnuba Red and cast, I only have to brush it out with mineral spirits from the lumber yard. I finally got all the copper out with Hoppe's and acetone, now, all I shoot is lead.

Good Luck,
Ron

mortre
07-23-2012, 10:35 PM
That's the plan, eventually anyway. I'm trying to shoot up the last of my plated bullets before the final switch though. About 350 left for the 45's, but about 1500 for 9mm and 38 super. Never had any for the new to me. 44 SPC.

Here is the newly back from the gunsmith 44.

http://img.tapatalk.com/47e7a415-0a23-eb56.jpg

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RobS
07-23-2012, 11:07 PM
Nice looking Revolver!!!



Here is the newly back from the gunsmith 44.

http://img.tapatalk.com/47e7a415-0a23-eb56.jpg

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canyon-ghost
07-23-2012, 11:14 PM
That is nice! I never shot any factory 44 Special because I'd just finished 41 mag and I already had brass and lead bullets for the 44. I never regretted not shooting store bought. It's really easier not to shoot it. Just cast up a storm!

44man
07-24-2012, 07:48 AM
I thought the Speer swaged bullets were pure lead? Seems a waste to buy a whole box for just 1 ball.
That is the advantage of shooting muzzle loaders and having all kinds of molds! :bigsmyl2:
You really need another shooting sport anyway! [smilie=l:

Grandpas50AE
07-24-2012, 08:19 AM
Mortre,
I am using 50/50 alloy (COWW/Pure lead) and BAC lube, sized to .4515 and running 970fps on a 200 gr. - no leading. When I'm done shooting a couple hundred rounds, bore has a little powder residue, but shiny and clean other than that. If you are running a similar alloy, it will easily swage that alloy at .453 down to bore size, but with a Wilson CQB you may get chambering problems from a tight chamber. I doubt it would hurt anything to lap that sizer die out to .452 and make sure your expander bells the case mouth enough to not scrape the boolit upon seating, then taper crimp in separate operation. Good boolit fit and good lube, the .45ACP should do very well with no leading.
Congrats on the Wilson by the way.

popper
07-24-2012, 09:39 AM
I use pliers type wire stripper and a piece of PVC pipe in the press to pull CBs. They get dumped into the pot anyway. Quick and easy. I'd try as cast if they will chamber.

mortre
07-24-2012, 02:42 PM
I will definitely try as cast, saves me a step, and I like that. I believe I should be able to pull a 7mm bore snake through the bore to remove powder residue without removing any lead fouling. So I can get a better look for lead fouling, is that right? I took a look at the barrel photos on the computer. Looks like when I shrank them on the phone something got lost in translation. Especially on the darker one...

How does that pvc/stripper setup work. I can see how the stippers could be used, but I am lost on the pvc pipe. Are you screwing it into the press instead of a die to protect the threads? I just pulled 50 plated 9mm rounds last night. The staring load got me the velocity I was after, and cycled the action. .2 grains later, groups pulled in. So I pulled the rest to be reloaded.

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RobS
07-24-2012, 10:28 PM
Just run a bore brush with a wrap of disposable blue shop towel or a piece of strong paper towel dipped in gun solvent down the barrel a few times. Then come back with a dry patch. Anything comes out silver on the patchs (shop towel/paper towel) or is still in the bore is likely lead.

MikeS
07-25-2012, 02:57 AM
Mortre: First off, rather than trying to lap out your .451 sizing die, just go ahead and buy a .452 one. There might come a time when you might need the .451 die, and it's not like they're expensive. Don't get the Carbide Factory Crimp Die, rather get a regular taper crimp die, Lee sells them for less than $10.00 and it'll do what you want it to do. As for bore snakes, go ahead and use a 45 cal bore snake, one pass should remove any loose powder, and if it also removes the leading, then the leading wasn't anything to worry about in the first place! After you've done one pass with the bore snake, then you can look for leading, and go ahead and remove it if it's there. As for slugging the bore, with a name brand 45 it's not really needed (or not as much as it was years ago), and sizing your boolits to .452 should work. I slugged the bore on my PT1911 and found that it should be using .452 boolits, and I've also shot the same size boolits in my Jericho 941 and Smith 22-4 as well, and neither of them lead with my loads.

I'm curious about the PVC pipe as well, but I suspect it's being used basically as the surface the cutter rests on to protect the press.

Max Brand
07-25-2012, 04:55 AM
I use the Lee factory crimp die for all of my cast .45's but not as it was designed to be used. I just bump the case on the very bottom of the die to crimp the the boolit. The die is almost all the way out of the press when set up this way and believe me, it works great, I've been loading my .45's this way for years.

RobS
07-25-2012, 09:55 AM
I use the Lee factory crimp die for all of my cast .45's but not as it was designed to be used. I just bump the case on the very bottom of the die to crimp the the boolit. The die is almost all the way out of the press when set up this way and believe me, it works great, I've been loading my .45's this way for years.

Now that's not a bad idea; just run it up into the FCD's carbide ring far enough to crimp the mouth of brass...........huh.

mortre
07-25-2012, 12:13 PM
Haven't passed anything through the bore yet, I was busy priming brass last night. Got 400 9mm and 100 30-30 primed though. And get my 9mm seating die set and dummy round for my last box of plated 9mm bullets. Will try do the easy 1 pass with a 45 snake and see what it looks like.

Question on cooking the 45-45-10 longer. Can I recook the not-made-right 45-45-10 to fix it, or will that destroy the LLA in it? I assume I will have to re-add the mineral spirits afterwords, I'm pretty sure that would cook off as well. Or should I just get some more LLA and start a new batch from scratch.

popper
07-25-2012, 01:05 PM
The PVC pipe just goes around the ram (single stage press) raise the boolit above the pipe, clamp on the sharp edge of the stripper and lower the ram. For jacketd, I use the crimp part of the tool. Cast go into the pot, J into the box to be reused. Works really well for the SWC and TC cast. Just let the recluse sit and smoke at low temp, you don't want to 'burn' the wax. You will need to add MS anyway. Bore snake won't get much of any fouling out, from my experience.

mortre
07-25-2012, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the description on how the PVC works! Sounds TONS easier than the ^&&^&^( inertia hammer. Good to know that the bore snake won't strip out any lead fouling before I can look for it as well. I will recook the recluse tonight, I burned my first batch of wax, literally. Got hot enough that it hit it's flash point. JPW makes an amazingly tall flame btw...

Now I am using an old crock pot hot plate I got at good will. It will get hot enough to boil water, but just barely, seems to work a lot better for cooking the JPW =p.

mortre
07-26-2012, 01:24 PM
Pulled a snake through last night and the barrel came out almost squeaky clean. There was some smears at the beginning of the rifling. They were pretty short, less than an inch long, and only on the left side of the barrel.

Does that means the bullets were slightly undersized? Or could that be traces of copper fouling? Either way, I'm going to give the bore a good scrub before I go back to the range.

I've still got 20 loaded rounds left at the current specs, next set I load up will be unsized.

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RobS
07-26-2012, 08:33 PM
Yep, undersized from the sound of things. Load up some unsized but make up a dummy round first to see if it chambers. You may have to adjust the COAL (possibly shorter) and in doing so you may want to drop your powder charge a bit as well or stay at the minimum of the reloading manuals. However at 1.20" COAL I think you are right at the shoulder of the lee TC boolit. I remember when I shot that design I would seat the bullet so the mouth of the brass was at the shoulder (where the body and the ogive/nose meet) and when I taper crimped it would "tuck" the brass over and aid in chambering. Simply take your barrel out and play with seating depth and crimp to get reliable chambering. The Lee 452-230-TC is a short bullet design so having a shorter COAL really isn't too far off considering the length of a RN design or other bullet designs. For your next range session if you can chamber unsized then I would load up a magazine full of them so once you are done shooting the undersized ones (.451ish) you can come back with the others to aid in cleaning out the bore. I've had leading with some undersized, hard commercial cast and came back with my properly fitted home brewed boolits and they clean the bore right out after a magazine or two. It sure beats scrubbing forever on the leading that is at the lands and start of the barrel.

RobS
07-26-2012, 09:37 PM
If the unsized don't chamber then in the end a .452 or .453 boolit will more than likely be the ticket.

popper
07-27-2012, 11:04 AM
I just use a section of cleaning rod (cheap brass one) with a bore swab, Bronze brush with chore-boy wrap and patches. I can take it to the range for a quick swab, don't even remove the bbl. Open the action, grip up and push through. Junk mostly drops out the port. I do use the bore snake on rifle to clean powder residue out. I've not had problems shooting lead after Jktd or plated causing lead build up, suppose it could happen.

mortre
07-27-2012, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the info. I may get a chance to hit the range Sunday, but doubt I will get to shoot the 45. Bear season opens on the 1st and I've got 0 rounds loaded up for me or the wife. So Sunday will be a rifle day for me. I've (finally) found a load my 7x57 likes, so I need to get the sites adjusted for it. And the NECG receiver site takes me a bit of ammo to get dialed in.

Way to many projects going on right now. Need to load 7x57 and 7mm-08 for hunting season. 400 9mm sized and primed waiting on the last of the plated 130gr. Close to 200 .44 cast, lubed and waiting on sizing dies. 100 30-30 brass sized and primed waiting for me to cast some for it.

I'm stoked about the 30-30, that is what I grew up hunting with. I traded one of my 45's off a few weeks back for a pre-64 win 94 that has not been drilled or abused. So part of my blown gun budget was on a Saeco #316.

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popper
07-27-2012, 01:26 PM
You will need more 30-30 brass when you get that mould. Just too much fun. Did you slug it? May need bigger than .309 - .310 is too small for my marlin.

mortre
07-27-2012, 02:44 PM
Nope, not yet. My plan is to cast a few and measure what they cast out at before I do anything.

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RobS
07-27-2012, 11:12 PM
Thanks for the info. I may get a chance to hit the range Sunday, but doubt I will get to shoot the 45. Bear season opens on the 1st and I've got 0 rounds loaded up for me or the wife. So Sunday will be a rifle day for me. I've (finally) found a load my 7x57 likes, so I need to get the sites adjusted for it. And the NECG receiver site takes me a bit of ammo to get dialed in.

Way to many projects going on right now. Need to load 7x57 and 7mm-08 for hunting season. 400 9mm sized and primed waiting on the last of the plated 130gr. Close to 200 .44 cast, lubed and waiting on sizing dies. 100 30-30 brass sized and primed waiting for me to cast some for it.

I'm stoked about the 30-30, that is what I grew up hunting with. I traded one of my 45's off a few weeks back for a pre-64 win 94 that has not been drilled or abused. So part of my blown gun budget was on a Saeco #316.

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mortre:

It sounds like you are all in........................and you couldn't be at a better place. I'm glad to see another aboard and now your madness begins..................grab ahold.............it's going to be a fun trip for sure. :cbpour:--:bigsmyl2:-----:cbpour:

David2011
07-27-2012, 11:44 PM
Couple of thoughts- The barrel photos show a lot of leftover powder residue which is meaningless IMO. What you swab out will be black or silver. Black is everything else; silver is lead. You already have good advice on how to deal with leading.

Generally speaking, lower powder charges of just about anything will be dirtier than hotter charges of the same powder. As the pressure builds the combustion becomes much more complete.

I shoot Hercules/Alliant 2400 in my .44 Mag Contender. It leaves unburned powder in the chamber even at stiff loads but no leading. A single round of .44 special charged with Win 231 leaves the barrel shiny clean. Why worry about the residue if it's that easy to clean?

David

mortre
07-28-2012, 05:09 AM
I agree with the powder residue comment. That doesn't bother me.

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mortre
08-06-2012, 01:34 AM
Update on the as cast dummy cartridge. The Sig, S.A. 1911 and my full size Wilson will all chamber the dummy as cast. The wifes Wilson doesn't even come close though!

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Gliden07
08-07-2012, 01:16 AM
Good vid on You Tube for sluging a barrel. Its 2 parts. Gent that did vid did what I think is a Great job. He did it for his 9MM but it should work fine for the45 as well. He used the 9mm Case as the slug mold and a Kenetic Bullet puller to get it out. http://youtu.be/KuNoo4m6jso